Discussion topic for Beatrice, the Endless Witch. Feel free to discuss the entirety of Umineko without [spoiler] tags, but please tag references to outside works, providing adequate context in parenthesis. This topic will contain massive spoilers, so if you have not finished reading Umineko yourself proceed with caution.
Like seriously guys, don’t read this topic if you haven’t finished the series yet.
Beatrrice is best girl.
Man, she’s such a troll, and has awesome trollfaces. Even in the original sprites, the trollfaces were awesome. That laugh and that “USHIROMIYA BATORAAAAAAA”… She does a lot of terrible things, but in spite of all that, she’s really a very complex character and I can’t help but love her.
Not only is she a complex character, but she’s also multiple characters.
Ignoring other witches who bear the Beatrice name (such as EVA-Beatrice) we still have Beatrice Castiglioni, Ushiromiya Beatrice, Beato (the one we all think of when we say Beatrice), Beato the Elder, Beato the younger, Yasu, Ushiromiya Lion, Claire, and if you want to get technical, Shannon and Kanon.
Hell, there is a freaking chart to keep track of it all
And that chart doesn’t even include stuff like Virgilia/Kumasawa being the first Beatrice (by creating most of the rumors and teaching Yasu “magic”) and Eva and Ange inhereting the title as EVA-Beatrice and ANGE-Beatrice.
All of that complexity doesn’t even delve into the personality or motivations of any of these Beatos either.
That’s one of Beatrice’s most interesting aspects. There are so many characters in the real and meta world that represent her. At the same time thought they also behave as very different people, despite coming from Yasu. The question is should we talk about characters such as Shannon and Kanon in this analysis, or should talk like that be saved for an in general Yasu thread. (Although that would be a difficult thread to make because of the spoiler nature of the character.)
Either way she’s a very complex character because of all of these facets, and they all make up one big complex character. Beatrice herself is pretty great though. I really like how she treats Battler in the first four episodes, and there are hints that she’s not nearly as cruel as she lets on even that early on. Yeah there’s still a lot of pent up anger and I’m pretty sure she’s getting revenge on Battler in he more crueler moments (particularly the ending of episode 2) but she breaks that cruel character a few times. The first big hints of this are in episode 3, although the entire thing was supposed to be an “act” I do think Beato was somewhat genuine during some of her softer moments in episode 3. When Ange busted in she did seem genuinely conflicted before going right back into troll mode. This is further evidenced at the start of episode 4, where she acts cute again, and tried to genuinely cheer Battler up when she thinks that he was in a sour state due to the last game.
I mean I know all of this is stating the obvious, but I kind of like how in the first four episodes there are hints to her true nature.
Based on the discussion in the spoiler policy thread it seems like both Yasu and Lion will be discussed here. That also means Shannon and Kanon can be discussed in relation to Yasu in this thread (as well as in their own thread).
Yes, feel free to discuss any characters immediately related to Beatrice here, especially Yasu.
We’ll have dedicated Shannon and Kanon topics, but they’ll be specifically reserved for discussion surrounding those characters as they appear in the game.
I’m far from done with Umineko, and correct me if I’m wrong, but Beatrice seems like a narcissistic piece of crap who is so certain that her plan is flawless that she’ll turn mad when youpoint out the obvious defaults of what she did. Other than that, i really like how she is designed and her role in the story. Me hating her so much makes me love her, because, in my experience, when you hate a villain senseless it;s because he’s (or she) well written.
Definitely do not read the other posts in this discussion if you haven’t finished.
Let’s just say we eagerly await your final verdict on Beatrice once you finish all the episodes. It’s a crazy ride 
Judging by my username, I think It’s pretty clear that I absolutely love our Golden Witch. One of my favorite things about Beatrice is the lore that was built around the witch of the forest legends told to the young Ushiromiyas and how all the pieces were strung together to give power to the identity of her as a witch originally. There was context for Beatrice-- important for early game skepticism within the family. The development of the many pieces of the Beatrice identity (Which I am reminded of in the sheer complexity by the chart in @ctom42’s post), is so important to me, especially with the interplay between them. Scenes between Shannon v. Beato and Kanon v. Beato reveal so much internal conflict of will and hopes, and were often some of my my favorites.
I think it probably fits in his discussion better, so I’ll save my thoughts for there, but her dynamic with Ronove is a refreshing part of Banquet and on. Early Beato is great but she did need a bit of grounding towards what she really wanted from the games.
Yeah Beato really needed settle exactly what she wanted by the end of her games with Battler. Did she want revenge, did she want to make peace with battler, did she want him to find out who she was? She seemed genuinely conflicted about what she really wanted, until the end of Alliance, in which she pretty much accepted that she wanted Battler to kill the illusion of the witch, and reach the end of their games. Honestly Her games with Battler ended at a perfect point, and reached the perfect climax in episode 4. I could go on and on about how those games changed battler, and how the later episodes affected him and his character, but I’ll save that for the huge post I’m writing for his thread.
I think Beato was always wishing for Battler to understand her, though there’s no denying she also enjoyed playing the game with him as much as he did. At the end of Alliance she flat out gives up on it because Battler has crushed all her hopes that he’d ever get it; even after four games she put her all into creating she still has no progress to show for it. And then Battler murders her while she plays the role of the evil witch who stole his sister’s family away from her so he doesn’t hesitate (because in reality he’s fallen heads over heels for her at this point). Perfect.
When Battler finally does get it Beato has already died completely. It’s a pretty tragic tale.
Yeah, it really is a sad fate for Beato. It really took Ange dying to get either of them to play seriously near the end there. A lot of the bitterness and anger she held pretty much exhausted and became sadness and hopelessness right before Battler ended her life.
Seeing her as a lifeless doll in episode 5 was one of the most depressing things in the entire visual novel. Pretty much just sitting around to be finished off for good. All brought into this state by battler, who completely destroyed her at the end of Alliance. It doesn’t help that Bernkastel and Erika are also running around wanting to completely destroy her too. This isn’t even getting into the horrible life she’s had as Yasu.
So since I see this getting brought up every now and then, I’d like to hear the community’s thoughts on the question of why was it so important that it was 1986 specifically that Battler returned. As implied by Episode 7, if it had been a year earlier or a year later, the tragedy as we know it would not have happened. Why would that be?
I’m one of the people who brings it up all the time, so I’ll weigh in. The key is the 3 way stalemate that they discuss so much in the trial of the lovers. A two way battle can be decided easily, but a 3 way one is tricky. It’s because Yasu was trapped in that three way struggle that Beatrice decided to bet everything on the roulette and carry out the murders (this is an oversimplification of the motive, but one of the basic premises).
1 year earlier and Kanon and Jessica’s relationship would not have started. Thus it is a two way battle between Beato and Shannon. As is stated there may have been an incident, but it would have been smaller scale. 1 year later and George and Shannon would already have won, Beatrice and Kanon would be no more. Battler’s return would not have caused any real issues.
However the year he returned Kanon and Jessica had already begun to have feelings for each other and George and Shannon were not yet married. Thus Battler’s return turned the two way Battle between Shannon and Kanon, into a 3 way struggle between Beato, Kanon, and Shannon.
The trial of the lovers shows that when you remove Battler from the equation (and thus Beato) Shannon wins out over Kanon in a straight duel. Her relationship had longer to grow and mature.
Wait what.
That’s missing some context, but I think it’s hypothetically possible, even probable. She’s not always certain of herself, of her purpose, of what she really wants, and her objectives which are at odds with themselves are a source of trouble for her in a way that seem quite distinct from her original creator, who had her own contradictory objectives and issues which she had to express in a different way.
I don’t think it’s at all controversial to say that Meta-Beatrice != Yasu though. That’s self-evident.
Well no, I fundamentally disagree. Beatrice embodies literally everything Yasu was trying to accomplish. I fail to see any of those contradictions of which you speak.
One can embody a thing without fully understanding it. That’s a poor counter-argument.
The notion that Beatrice – and Meta-Battler’s – identity is uncertain is recurrent throughout the text. The big one comes in EP3 which is admittedly not referring to Yasu but it’s still relevant; Beatrice herself (that is, Meta-Beatrice) is subject to mood swings that seem to indicate uncertainty; there are multiple Beatrices at points; Battler doubts his own identity so much when Beatrice pulls the Asumu trick that he stops existing; Beatrice “dies,” is brought back by Battler, is different, then learns to become herself again; even Bern and Lambda and Erika get in on it.
It seems more probable that meta-world witches exist due at least in part to issues of uncertainty with their existence and reality which push them to do what they do: Battler and Beatrice are the elevated avatars of fiction who lack a direct line to their creators to nail down things their creators did not clarify; Bern and Lambda aren’t sure at times if they aren’t still entrapped; Erika isn’t sure why she exists or what she’s actually supposed to do; Featherine literally suffered from memory loss that changed her identity. Not wholly knowing yourself is fundamental to the nature of witches.
EDIT: It’s also worth pointing out that we’re told Beatrice’s legend is not wholly created by her original creator. It’s the nature of Forgeries, and if Yasu didn’t write Banquet or Alliance (which seems at least likely given the manga and general tonal changes), then Beatrice’s characterization is clearly being affected by something Yasu never had any access to. She is distinct from her creator in a rather obvious way.
