Umineko - Bernkastel Character Discussion (Full Series Spoilers)

What part of the manga is that from? It’s not that I don’t believe you; it’s just that I’m not that familiar with the manga version.

I can’t recall the actual portion of the manga but there’s a bit where Battler relates his logic about why he’s presenting things to Ange in a certain way instead of just telling her the truth and Bern has an aside at one point about her belief that the truth can strengthen someone even if it’s difficult to accept, and that it is better for Ange in the long term to experience a hard truth than to discard it for something more palatable, which while probably disingenuous on her part is at least a reason of some sort which ties back to her origins and explains why she would have an additional reason beyond “I’m bored” to become personally involved in the way Chiru progresses.

The problem is it’s only barely better-established than the VN and I’m not sure the other episode mangas developed the same idea. There’s also a bit more dialogue in the manga critical of Battler and Beatrice, including an expansion of some of Beatrice’s self-criticism of what they did and what they’re doing. Basically everyone’s motivations make slightly more sense and Battler feels more obviously bad about what he’s doing even as he justifies it.

Well I also think Bern and Lamda are cruel monster (Higurashi spoiler)
but it also make me think what would happen if the cruel Bern end up facing Keiichi in some way or another in a game how would she act. Well beside saying his luck suck for him to end up in another endless hell. We know that Keiichi was a key part to Rika freedom. We can also say that the miracle could of bet Keiichi getting his memory back from another world which would be the starting point to Rika overcoming her cruel fate.

I would love to ask Ryukishi07 what the logic error was and what the miracle was and what I said about Keiichi facing Bern.

How do you cover spoilers?

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Yeah, but I personally think the parts in Umineko about Higurashi being just a story might just be there for fun, and not meant to be taken as gospel.

For example, I think we can all agree that it’s ridiculous that Lambda wouldn’t know what the ending of Higurashi was.

And if Higurashi really was a story in Umineko, then shouldn’t Battler have made the connection between Rika and Bern? The name ‘Frederica Bernkastel’ appears outright in Higurashi.

…That is pretty funny about Tohya and Ikuko making their cat the villain, though.

@someoneunknown I’ve actually wondered the same thing myself. (Higurashi spoilers) All in all, Keiichi is so absent in Umineko that it’s almost glaring. Not that I would expect him to be mentioned by name, but given that he was so instrumental in Rika’s escape from fate, you’d think he’d at least be mentioned in a vague way, especially when the topic of Bern’s past comes up.

Bern also takes credit for coming up with the “demons eating popcorn” thing, but that was only said by one character in Higurashi, and it sure wasn’t Rika. :yum:

By the way, Lambda compares Bern’s experiences in the logic error to the infinite monkey theorem, but if Bern’s experiences were comparable to that, then (Higurashi spoiler) doesn’t that mean it should have taken a lot longer than 100 years for her to get free?

Edit: (Higurashi spoilers) [spoiler] So I was watching the video of Ryukishi’s third panel at ACen last year, and it looks like he does consider Higurashi’s Frederica and Umineko’s Bernkastel to be the same entity. Because the questioner asks about Frederica specifically, but Ryukishi talks about her splitting off from Rika in Saikoroshi-hen and becoming Umineko’s Bernkastel. (Although I can’t hear how the interpreter translated it to him, so I can’t be sure she was completely accurate in conveying it.)

It’s true that Frederica didn’t really come across as evil in Higurashi…but Ryukishi says he made her evil in Umineko to mess with his friend BT (whose favorite character was Rika), so maybe he hadn’t decided she was evil yet. [/spoiler]

By the way, a silhouette of a Bernkastel image from Ougon Musou Kyoku is used in Higurashi Sui to represent Frederica.

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I actually covered all of this in another post. I’m bad at forums, can I link it here? Or I can summarize.

[spoiler]1. Featherine was unquestionably Bernkastel’s master. Featherine subjected her piece to an infinite monkey conundrum. Bernkastel’s former self was absolutely Rika, based on tons of evidence from author testimony to straight out saying it in the manga. Bernkastel’s former piece self was definitely locked in a game with Lambdadelta, based on character bios for both. Rika necessarily began in Hinamizawa, given statements in both series.

Therefore Lambdadelta was the game master who Rika struggled against, though the game started off as Featherine’s. Which brings us to 2.[/spoiler]

2. The unanticipated actions of Lambadadelta created the logic error, an entire game without solution. She fundamentally ruined the game board in a way similar to what Bernkastel and Erika attempted in Episode 6. Her actions “created” Oyashiro, a corrupted version of Featherine.

3. The miracle in this case isn’t a straightforward “what” as much as it is the chance of a little girl defeating the highly trained and specialized forces of Tokyo and the willpower of Miyo Takano. It was an infinitesimally low chance, but an inevitable given an eternity of trying.

4. Punishment for a logic logic error is served in a separate timespace, or at least not in linear step with the events connected to it. See Battler’s logic error which took place concurrent to, before, and after his role as game master. In this case, Lambdadelta served her time in hell along side Bernkastel, as Satoko. The two have a strong dichotomy, Satoko and Rika were tortured by their metaworld incarnations of Bernkastel and Lambdadelta. Forward and backwards. This created the twisted and perverted sense of love they have for each other. Why mutual sadomasochism is their strongest bond.

The reason they run is that Higurashi, as played in the first 8 Episodes, is only fixable by pegging the logic error the “sin” (the greatest sin a game master can commit), on a piece or player.

That’s why now that Umineko is over, we see more and more “alternative” Higurashi settings. To find a way to play the game board so that Miyo Takano, Lambdadelta, Rika, and Bernkastel can all exist without having everyone they love die. I think that’s what Dice Killing was about, in large part. Showing that even saving Miyoko kills off the characters as we know them.

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I think that it’s a pretty huge hint about how time progresses for beings of that order! Lambdadelta still hasn’t come up with a new solution for it, so she’s “still playing it”. Hearing who the culprit is from Bernkastel, who has solved it, might be akin to hearing one’s own reality denied in the red.

(Higurashi spoilers) 1. The game started off as Featherine’s game against whom?

2. Hmm, what are you basing this on, exactly?

3. It wasn’t really an eternity, though. In fact, it was apparently only 100 years. Also, I think it ruins the message of Higurashi if Rika only won because it was “inevitable.”

4. Why Satoko, of all people? Because they’re both girls with short, blonde hair?

Personally, at least to me, while the information in the original Visual Novel doesn’t really excuse Bernkastel in the traditional moral sense, it very much humanizes her actions to a degree if you look closely. Both what Umineko states about her being trapped in a logic error akin to a monkey at a typewriter blindly smashing at the keys and writing a masterpiece, as well as (Higurashi Spoilers) The details of how she went through loop after loop in higurashi of watching her friends go mad and kill each other and ending up dying in a rather brutal way in every loop except for the last/ Not only that, but the personality that is Frederica Bernkastel never got to enjoy the spoils of victory as she left the body of Rika after Saikoroshi-hen, which meant she did not even get the opportunity to enjoy the hard work that she put in to creating a miracle.

After she was freed from the Logic Error, she was probably quite distraught and damaged, and when Featherine found her, she ‘taught her the taste of meat’ as it was stated in the end of Episode 6. That is, she was taught very much something similar to what she had taught Erika, she was taught to cause others suffering to deal with the very real issues she herself had from the Logic Error that was Featherine’s fault in the first place. And we see that Bernkastel resents Featherine for it, and even fears her, which given the normal personality we see from Bernkastel, says volumes about Featherine as a character off-screen.

Personally, because of Bernkastel’s personality, I would say the very fact that she puts up with half of what Lambdadelta does to her, especially in some of the TIPS, such as Whose Tea Party from Tsubasa as well as the ??? from EP 8 indicate that Bernkastel really does deeply care for Lambdadelta in her own way. Witches are alien creatures who would be very well comparable to the Faeries of old, so while their perceptions about something such as love would be probably extremely different than Humans and be quite twisted in our perspective, I do not doubt that whatever passes for love among witches is what Bern and Lambda have, and a very deep form of it as well.

Another thing of note is the resting trauma eyes from Bern, and while they may simply be a stylistic choice, I do not think that is the case. With how much trauma she is said to have gone through in the time leading up to the present, it would be a small wonder if she wasn’t deeply traumatized by both the events of the logic error as well as whatever horrific training that Featherine put her through. I shall reiterate that what she did was definitely wrong on the scale of humans, but I would argue that on a deeper inspection it at least becomes understandable, if not downright sympathetic like someone along the likes of the Greek Heroine Medea, or (Higurashi Spoilers) Higurashi’s own Miyo Takano.

As for her role in the events of Chiru, I would argue they make coherent sense even before the retcon without just attributing it to her being the villain of the story. It was rather stated that she had a tendency to be an absolutely sore loser, and we could see that in how she treated Erika. So it is no small wonder that when Featherine gave her the opportunity to tear apart Beatrice’s game and torment Battler and Beatrice, who had squarely handed her a loss, she would jump on the opportunity and take it to avenge the humiliation she was given.

On the topic of boredom, it is a very strong motivator for Voyagers in general, as it literally can kill them, but especially for Bernkastel. She, and probably many other voyagers, constantly seek entertainment as a sort of nepenthe to escape from the horrors of her past, and the cruelty is just how she knows to do it best, as that is what she was taught by Featherine. Which we know she resents, so perhaps deep down, she hates what she is doing but does it anyway as she cannot bear to face the horrors of her past and indulges in the vile ways she had been taught by Featherine much like an addict indulges in their drug of choice.

And perhaps this is another point where her love for Lambdadelta comes in. Perhaps being around someone like her gives her entertainment and a way to forget about her past without indulging in those terrible habits of hers as much, and allows her to be more who she is. Or perhaps having a clear enemy and polarizing the fight contributes to her enjoyment as well which makes her less in need of cruelty to run away from her past. An alternate way of coping that keeps her from getting worse than she already is.

Or I could be completely off-base and just letting my own biases shape how the character appears to me, and am looking way too deeply into it. I’m interested to hear what others think of my take on Bern, so feel free to tear it apart, I’m tough enough to handle anything really.

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(Higurashi spoilers) Well, I never really got the impression that Bern was booted out of Rika against her will in Saikoroshi. For example, let’s look at the Frederica Bernkastel personality before she split from Rika.

(Higurashi Kamikanshi spoilers) [spoiler] Rika in Kamikanshi is so much like Bern that I’ve joked that Ryukishi wrote so much Bern in Umineko that he forgot how to write Rika. Rika in Kamikanshi only cares about two things: being amused, and winning. She couldn’t care less about her friends (not even Satoko).

This is the side that I think split off from Rika in Saikoroshi. So it seems unlikely that she’d be happy living a peaceful life with her friends. (Not that Bern is terribly happy now anyway.)

This would also fit with what Ryukishi said about Bern being the evil part of Rika. [/spoiler]

Or at least, that’s how I see things… I could be completely wrong.

Mmm, you make a fair point but I do think that there is that sort of element of not knowing what you have lost until you do. I can see that losing that happiness, losing that bit of being able to enjoy the rewards of her victory could really push her over into the deep end. Theres also the issue of it not necessarily being forced, I get the feeling that it could have been acase of not realizing it until it was too late, especially with what you have shared.

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Her freely making that choice but then regretting it later is an interpretation that could work for me.

This isn’t really related, but I was doing some Umineko rereading recently. When Bern is talking to Battler after the purple truth game in Ep8, she says that the crucial difference between them is that to Battler, endless torture was something he could just shrug off, but to her, it wasn’t that simple. Unlike Lambda to Erika in Ep6, Bern surprisingly doesn’t try to downplay Battler’s experiences; she just says that the same thing had a different effect on both of them.

So I felt like I had to give Bern some credit for that.

Anyway, I feel like I have a better understanding of Bern from reading your long Bern post, so thanks for your thoughts!

Indeed. Bern is a rather complex character and unless you are really looking, it becomes rather easy to pin her as far less complex than she really is thanks to her backstory and what makes her more complex being more spread out and vague, rather than (higurashi spoilers) Takano’s huge backstory all at once at the beginning of matsuribayashi I’m glad you liked my insights, I hope perhaps others can come to appreciate her more from them as well.

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While I feel that people unfairly simplify Bernkastel’s character to just being a simple edgelord, I can understand how easy it is to make that mistake. Still…

What makes Umineko Bern so interesting is her approach to storytelling, her love for Lambda, how her power works, her personality, and her role as the villain. While Bern definitely had beef with Beatrice (an aspect I wish could’ve been explored more, but is understandable) in regards to Battler and Ange, while she is certaintly their enemy, she is kind of low-key helping them out. Bern is almost a mirror image to Ange and Battler if you think about it as well. (Battler especially!)
Her approach to storytelling is also interesting as well. As @Restkastel said, she was trapped in a horrible situation but ended up making a masterpiece out of it. During the time Umineko came out and ended, many stories that were popular or regarded as great were the ones that involved a lot of misery for the protagonists and had villains that were the scum of scum.
While I don’t know if Ryukishi intended this or not, Bern might have been a response to these types of villains. She presents herself as being awful and irredeemable, but you get a hint that she’s much more three dimensional than she appears.

Going on to Bern the storyteller, it is quite fascinating. In EP7 after all the build up to what everyone thought was going to be a cruel and heartless game, we got something that was thoughtful, calm, and surprisingly considerate. Of course, while everything went to shit in the Tea Party (and even then its arguable that Bern did it for Ange’s sake, even if she was getting off on her suffering) why would Bern go to all that effort to make a game so peaceful? If anything, the game in EP8 would represent Bern more considering how she presents herself. So which gameboard represents Bernkastel as a person more?

Another one of the many things that makes Bern so interesting is her powers. In the first TIP, her powers are described as “breaking her heart whenether she imparts a miracle.” Why is that? Why would the heartless cruel Witch have her heart broken? I theorize it is due to her relationship with the truth.
As Rika, she was forced to undergo endless torture for the sake of Featherine/Hanyuu/whoever. While it is true that ‘Rika,’ was able to escape the endless June, ‘Bernkastel,’ was not. She had to watch another part of herself obtain a happy ending while she didn’t. When you are faced with such astronomically low odds of succeeding, it rises to the level of Red Truth. So perhaps when Bern imparts a miracle, the reason why her heart is broken is because she knows that some part of the person she is aiding will not escape unscathed. They won’t get all they bargained for, and they’ll have to live with that.

(I’ll be continuing this analysis later by elaborating on my previous points and going into the humanizing aspects of Bern’s character and her relationship with the Truth.)

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One way you could look at it is that the reason Bernkastel giving “miracle” break her heart each time is the fact she did not get to enjoy her happy ending only the last Rika did and it does hurt people to make other happy well you yourself are not.

The question you must ask is would you want to make someone else happy well yourself is not or make them suffer like you?

Lots of people who are suffering would just want to make someone else suffer like them over making then happy do to thing like envy or jealousy of there happiness but there are people who will just be happy making someone else happy even if they are suffering.

That’s actually a pretty interesting take on Bern’s character. Ryukishi often delves into the darker side of selflessness, and it makes Bern even more sympathetic and a bit tragic if you can see her agonizing over the fact the fact that she had to give others happiness, while forever being denied hers.
If I was in her position, I would certaintly almost feel hesitant at making someone happy if I couldn’t for eternity.

I saw this really interesting comment on reddit I thought you guys might enjoy.
It basically talks about the heart of Bern’s motivations, and how she could be an avatar for Tohya.

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That is a pretty cool post.

For now I’m still pretty much in taking her at face value mode myself, because I can absolutely see her doing what she does simply due to her personality and own approach to the story. It’s not that she doesn’t get it, it’s that she just doesn’t care. I like the idea of someone like that being the antagonist of the story.

Though I do like thinking about how Bern came to be who she is in Umineko compared to her origin in Higurashi. That line of hers in the Episode 7 Tea Party, “Miracles are no more than fantasy!”, always felt like a big clue in that regard. (Higurashi Spoilers) Did she perhaps realize, from the metaworld, that the miracle she got so invested in as Rika on the gameboard was no miracle at all, but rather simply the obvious outcome because Higurashi is a fantasy story, in essence completely devaluing what she worked so hard for and was so deeply invested in? I think it would explain her approach to miracles just being “someone’s design” as she mentions in the Episode 6 Hidden Tea Party in Umineko.

I really love this interpretation of Bern’s behaviour. I’m happy people like this exist, because whenever I read posts about her, most of the people bash her for literally every misfortune in Umineko.
It’s sad to see that more people would rather excuse (for example) Kyrie’s actions than Bern’s (even though there are much less clues regarding theories about Kyrie not being so bad).

Personally, I am currently a supporter of ‘Tohya’s avatar’ theory, and I suppose there are sufficient clues for it [At least for Bern not being that bad…Examples? Well, they were there since EP6 — the first being the fact that Bern knew Beato would come (“I bet she comes miraculously”) that Battler’s logic error could be solved, the second is the meat on the plate changing into a plate of biscuits and, at the end, back into meat in ??? — of course, that could be interpreted other way than I do — and Bern’s disgust at the task Featherine gave her, and of course ‘fellow monsters’. Then we’ve got the very nature of EP7 — hiring a competent detective (known from his focus on motive and ‘heart’!), going through all the trobule of finding Lion from one Fragment of 2,578,917, even introducing Lion, and giving an avatar so that Sayo ‘wouldn’t have to expose the pitiful form’, and, of course, a very tactful treatment of difficult issues of Sayo and giving her opportunity to confess her sins.

During the EP7 Tea Party, when Lion asked the reason for the reason for doing what Bern did, she said it was because ‘she wanted to get back at her’. Then, she said she would send Lion to the moment just before Kyrie’s murder and she’ll make Beato watch that. Honestly, I find it odd. After all, Clair (Beatrice) was already long dead at that point. Isn’t doing all of this for getting back at someone, who can’t even witness the revenge, a bit of overkill, even for Bern?
When we add Will’s comeback, everything becomes even more fishy. Also, at the end of EP7, he said ‘I thought decent witches didn’t exist, but I might have to change that theory’, and in TP — “There was no way you’d end things on a happy note.” While this may not be an argument in itself, if we combine this with the fact that Will’s actually a Bern’s piece and Bern has the ability to close off any part of a Fragment she desires (she showed it at the beginning of EP7) it seems…strange, doesn’t it?

Why would she do something like that to Lion, though? If we consider that Lion, as Will stated, was the main character of the episode and the fact that it was never specified in red that Lion died there (especially that the Fragment is suddenly cut off), AND what Bern told at the end (“collect dust, unable even to die, and disappear”, and then “Come kitties, I won’t tell you to kill them” — I think that was Bern’s way of refusing to tell the viewers what happened later to Lion after Kyrie pulled the trigger)… I think I may have a certain theory about that.

And there’s of course whole Ange’s arc (EP8). There is a good quote I’ve recently spotted — “I promise to release Ange after the game ends. I swear it on our relationship” (sth along these lines) – Bern to Lambda — and then — “My game is far from over” (or sth like that). There’s the thing about Lambda seeing the script — if Bern is Featherine’s “Reader”, and she also is a Voyager, I don’t think it is a big stretch to say that there’s a big possibility that Bern also saw it. And, of course, the thing at the end — both Battler and Ange ‘dying’, and of course the way the things end in ‘???’.
And, obviously, the well-known quote 'It was fun being an antagonist"…wait, wasn’t she claimed to be a sore loser? Or maybe, she has achieved her goal? Combining all of the above facts(or clues?) with all the things people said earlier in this topic about Bern-chan’s backstory…feel free to make your own conclusions :slight_smile: ] (Sorry for disorderliness, I’m in a hurry)

These things might all be my presumptions… However, I think I just can’t bring myself to hate Bern :> Still, I can understand why people don’t like her.

Even Ryukishi himself said in an interview that our view of Bern can change drastically, depending on whether we have love for her or not. I hope her character will be expanded upon in the next WTC series (she is supposed to appear, isn’t she?) and she won’t be playing the villain next time, as Lambda said it :>
“Without love, it cannot be seen.”

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What color would you guys say is Bernkastel’s hair in both OG and PS3 sprites?