Umineko Episode 2 Spoiler-Free General

Hmmmm. Ok I still haven’t collected all my thoughts on this Episode. Things be crazy in here and I wanted to try and at least figure something out. However, since there isn’t much coming to mind in terms of theories on who could have done it I think I’ll just start writing and see what happens.

The first thing that I notice is that Kanon sure seems to pop up a lot in a lot of these murders. He is there in Jessica’s murder, Kumasawa and Nanjo’s, George, Gohda and Shannon’s too. Add to this the fact that anybody could really have done the first twilight. Now, to be fair the scenes where Kanon shows up are generally clouded with a bunch of magic and butterflies. It may be that he is an illusion too for the third and fourth rounds of murders. However, I don’t want to overlook the fact that he certainly appears both times. The servants also certainly believe that it is Kanon for a while in the kitchen. The second twilight then starts posing problems though, if we believe that Kanon is the culprit. After all not only do we get the red truth that says that Kanon was killed in that room (which we might be able to explain as a kind of metaphor) but Battler points out that his master key is in Jessica’s pocket.

Now, there are a few things that are weird about some of these rooms. I’m planning on doing some little visual presentations and finishing those up for everyone tomorrow but I wanted to get some things out there. The first one is about the chapel. The witch speaks this red

truth about Jessica’s room

`No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key’

This is specified in the case of Jessica’s room. It is also specified in the servant’s room. However, this is not specified in the case of the chapel. This means another solution exists to the chapel. The killer got the key, unlocked the chapel, gave the key to Maria and then went on to kill the first 6. After doing that they used some unspecified trick to lock the door of the chapel. Clumsy, yeah but another interpretation. Beatrice’s refusal to repeat something in red is not necessarily confirmation that it is so.

The fourth round of deaths is possibly the most frustration, red truth-wise. The way that Beatrice expresses the truths is all wonky. All the other times the wording has been straight forward but now it is very odd indeed. She doesn’t state things very clearly. There is almost certainly something that is very suspicious about that.

Lastly, I notice that one of the red truths is trying to mislead us

‘The original key to the parlor is sealed in the servants’ room’

Ok, so the original key to the parlor is sealed in the servant’s room. So what? Earlier, Beato, you also said that there were several keys to the servant’s room. Why could the same not be true of the parlor? In fact, I would imagine that there would be more for the parlor than just about any other room in the house. It really isn’t a big deal that the ‘original key’ to the parlor is locked up. However, she then goes on to say that

‘So unlocking it without the master key is impossible!’

I’m not sure why it’s impossible but I guess she clearly says it is. I’m not sure what to make of this little problem. It definitely seems possible to me but we have her saying it definitely is impossible without the master key. Any thoughts?

Random observation: every time Beatrice actually appears to multiple people, it’s in a closed space of some kind, accompanied by butterflies, and what looks like… smoke.

Now, this is probably a complete rubbish theory, but hear me out here. Let’s assume the culprit has access to some kind of gas, with some form of effect ranging from hallucinations, to slight dizziness. It doesn’t have to be particularly potent, just something that would cloud someone’s mind just enough, and it can’t have a particularly noticeable smell (eg. leaving the stove running wouldn’t do it).

By the time Beatrice actually appears, everybody is frightened. The image of the witch is strong in everybody’s minds, they’re scared and starting to doubt things. On some level, you might even say they’d want the witch to be real, because that would be less scary than not knowing.

So let’s stage a witch sighting. You’d let this gas slowly fill whatever room they’re planning for “Beatrice” to appear in, slowly enough that the people in it wouldn’t necessarily notice. Then, you waltz in, wearing a dress, laugh like a maniac and wave your hands around.

Under these conditions, what they will see is the witch appearing before them. Now, it’s very important that you’re very flashy - go full chuuni, be everything people expect the witch to be like. Keep their focus on the image of the witch, and away from any details - such as the mask you’re naturally wearing. And make sure to talk, a whole lot. Because “seeing a witch” is something that can be dismissed. But a coherent story, from multiple people, who all “saw the witch appear before them”? That’s hard to explain away. And that kind of story spreads, quickly, to people who have no way of verifying the source, but multiple eyewitness accounts.

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A decent theory. One problem might be, though, that Rosa and Maria saw the witch in the rose garden. This would literally be impossible to fill with the theoretical gas. I had an even weirder theory at some point thinking that the roses were dusted with an hallucinogen, so when everyone started smelling it the culprit would be able to pretend to be the witch. I’m not really keen on this theory but it struck me as kind of funny.

My first and foremost takeaway is that I wish I would have had a couple weeks or months or so in between Ep1 and this. I thought about Ep1 really hard, and I just was not ready, in the right state-of-mind to enjoy this as much as I would have liked to. There was scene after scene after scene that I knew deep down I would have normally loved to death, but I was just not in the right place to appriciate.

^Me, to the T[quote=“Rabla, post:16, topic:27”]
Don’t deny Beatrice from BEHIND A MAGIC SHIELD, SHANNON. THAT DOESN’T HELP ANYONE. Also Kanon the sword reveal is cool as fuck but I still wish you’d lower your damn arm.
[/quote]

Same

Perhaps my favorite favorite scene in this episode was the fight of Beatrice and her demons vs Shannon, George, and Gohda. Not only because the fantasy and chase scenes are so much fun, or because everything was described so well that I could picture it perfectly in my head, or that Shannon in serious mode is badass. But because I love the moment where Beatrice loses all control over Shannon being able to love and be loved. I can tell that this is a huuuuuuuge insight into Beatrice’s inner (past?) character.

The problem with that is, its almost impossible to find a weak point when you dont even know what the rules and objectives are. It doesnt matter if its possible or not if you dont know how to arrange everything.

Of course that doesnt mean I wont try though. If even Battler can come back after submitting to such an extent, then I can certainly overcome my own urges to give in.

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That’s the spirit @Yerian.

Ok so after much procrastination I’ve come up with this:




It’s super basic and doesn’t convey as much detail as I’d like it to but it should sort of serve its purpose. I didn’t make one for the parlor because I didn’t like the lack of details that we have for that room and I didn’t want to mislead with my own interpretation. I hope these help somebody.

Now I’ve had a theory bouncing around in my head for a while and I wanted to throw it out there. Could there be a collaboration going on between Genji, Gohda and Shannon? It seems like they could easily have done the first three rounds of murders. Genji then betrays the other three and kills them. Now, of course someone will ask about keys. How could Genji have done anything after giving up his master key? The answer is simple, he takes other keys when we aren’t looking. While in the servant’s room he takes a few extra keys from the box, in case he needs them. Then he can still access many door without having to worry about not having a master key. He could have just stolen a key to the servant’s room and gone back there while he was by himself to get any other keys he needs. It fits pretty well. There is, however, one puzzle that it has a very hard time explaining. How do Gohda, Shannon and George die? The doors and windows are locked from the inside and there are no hiding places in the room. How could this be done at all. I’m still working that one out. It seems impossible for anyone, not just Genji. It is possible that it is a murder-suicide but that is not clear and seems like a cheat. I’m not saying that it couldn’t happen, but I would like to look for other ways first.

That’s all I have for now. Let’s have a good podcast everyone.

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From your observation, it makes it sound like the culprit(s) got his/her/their bag of tricks from Jonathan Crane. :smile:

I made the same observation in my Beatrice post, and I figure that Kinzo has a lot to do with that past as well. Heck, screw solving the mystery, I wanna know more about Beatrice! X3

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With the exception of the scene with Rosa and Maria at the very start, and I believe Kyrie in the entrance hall, everyone only directly encounters Beatrice when they die, right?

Meta-fiction wise you could argue those scenes are just lies, and the characters can’t make any claim to the alternative because they’re dead.

So that leaves, what, Rosa and Kyrie as the culprits? Maria is easily influenced and I don’t believe she’s actually evil or anything. They’re the only two to “meet” Beatrice.

Though the thing with Kanon returning after death is kind of what.

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I think you need to draw a distinction between what’s clearly supernatural and what’s plausible. Golden butterflies and demon battles? Probably supernatural. A woman who looks a lot like Beatrice walking through the foyer? Much more believable.

Accepting Beatrice as the witch of the portrait isn’t the same as accepting that someone who looks like her is walking around. It’s not a condition for your loss. Or is there grounds to deny even that person?

Beatrice appearing on the gameboard has certainly spiced things up.

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The 12:00 am scene (in which they show the whereabouts of the characters) often excludes some characters. I’ll replay it tonight and look at it again. I wonder if this is a good indicator / hint on who the culprit is?

UPDATED:
-So Shannon, Nanjo, and Kumasawa’s whereabouts weren’t shown during the first midnight. So they were clearly suspicious imo and here’s my theory on the chapel murder:

  1. Nanjo and Kumasawa were in the guest house during that night, so it was highly likely that they could’ve stolen the envelope+key from Maria when she was asleep.

  2. Shanon murdered the 6 since:
    2.1 She, along with the “Kimzo Servants” (Kanon and Genji) seemed to possess some sort of martial arts skill, thus having the capability to kill 6 people single handedly
    2.2 She hated Natsuhi and Eva for obvious reasons.
    2,3 Hideyoshi would’ve been an obstacle to her marriage with George so she’d kill him as well, not to mention that George can succeed his father after Hideyoshi’s death, thus marrying her without any oppositions.
    2.4 As for the others, she simply didn’t want to leave witnesses behind, so she killed the rest.

  3. Nanjo was the one who cut the stomaches open, pulled the entrails out and filled the stomachs with candys. Only a doctor like Nanjo could have had such surgical precision to perform such technical tasks.

  4. The culprits then locked the door from the outside with the Chapel Key, then stuck it back to Maria’s handbag afterwards, thus making it a “closed room murder”

I would also like to mention, 2 of Beatrice’s Portraits (the original one in the fancy dress from Episode 1 and the one in uniform) also seem odd to me. I have 2 theories:

http://www.baka-raptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Beatrice_Portrait.png

https://d2qdztz5tk5zxi.cloudfront.net/original/1X/91b43da64701c53be1444079e43a3be4d6ecec44.jpg

  1. The people (Kyrie and others) who saw the 19th person (Beatrice in uniform) and alluded her resemblance to the uniform portrait, weren’t sane at all.

  2. Tthe 19th person (the Beatrice lookalike in the uniform) was either a descendant or / and imposter of Beatrice. Beatrice’s original portrait had been switched to the schoolgirl portrait by the 19th person to strengthen her own resemblance to with the one in the portrait.

After all nobody except for Kinzo knew how Beatrice truly looked like and Kinzo never left his study room until the end of episode 2, thus he was totally unaware that the portraits had been switched.

Also ,Beatrice in the original portrait had reddish brown hair whilst the Beatrice in school uniform had blonde hair. Thus I’m confident that the “19th person” in the school uniform was a Beatrice imposter.

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Huh. I admit: I was partially too distracted by how attractive she was to notice anything, but I assumed both portraits were blonde; I just attributed the different looks to different shading and coloring in the artwork, given how dark the first one was compared to how light the second one was.

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I didn’t even think about this, but now that you mention it, doing something like that without just making a mess out of it isn’t easy. The human body is complicated, and just cutting everywhere until you run out of stuff to cut isn’t really an option - some of this stuff is tough.

He’s not necessarily the only one who could have done it though; any biology student could probably have pulled it off, though Nanjo is the only one confirmed to have such an education.

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I have an objection to nobody knowing what Beatrice looked like. All of the servants, Krauss, Natsuhi and Jessica would have seen the portrait every day. Particularly the servants since they would have had to clean the portrait fairly often as Shannon herself says in the opening parts of the episode. They, at least, would certainly notice if the portrait was switched. The picture had only been up for about 2 and a half years (according to episode 1) but I think that’s enough time for people to remember what it looks like. It may be possible that the painting was painted to look like the imposter Beatrice (assuming that she is an imposter) in the first place though. While I guess only Kinzo knew what she ‘truly’ looked like all of the servants would have known what the painting looked like. The blond hair was a really good pick up though.

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I always assumed the “new” Portrait wasn’t real, though.

If it was ever changed it would of been done right in front of Kyrie when they show it change for the first time “magically”, and the background of the entrance hall continues to show the original portrait.

Is the new portrait of Beatrice not just something for the Player’s perspective?

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I agree with Rabla on this one. Unlike last episode, I dont believe that the new one ever gets shown during a “the characters walked up and looked at the portrait” scene. And I think the old portrait even gets shown a couple time later, so I dont think this represents a physical change.

The portrait, in Ep1, was really the entire representation of Beatrice’s ‘existence’. So now that the way the reader sees Beatrice’s existence in a different light (with her supposedly showing up in the house and all), the portrait change represents that switch.

Besides, even if you claim that no one else knew the portrait well enough or was paying attention, I am convinced that Maria would have said something if this had happened. Thats just her personality.

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An opening move. Typically your initial opening moves would not be to flaunt the queen’s presence… Unless, of course, it is believed the opponent will be unable to take control of the board. Maybe the opponent is just pitied, even.

In this episode, the 19th person’s presence is confirmed by several of the board’s pieces, but not by the challenger, Battler, himself. (Aside: A game of chess where some pieces are “invisible” would be interesting… Battle-chess? Hmm…) Despite that confirmation several of the pieces, including Rosa who has seen this 19th person herself, doubt each other rather than this newcomer who should be more suspicious to them. Indeed, after Jessica leaving to pick a fight with the witch, we next find her dead. Wouldn’t you immediately suspect “the 19th person did it?” So why wasn’t that the immediate conclusion?

What I’m getting at, is that it seems odd for someone to be so uncharacteristically suspicious of those close to them, rather than someone already established as being suspicious. The narrative points this general theme out at several points even. Especially with Battler bringing a particular level of attention and focus to that near, I think, the end of this episode.

My opinion is that something happened between when Rosa was visiting with Kinzo, Shannon, and Genji, and when she returned. The narrative makes a point of telling us a golden butterfly happened to touch her shoulder right before then. That happening is vague, and so the conclusions you can draw from it are broad, leaving little room for specifics without great insight. Giving a conclusion would likely be the same as revealing your own biases.

Personally, as I stated previously for episode one, I think that magic exists but that its existence does not affect the core of the mysteries. Given that disposition, you could relax wary neurons by just throwing your hands up in the air, jumping to the conclusion “Magic!” However, that feels not much different than saying “I don’t know!” After all, it’s an excuse to stop thinking. (That’s not to say that ascertaining one theory to be more probable than alternatives is the same as giving up, though.) Since that feels like a rather apathetic solution for a problem with undetermined value, it seems prudent not to suspend thought on it just yet.

To reiterate: While I have reason to believe that magic does exist to some degree within the gameboard, I am uncertain as to whether it would be an acceptable solution to the problem of the sudden strangeness which Rosa exhibits. Further, it seems uncertain as to whether this strangeness is just an error in my own perception of her or not. There are cheap reasons to justify my belief that this isn’t merely an erratic impression. Alas, none of them would work from within the gameboard.

So, based on the vaguely baseless assumption that Rosa’s seemingly strange personality shift upon visiting Kinzo’s study has reasonable utility for “solving” at least a few events later in the episode, it seems prudent not to jump to any conclusion just yet. (Incidentally, it would have also been prudent not to have such a long run-on sentence, or any run-on sentence for that matter. Adjectives and verbosity are fun though.)

Without committing to this line of thought specifically, perhaps Rosa saw or heard something regarding Beatrice’s nature which caused her to doubt the authenticity of there being a 19th person. There are some lines and actions later on which would likely contradict this, but I have not yet looked thoroughly at that.


Considering how many ambiguities there are, and how many possibilities exist due to that alone, the introduction of The Red Truth is extraordinarily helpful. However, the person who speaks the red truth is still our adversary in this match. It would likely be best to consider it as a tool for speaking half-truths. What reason is there to believe that the whole-truth for any aspect would ever be spoken by an opponent?

Keeping that in mind, I think that it is critical to look at what isn’t stated in a red truth rather than just looking at what was stated. It is like a magician waving their hand, saying “Look here!” to distract their audience from the trick.


Twilight 1: Chapel

Krauss, Natsuhi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi, and Eva are dead. Their identities are easily verified within reason.

Compared to the first twilight in episode one, the location and some victims/survivors are different.

The following victims here were also victims in episode one: Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss.
The following are victims of this twilight taken from both episodes, so far: Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Eva, Gohda, Shannon.

A quick summary of red-truths and what I’ll refered to as “refused-truths,” here:

RED: "Regardless of whether they were alive or dead, the six definitely entered through the door."
RED: "Only one key to the chapel exists."
RED: "It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel with any thing but the chapel’s key."
RED: "When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit."
RED: "The six definitely entered through ‘this front door’."
RED: "This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria’s handbag…and from that obtained the genuine key to the chapel."
RED: "The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria."
refused: "That envelope was completely under Maria’s supervision until Aunt Rosa opened it."
refused: "No one was able to touch Maria’s handbag until Aunt Rosa took out the envelope."
RED: “The envelope I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing.”

Twilight 2: Jessica’s room

This is a “bit different” from episode one… Instead of Eva and Hideyoshi, who have so far never made it past this twilight anyway, the victim is Jessica. As far as Battler is aware, Kanon isn’t dead yet. (Though this is later cleared up with a red truth that Kanon was killed in that room.) Also, we’re shown how they were killed!?

Well, at this point I feel like we’re just seeing “how they would have been killed if it were done with magic” with Ryukishi subtly saying “your goal is still to try to figure out an alternative plain-old humans-only explanation.” Though that’s just how I’m viewing it, and that could be entirely wrong. I don’t trust perspectives in 07th works.

(Speaking of perspectives, there were so many perspective changes in this episode! I swear there was one scene where the perspective changed three times in one page. Well, that’s an exaggeration, but there were at least two scenes where the perspective changed twice on a single page. Evens out, right? H-hey, I’m credible, I swear!)

Anyway. Let’s have a quick look at the red- and refused-truths for this round:

RED: “The only master keys are the ones held by the servants, one key each.”
(However, there are two more servants not on this island, at least.)
refused(?): "Kanon-kun had a master key on him."
RED: "There are absolutely no types of hidden doors. This door is the only way in or out. The only way to lock this door is with Jessica’s single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant. The window is locked from the inside."
RED: "Kanon was killed in this room."
refused: "Kanon-kun’s corpse is in this room."
refused: "The last time it was locked was due to a master key."
RED: "When locked, it does not permit any form of entry. No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key."
RED-later: "When Jessica’s corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica’s room. The corpse of Jessica is also included."
RED-later: “Therefore, both in the case involving Jessica’s room and the one involving this servant room, no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding.”

Note that I added in “later” truths here.

NITPICKING:

  • Kanon was killed in this room.” When? Keep in mind that I don’t trust the magical narratives.
  • The only way to lock this door is with Jessica’s single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant.” Nothing is said about how one might lock the window.

TANGENT: Of wolf and sheep

I never tried to actually solve the wolf and sheep puzzle before. So I paused right after the rules were explained. My solution differed from the one presented, but I don’t believe it violates the rules. (… Did I? …)

(my solution)
wwss xx xxxx -- two wolves, two sheep on first bank
1
wsxx ws xxxx -- move one wolf and one sheep to the second bank,
wsxx sx wxxx -- then send one sheep back
2
wxxx ss wxxx -- move those two sheep over to the second bank,
wxxx wx ssxx -- then send the wolf back
3
xxxx ww ssxx -- move the remaining wolves to the second bank,
xxxx xx ssww -- to join with the sheep.

(their solution)
wwss xx xxxx -- two wolves, two sheep on first bank
1
ssxx ww xxxx -- move both wolves to the second bank
ssxx wx wxxx -- then send one wolf back
2
wxxx ss wxxx -- move both sheep to the second bank
wxxx wx ssxx -- then send the earlier wolf back
3
xxxx ww ssxx -- move both wolves to the second bank
xxxx xx ssww -- to join with the sheep.

(Tangential digression: Incidentally, I get the feeling Discord automatically treated that as Lua script…)


Well, now that this post is thoroughly scattered – did anybody notice what I (vaguely) did there? – maybe now would be a good time to move on.


But first, let’s do some more notes.

Three gold bars

So, the gold does exist, maybe? It’s always possible this is forged; not like anybody there is into appraisals. This seems like it doesn’t really matter.

About the Chapel

  • “The Sealed Chapel”
  • Kinzo strictly ordered Rosa, and presumably his other children, never to enter the Chapel
  • Gohda states he is not aware of Kinzo having ever gone to the chapel
  • Servants were ordered to give it a major cleaning several times a year
  • According to Nanjo, Kinzo supposedly stated “Someday, perhaps I too will be able to receive a blessing there. But unless a miracle occurs, that day will never come.”
  • “<This door is…opened…only at…probability of>??” :: English: even harder than the kanjis
    • George: “…Umm, I think it went ‘m’, ‘b’, ‘t’, ‘q’, so, …umm, umm…how many did that mean, I think…umm…hmmm…”
      ` “…Anyway, this is incredible. Adding up all the fingers on both hands doesn’t even get you close. It really would be impossible unless a miracle occurred.”
    • Nanjo : “…Certainly. It’s quite reminiscent of the old Kinzo-san, who loved using gambling as a metaphor whenever he got the chance.”

I’d love to know what that English inscription read, and what those letters (variables? Is this a formula?) represent or are a part of. Sure, we can just gloss over the details and have another side mystery… Why not, right? (W-we do find out, right?)

Subsequent twilights: Servant’s room; Natsuhi’s room

Nanjo and Kumasawa getrekt become victims for the next twilights in the servant’s room. Not much else to describe here; maybe just “there was a magical perspective for what had happened.”

Here’s a listing of the red-truths:

RED: (What about the ‘servant room keys’?) Those are “kept in the key box in the center of the servant room.” There are several servant room keys, but "all of those are inside the key box."
RED: "Entry and exit are impossible except for the single door and the single window. And those were both locked. The door and the window do not permit any kind of entry or exit when they are locked."
RED: "It is impossible to unlock the door without a servant room key or the master key."
RED: "No one exists in this room except your group. ‘Your group’ refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon."
RED: "Therefore, both in the case involving Jessica’s room and the one involving this servant room, no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding."
RED: "No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key. Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside."
RED: “You are incompetent.” (kek.)

NITPICKING:

  • “It is impossible to unlock the door without a key to the servant room or the master key.” But what about the window? So far no red truth specifically states that the window cannot be unlocked from outside in general, just that it can’t be locked from outside.
  • No one exists in this room except your group.” Technically, Beatrice just stated she doesn’t exist since in the meta, they were in the room. Though, since that statement started with “Technically” it can automatically be ignored in its entirety. That said, this statement is basically useless, unless I’m overlooking something practically and reasonably important. It only refers to the current state of the room.
  • No human exists that you were not aware of.Cue Frasier’s deduction that the culprit was a trained circus monkey.

Then we get to Natsuhi’s room. Gohda, George, and Shannon are the victims this round.

RED: “Natsuhi’s room was exactly the same, just like usual! The door and windows were locked from the inside. There were no frauds or tricks, no means of secret passage nor places in which to hide! Natsuhi’s own key was in George’s pocket, and the inside of the room was sealed off. Only the five master keys were left, and ‘Rosa’ was holding all of them! And let me say this: the parlor’s the same. The key to the parlor itself is sealed away in the servant room. So unlocking it without a master key is impossible! The definition of a closed room remains the same as always!”

NITPICKING: Time trick?


The hunters, the mothers: Rosa and Natsuhi

I’m not really trying to accuse them of anything in particular. However, the narrative has set up the case of there being one person with a gun, and in both cases both of these people stated they would become demons for their children.

So. Can we conclude that they are the “keys” in their respective episodes? That they are somehow responsible for selecting the sacrifices, possibly against their will, which someone else then executes?

I’m not sure, but the pattern has been weakly established. If something like this happens again in episode three, I don’t think I can reasonably say this is just a coincidence, but I’ll also have to look even harder to make sure there’s not some rule. (As a vague example for what I mean, consider someone who has received an organ through a transplant. There have been instances where they take on personalities “like the donor’s,” which have many explanations. One explanation could also be that there’s a physical common factor that could have caused those personalities emerge in both people. I’ll side with Occam’s razor for these sorts of things.) What I’m failing trying to say is that there could be a simpler explanation with less assumptions than the one I’m coming up with here.

Oh, as an aside, my previous idea that the gun possibly backfired in episode one doesn’t seem to hold here. It could have still been the case in episode one, but I doubt that.


Nitpicking other things

Definition for hidden doors: “A hidden door refers to an entrance or exit that cannot be recognized as such by those who don’t know of it beforehand, of course.” (Emphasis on “or” was my own. Not “entrance and exit,” but “entrance or exit.”)


Speculation

I don’t really have a cohesive theory I’m happy with for this one at the moment. Kinzo x Genji could easily be the culprits here as per my previous idea, but several things make that idea even more unlikely than before. In other words, my murderer duo shipping has (potentially) been wrecked.

Something that does keep popping up is that the witch needs everybody to submit to her. Also, maybe I’m just misinterpreting or forgetting something, but it seems that only people who submit to her can see the goat servants before she revives.


Bernkastel best girl.


Philosophy

There were a number of things I really particularly liked in this episode regarding some of the themes expressed.


I was writing this over the course of several days. That’s why everything here is so scattered. I plan on organizing this more and updating it over several more days. ^^;

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Since Aspi forced it out in the podcast anyway. The full inscription appears in a later episode; Alliance of the Golden Witch to be precise.

‘This door is opened only at a probability of a quadrillion to one. You will be blessed only at a probability of a quadrillion to one.’ This is the old fan translation though because I’m lazy.

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Just finished recording the podcast. Had some problems with scheduling, but I managed to sacrifice a few hours sleep to finally get it done last night.

Amazing podcast once again! I feel like maybe I was a little bit pushy on some points, but I’m really proud of you guys for standing up against Beatrice’s mystery. @Seraphitic da MVP.

Lots of very interesting ideas and theories were raised, some of which may prove to be very significant later on, and others which may be completely off. I’d really appreciate if you guys took a moment to share the ideas and theories that came up in the podcast here for future reference, as I’m sure we’ll be coming back to some of them in the future!

Time for some supplementary homework. I want you guys to start looking at the twilights presented here and, instead of tackling them as individual problems, start linking them together. It’s not essential that there be a single culprit for all the murders, but it’s highly unlikely that every murder was committed by someone different as well. So I want you to start beginning to connect those dots, and generate consistent theories of what might be going on behind the scenes in these gameboards. Looking at the common patterns between the gameboards is a good start to get a picture of the macro mystery of Rokkenjima, but even just connecting the dots between the individual twilights in a given gameboard is a very worthwhile activity.

Seraphitic’s ‘Kanon hired a doppelganger’ theory is a good start to this, but does such a theory explain every single murder? Are there any mysteries that can’t be explained by this framework? And on top of that, why would Kanon do what he did? What could the motive be? One must never ignore the heart of the mystery. We are reading an elaborate story, not a 100 word logic puzzle. Analysis of the whydunnit is important too!

I’m also very excited to see if people can construct alternative unifying theories of who the culprit or culprits may be, and how they dunnit. Come, let’s hear your theories!

Also, give me a couple of days to get to editing and publishing the podcast, Uni is hectic right now :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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Hooo boy was that podcast a ride. Thank you for all the people who listened in and attended. Thank so much @Aspirety for organizing, moderating and sacrificing sleep for the podcast.

Since Aspirety asked for a recap of some of the theories I thought I would try and do my best to post up the things that I remember. We didn’t really discuss alternate theories for the first night. We sort of just accepted Battler’s solution as the actual solution. I’d be interested in seeing an alternative if someone would care to share one but none was presented in the podcast.

For the second twilight the theory that Rosa was the culprit was again put up. This theory runs along the lines of “Rosa left the main party, killed Kanon and Jessica and hid Kanon’s body. She also takes Jessica’s key. She then goes and gets Shannon and Genji and brings them back to the main party. Somewhere in there she also obtains the gun. The main party goes to check on Kanon and Jessica to find Jessica dead and Kanon missing. Rosa pretends like she found Jessica’s key in the room and tries to pin the murder on Kanon. Battler shows that Kanon couldn’t have done it.” We also mentioned that Gohda or Kumasawa could have done it but that wasn’t a main theory that was discussed.

The servant’s room was probably the hardest for us. I don’t think that we came up with any really theories to explain the servant’s room adequately. I batted around the idea that ‘Rosa’ and Kanon were in on the murders together and that Kanon killed Nanjo and Kumasawa and then Rosa made it seem like the keys and letter had been in the room the whole time, much like in Jessica’s room. We also thought about the idea that, perhaps, nobody had died and that Nanjo and Kumasawa were hiding or something while everybody else acted like they were dead. There was also the fairly obvious choice that the three servants who were in the room were co-conspirators and killed Nanjo and Kumasawa. I don’t think we ever really came to any kind of solution that was particularly satisfying though.

Natsuhi’s room turned out better than expected. One of the ideas that was put forward was that the red truth that
The door and windows were locked from the inside
was misleading and that what it actually referred to was that the door and window were locked from the inside before the people inside were murdered. In which case the door was relocked from the outside but Beatrice could still technically state, in red, that the door was locked from the inside. Another theory that was put forward was that the room was truly closed and that a murder suicide had occurred. It was suggested that the murderer might be one of the two lovers who ends up killing the other and then killing themselves right afterwards. It may also (come to think of it) be both lovers who were the killers and they killed themselves in a rather Romeo and Juliet fashion, though that seems less likely to me. It doesn’t seem like George could have been involved with any murder but the first.

Since Aspirety mentioned it and because it happens towards the end of the podcast I thought I would explain my ‘Rosa’-Kanon explanation a little further. This theory rests on a few things that are a little shaky so keep that in mind. This theory basically says that the Beatrice we see in the beginning and the Rosa we see who gets the gun are one and the same person. That person is an actor who was brought to the island by Kanon for, as of right now, unexplained reasons. She arrives on the island and dazzles Maria and Rosa with a flashy magic trick, is seen by Kyrie, Genji, Kanon, and finally Shannon. The whole time she is in costume and character, both provided by Kanon so that she can play a convincing part. Kanon and her pull off the first night in the manner described by Battler, taking the envelope from Maria’s bag and then returning it after the deed is done. Then, when Rosa goes away from the party by herself, she is ambushed and either killed or held captive. The actor then assumes Rosa’s identity and Kanon and ‘Rosa’ kill Jessica. The second night then follows the ‘Rosa did it theory’. Kanon is not killed however and goes into hiding. He reappears for the servants room, kills Kumasawa and Nanjo and runs away. He returns after the servants leave and drags away the bodies. He leaves the master keys from Nanjo and Kumasawa for ‘Rosa’ to find. She fakes finding the envelope as she did finding Jessica’s key and we are baffled. Natsuhi’s room follows the same idea as the red truth cheat that I mentioned above. Basically Kanon has another key to Natsuhi’s room and commits the murder, locking the room back up. He also puts the letter in the parlor. ‘Rosa’ pretends not to know it was there. This theory rests on a few different pieces of evidence that I realize are very shaky. One is that Beatrice once calls her ‘Rosa’. Another is that Rosa seems to undergo a pretty significant personality change after leaving the parlor the first time. Another is that ‘Beatrice’s’ disappearance and Rosa leaving the main party occur at roughly the same time, or at least could be at about the same time. Kanon also seems to appear in way more murders than he should. It is also fairly suspicious how his is the only body to disappear. This whole theory could be modified to a ‘Rosa’-Rosa theory, wherein there are two Rosa’s walking around. For that matter you could probably put several people into that second slot alongside an actor that they brought along.

One finally theory worth mentioning is that we came to the conclusion that the magic that was going on in the story was probably mostly the witch’s magic explanation of how the murders where done. There may be some tricks going on in some parts but we thought that it was probably mostly an untrustworthy narrator that was to blame for all the goats and girl-stakes and such.

I hope this proved to be an ok wrap up. Please listen to the podcast though when it comes out since I’ve probably forgotten something important and certainly didn’t cover a lot of really cool stuff.

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Thanks for that!

I would really like to hear if you have any idea on what kind of motives ‘Rosa’ and Kanon could have for this murder to be completed.

For future reference I motion to refer to this culprit theory as Seraphitic’s ‘Rozatrice’ theory. Spelling Rosa with a z to emphasize she may not be the real Rosa :stuck_out_tongue:

And again, I would be overjoyed if anyone can think of an alternative culprit or culprits to explain all these murders with. I want to see two theories clash :wink:

Trying to start a war are we @Aspirety? Trying to cause some infighting? Are you working with the witches?

Hmmmmm, in terms of motive it might be that Kanon has really bought into that whole ‘furniture’ deal. He wants to stop being furniture but thinks that it won’t happen until the ceremony that Kinzo keeps talking about is performed (perhaps he thinks that Kinzo would either be dead or would release him of service at that point, either way making him free). He therefore decides to speed up the process by pulling in this actor to do these murders. I feel like it’s not a great motive but Kanon is something of an enigma anyway. A theory involving him is going to be a little spotty on details I think. This may be a good reason to look for other explanations, since mine is kind of slap-dash.