Umineko Episode 2 Spoiler-Free General

[technololigy]

The problem is that she doesn’t find any sort of happiness in doing good, so she builds herself up as something to be feared.

I think this is exactly what makes Beatrice such a good villain. If she was just a heartless monster, she’d be a boring, overpowered jerk, who pulls bullshit murders out of her ass for her own amusement… but rather, there’s this faint hint of something relatable - deep down, she’s lonely, and on some level wants attention.

A thousand years old witch being lonely is… both surprising, and makes a remarkable amount of sense. And this actually makes me genuinely curious to find out more about her, and witches in general.

(It also makes it hard for me at least to dismiss her as purely not real - if she doesn’t exist, then Battler has some seriously active imagination, and should consider a career as a writer.)

[Aspirety]

Even if Battler is actively fighting to deny Beatrice’s existence on Rokkenjima, I do still believe there is value to be found in analysing this narrative as a fantasy. The objective here is to turn the chessboard around, so trying to see things from Beatrice’s perspective can lead to valuable insight you won’t get by simply ignoring her.

The fantasy lore is also very deep, so it’s fun to think about~

[Aspirety]

Come on guys, where are you? It’s only a few more days left for the podcast, we need some more discussion happening!

I’d like to hear some of your theories based on this Episode. You can attempt to solve the murder mysteries if you wish, or try your hand at some more general stuff.

[soggysadboi]

I’m a bit late, since I finished this episode a few days ago, but I figured I should finally just post my thoughts here, but, sadly, I’m not good enough with theories to form one.

Before I say anything else, I have to say, I was not expecting Beatrice to show herself like that. That immediately threw me for a loop.

First up, I want to talk about the Red Truth, and those sort of third person analyzations of the mysteries at hand. The entire idea of the Red Truth is something I’ve found really, really interesting. Seeing Battler trying to escape a sort of logic maze every time Beatrice says something in red really added to how much I enjoyed Episode 2. The whole idea of a step back from the story to analyze the locked room is interesting enough, but the Red Truth is likely the most interesting thing I’ve seen in the mystery genre. (Not that I have much experience with the mystery genre, but you get the idea )

Now, onto the relationships between George, Shannon, Kanon, and Jessica. Episode 2, quite early on shows how Beatrice supposedly fits into these relationships, and the idea that building them up, only to tear them down again is something she finds “entertaining”. I wanted to say I had no idea any sort of romance or talk of love was going to be a theme in Umineko. We saw a glimpse of it in Episode 1, but I expected that to be about the limits of it. Although, I’m actually quite glad I was wrong on that, as I feel like the beginning of Episode 2 really gave these characters some depth. Especially Kanon and Shannon. Shannon, who’s experiencing love, sees the dull, grey sea as blue. Kanon, however, sees it as grey, and nothing but grey. But he was curious as to how Shannon could possibly see blue in that dull sea. That sort of idea worked out really well in summing the two up, I think.

Speaking of the “furniture”, I had figured from the first episode that Kanon and Shanon were special in some way, and went beyond simple servants, but I had no idea they were that special. This applies to Genji as well. Originaly, when they started calling themselves furniture, I didn’t think much of it. The word “furniture” was thrown around a lot in this episode. My mind has a billion questions about Episode 2, but the one at the forefront is: Just what the hell does “furniture” really mean? It was referenced that they were “made” or “crafted” by Kinzo. What the hell?! I thought you were human, Shannon! And now there’s shields and giant arm blades? AND EVEN WEAPONIZED DEMON GOATS, TOO?

It’s pretty easy to tell my jaw was on the floor with a gigantic question mark over my head for a lot of that. In a good way, that is.

Moving on, I need to talk about Rosa. Rosa had a large part in Episode 2, which was something I was a bit surprised to see. In Episode 1, she hardly had a presence at all outside of her interactions with Maria. Seeing her put into a role at the forefront, like Natsuhi in Episode 1, started giving me the idea that there is no such thing as an insignificant character in Umineko. Whether or not this proves to be true has yet to be seen, but I definitely believe that will be the case later on.

(Skipping over a lot here, sorry about that, couldn’t really get my thoughts together) The Tea Parties this episode were definitely more interesting than in Episode 1, in my eyes. The Tea Party, delving into Rosa’s relationship with her siblings, and just how cruel Beatrice can be. Rosa’s memories of her siblings stuck an odd chord with me, and I almost felt as if it was sort of demonstrating one of the major flaws with humans. If we are in a position of power, or are put down to seem lesser than those with power, we will try to put down the next person lower than us. If there’s no one lower than you, you’re put into a very tough position, and this is where Rosa found herself when she was born into the Ushiromiya family.

The Ura Tea Party felt as if it was a base for answers to questions that have yet to arrive, or the beginning to questions I already have. The sort of rivalry between Berkastel and Lamdadelta seems to be over, what I’d assume, are the events of Higurashi in some way. In any case, it’s quite obvious that Bernkastel has some sort of relation to Rika.

Now, I had a lot more I wanted to say, but I think I’d better stop before this post becomes any more of a mess.

(Side note: The scene with Maria and Rosa, with Worldend_dominator playing was definitely the most intense scene so far, at least to me. Absolutely brilliant.)

[Aspirety]

Hmm? It seems to me that you’ve already given up on thinking. That’s a shame, you’re practically handing Beatrice a free victory. Though, I can’t say you’re much better than Battler in that regard.

Maybe one of your fellow forumers can help you out? This Episode provides more than enough tools to help you fight back against the witch, if you can recognise them.

@NotKyon @Yerian @Seraphitic @cjlim2007 , the front lines are calling for you! Please don’t bore me, the clock has almost struck midnight, and doors to the golden land will soon be opened. Let’s give the witch the fight she deserves, shall we?

[chronotrig]

Rosa’s memories of her siblings stuck an odd chord with me, and I almost felt as if it was sort of demonstrating one of the major flaws with humans. If we are in a position of power, or are put down to seem lesser than those with power, we will try to put down the next person lower than us. If there’s no one lower than you, you’re put into a very tough position, and this is where Rosa found herself when she was born into the Ushiromiya family.

It’s things like this that sometimes help the most when trying to understand Umineko. Umi has so much misdirection going on that it can be hard to grasp the broad points the author’s trying to make, but Ryuukishi definitely has some strongly held views that affect the story. They might not be immediately useful for finding all the secrets, but they’re absolutely essential later on.

That Tea Party is probably under-appreciated, given how disturbing it is and how it has no immediate revelations.

[Seraphitic]

@Aspirety , I answer your summons. Let us see what we have today…

Holy… I just… What even…

Ok let me just say, this episode was amazing. I can’t even begin to describe what I felt during some of the scenes. The music was even better in this episode, perfectly timed and made the atmosphere just that much more… everything. The characters got a ton of new development that other people have pointed out above. Rosa especially. I love the history that you get to see at work in these characters. They have reasons for how they are and why they do what they do. It’s fantastic.

Now, on to the main event, solving the mysteries. I have to admit, this is probably not going to be pretty. I don’t know the answers to most things and there are some inconsistent things that I’m pretty sure most people with half a brain can see. But that’s what this is about. Theorizing and going back and forth until we hammer out some kind of solution.

Let’s start with the second twilight since that’s how I started in the previous episode. We are told a lot of things in red about this twilight. We know for a fact that

1. The only keys that open the door are the 5 master keys and Jessica’s own room key
2. Only the doors and windows may be used for entering and exiting, no secret passages or hiding spots exist
3. There were only the people we know about in the room, i.e. nobody was hiding in the room.
4. The window was locked from the inside
5. Kanon was killed in this room
   6)The keys have to be used
   There are some other things that we can infer perhaps but I feel like this is a good summary of what we know about the room. Let us do a quick revision of the scene and state some things we can put together. Everybody (sans the bodies from the first twilight, Kinzo, and Beatrice) goes into Jessica’s room which is opened by Gohda. They see a large pool of blood. Rosa has them check the room and then she tells them all to shut up while she checks the room. She finds Jessica’s key and then gets pissy at the servants and Kanon who is missing. The master key that Kanon should have had is found in Jessica’s pocket. Kanon is eliminated as a suspect and they all leave the room.

Ok so what can we tell from this? First thing, going out the window seems like it wouldn’t work. It was locked from the inside which doesn’t really inspire my confidence in the culprit going out that way. This means they must have exited through the door since they couldn’t have gone out any other way and they DID have to go out. Sounds ok so far. Now, the question is, who locked it and how. The door was definitely locked and only a certain number of people had keys right? Shannon and Genji were with Kinzo so they (kind of) have an alibi. Gohda was with the rest of the group but he could have killed them both before rejoining them. Kumasawa could have done something similar. It would seem like everyone else has an alibi right? Well, then there is Beatrice, right? Could she have done something? The problem with her revolves around the lock. How does she lock the door? So that’s it? Gohda or Kumasawa? Nope there is one more, Rosa. Yup Rosa could have easily done it. Here’s how: Rosa left the group to go and get Genji and Shannon. No one went with her. She goes over to the room and find Kanon standing there. She says she wants to go in and check on Jessica. Kanon lets her in. Stabby stabby and both are down. She drags Kanon’s body away for some, as of yet, unknown reason (possibly to frame HIM for the murder) and then goes back to the room. She grabs Jessica’s key and locks the door. She picks up Shannon and Genji and comes back with a smile on her face and a gun in her hand. On going back to the room she makes a big show of finding the key in the room when really it was in her hand the whole time. Proceed to convince people that Kanon is guilty and then, surprise, we see good evidence that he is not, in fact, guilty. Whoops

Now this theory neatly explains the second twilight but struggles with any of the others as we have a good eye on her for the rest of the episode. It really doesn’t seem like she could have done any of the others as Battler, George and Maria are with her pretty much always. However, it may be that she only ever intended on killing the first six and then finding a patsy to pin it on. This may explain why the killer advertised the first death, because the killer was sure they could pin the crime on someone else and then just wait it out. They did not count on the continuation of deaths. I don’t like this theory but it is important to note that, very often in mystery novels we attribute things to the killer which are not actually their doing and thereby create impossible situations for ourselves. Every character has the potential to do things by themselves and those things may be attributed to someone else wrongly. Keep things separate unless you have a good reason to link them.

So much for my theory on the second twilight. The other twilights become super hazy and I can’t figure them out. Bear in mind though that we are only told that ‘Kanon’ died in Jessica’s room. It might be that ‘Kanon’ died but only the name ‘Kanon’. It would be a very easy thing to say in red that Kanon died when all that happened was that he simply stopped being Kanon and started being… well whatever his name is (you and your secrets Ryukishi).

A few questions: What happened to the third twilight? Did we ever praise Beatrice’s noble name? I don’t remember anything like that. Did the killer forget about that? That seems unlikely. Also, where are they getting these stakes? Kinzo’s study seems like the only place in the mansion where you could find something like that, but that’s been on lock down since the beginning. We do learn that the order of the deaths does not necessarily mean that that is the order of twilights. This brings us back to a question which was asked in the first episode thread, what constitutes a twilight? Is there a single thread running through each of these twilights that can mark when a twilight has occurred? It doesn’t seem to necessarily be death. There is something else. Did smashing the mirror at the beginning actually accomplish anything? Is Maria’s rose relevant (it does happen again, remember?)? One of the things that we have to look for is recurring events. Higurashi was full of them and so will Umineko. If we can find what always happens then we can spot the anomallies so much easier.

Lets go back a bit shall we? Right at the beginning of the episode we see Beatrice tempting Shannon and Kanon with offers of love. Her expression and how she talks seem to coincide and awful lot with what the person talking with her is already thinking. Beato straight up copies Eva when she is mocking Shannon and then the next time, once Shannon is feeling better, is super nice to her. She confirms Kanon’s suspicions of her and, when Kanon tells Shannon and Shannon confronts her, she confirms them to Shannon. In other words Beatrice only ever seems to say what the other person is thinking. Does this mean that I can dismiss her as a figment of their imagination? Of course not but it is something to note. Another interesting thing that was said at the beginning of the episode. Eva says that George is the only grandson to carry Kinzo’s blood. Does this mean that Battler is not in the picture? Was he not Rudolf’s son? Was Rudolf not Kinzo’s son? What is going on there. All the other times it seems like George is called the oldest grandson to have Kinzo’s blood, but there is once when that is not the case.

In regards to all the freaking magic going on all over the place, I don’t really know what to say to that. I don’t have an answer and any kind of solution that I can think up right now would sound incredibly forced and bad. On the one hand there is drugs but somehow everyone is seeing the same thing. On the other hand there could be some kind of disease. On the other hand it could be smoke and mirrors magic tricks. I feel like a combination might be effective but it is really hard to tell. An alternate suggestion is that the whole thing is already messed up because we are dealing with unreliable narrator syndrome. We don’t know who is relaying this information about the magic seemingly going on. For all we know it could be Beato herself. Like she would tell us anything that was really useful! Having said that. I feel like there is a kernel of truth in each of those sections but that’ll take a lot more episodes to figure out.

Ok Tea Party Time. Goodness this was a crazy one. Forced cannibalism, even in purgatory is not cool Ryukishi. We do learn more about Rosa and her relationship with all her family members. Interesting to say the least. It definitely could be motivation for the first twilight if nothing else. I was more interested in the things that Maria said to her. It does seem like Rosa has some serious problems with parenting. She probably could really do with a good book. For real though I find myself oddly repulsed and compelled by Rosa. She had a hard childhood and gave Maria a hard childhood in return. Typical cycle of abuse. However, the question is, does she actually love Maria? I think the answer is yes.

The Ura Tea party is far more intriguing to me. It does seem to take place before the other tea party and involves the splitting into two teams. Bern and us against Lambda and Beato. Bern is kind enough to tell us that there was a definite weak spot in Beato’s strategy. We need to find it and exploit it. Thanks Bern, good to know. I feel like an idiot already, no need to rub it in. Honestly I’m not sure what she is referring to but I think it might have to do with the fact that the same situation keeps coming up time and again. A door is locked and the key is on the inside. It doesn’t seem like there is any way for the master key to be used and yet… there are the bodies. My guess is, if we can crack one room we’ve cracked the rest too since they all seem so similar. Again though, it is important to treat each one as it’s own thing.

I’m sure I’ll post once more before the podcast to catch things that I missed this time around. Sorry for not being active. Crazy couple of weeks. Feel free to smash my theory to bits if you like. See you Rokkenjima. As my parting gift until tomorrow, my notes: http://pastebin.com/VYffNqnZ. I hope that they are somewhat more useful to you than they have been to me so far.

[HeliosAlpha]

Eva says that George is the only grandson to carry Kinzo’s blood. Does this mean that Battler is not in the picture? All the other times it seems like George is called the oldest grandson to have Kinzo’s blood, but there is once when that is not the case.

I don’t know about all other times, but the beginning is a flashback. Until Battler returned for the family gathering, he was considered having abandoned the Ushiromiya registry.

[Aspirety]

One of the things that we have to look for is recurring events. Higurashi was full of them and so will Umineko. If we can find what always happens then we can spot the anomallies so much easier.

Good thinking, I see you’re already pursuing rules X, Y and Z~

I think the Ura Tea Party is (all of you) your best friend right now, it says pretty much all the advice I would give to people struggling with these Episodes. To summarise, a few things to take home from it…

• Beatrice may seem overwhelming, but her games have a definitive weak point. If Bern and I are thinking of the same thing, this will be highlighted next Episode, but she’s dangling all the clues necessary to solve it right in your face. Beatrice plays dirty this episode, and when you realise why, you’ll probably be annoyed. But overcoming that hurdle is essential in order to fight back against Beatrice on even footing. Episode 2 has already proven this possible.
• Beatrice doesn’t always make optimal moves, so it’s very difficult to apply chessboard thinking to her. Her motives are… complex. Lambda comments that she’s soft. When she’s just about to proceed toward checkmate, she’ll back off to give you a chance to fight back. And she’ll even torment you with gruesome scenes to reinvigorate your fighting spirit.

Episode 2 has this amazing presentation of overwhelming the reader with its intensity. But don’t let yourself get carried away by those emotions. Battler’s biggest weakness may be his emotional attachment to his family. But it’s not like you face that same weakness, right? Take a step back from the gameboard, enjoy some tea, and take time to think about the gameboard rationally. I won’t say it’s easy, but it’s probably not as hard as you’re imagining. Sometimes the answers are a lot simpler than Beatrice would lead us to believe.

[Seraphitic]

I don’t know about all other times, but the beginning is a flashback. Until Battler returned for the family gathering, he was considered having abandoned the Ushiromiya registry.

That is certainly a possibility. Eva could just be referring to the fact that George is the only grandson in the families good graces. However, from the way it is phrased it certainly seems to imply that George is the only biological grandson of Kinzo. This could just be me reading too far into it (though in a mystery novel that’s kind of what you have to do)

Going off of what @Aspirety said [quote=“Aspirety, post:29, topic:27”]
I see you’re already pursuing rules X, Y and Z~
[/quote]

I figured it would be a nice idea to try and compile a short list of things that are the same or similar between the two game boards. I’m hoping that you guys will help me out here in compiling this list since I will, almost certainly, forget many things. Also, keep in mind that this list has to be refined through perhaps a couple more game boards. Just because you see a piece move in one way in chess does not mean that there aren’t certain other ways it could move as well. With that said:

1. The shrine is destroyed
   This one is a pretty obvious one and the story goes way out of its way to tell us all about the mirror smashing incident with Shannon and Beatrice. As to the importance of that mirror smashing, I’m not too sure. It may be that Beatrice did it on a whim (not a very nice solution in my opinion). Perhaps she did it to make herself seem magical, when in fact she wasn’t. There is also the option that she did it to make Shannon think that there was a way to stop her, when in fact there was not (as we see later in Natsuhi’s room). Now, all of these are kind of based on the premise that Beatrice actually talked to Shannon and convinced her to go and smash the mirror. This may not necessarily be the case but… well we have to make sure we don’t deny things out of hand. But taking a step back, that is not really what is important or the precise connection necessarily. The connection really is that the shrine and torii are destroyed. Kumasawa also says, in both episodes, that it was destroyed by lightening (though she sort of passes it off as a joke)

2. Maria’s Rose
   Maria again finds a rose that is dying and George, again, ties a candy wrapper around it to mark it to be taken care of by Maria at a later time. Now, the change here is that Maria doesn’t go back to it again. We don’t know if the rose disappears again or not since it is not mentioned again. One possibility for how this could be important is that the rose marks a meeting spot or a drop off point for someone. It does not necessarily have to be the culprit but it is possible.

3)George’s Proposal
In both episodes George and Shannon sneak off to the gazebo in the rose garden and George awkwardly proposes to Shannon. This feels like probably one of the most significant ones in terms of establishing motive for the killer. However, if the killer is different in each episode (which Bern says might be true) then it may motivate them in different ways. For example, Jessica might be motivated by jealousy, Kanon by anger at Shannon for trying to be human, Eva by anger at George’s choice of bride etc. In any case it might be part of the motive for future events.

4)Three siblings are killed in the first twilight
Now we are getting into the actual murders which makes me nervous. I don’t like making predictions about these kind of things. However, one pattern that is most apparent to me between the two first twilights that we get to see is that both times three siblings are killed. In the first case it is Krauss, Rudolf and Rosa. In the second episode it is Krauss, Rudolf and Eva. Whether this is an actual rule will be seen in future episodes but it seems like a good place to start. It seems like one sibling is left over from the first twilight

5)Romantic couples die on the second twilight
Now you might just shrug and say, “duh” but hear me out. The epitaph only says that the ones who remain will tear apart the ‘two who are close’. By that vague wording, you could tear apart Shannon and Kanon too, since they seem to be close though with no romantic connection. However, both times it has been a romantic couple, without the epitaph saying it needs to be a romantic couple

6)The odd Ushiromiya out, with the gun
There does seem to be, both times, one of the older Ushiromiyas with a gun. Whether this is a ‘rule’ or not is certainly very questionable, however, I feel like the gun coming into play is certainly an important issue.

7)Battler survives
We aren’t surprised by this really but perhaps we should think about this. Why should Battler survive? Why does he not get killed off? Surely you could kill the Battler on the game board without killing Battler the player. Naturally we don’t expect the detective to become the victim but why not?

8)Beatrice’s letter of challenge
Both times we see Beatrice’s letter of challenge is identical. However, the first time, the challenge is read to the whole group of them at dinner. The second time, it was found on the table in the chapel. I at least assumed that the letter of challenge was given to Rosa in the garden. However, we don’t know if that is true.

So there are some things that I pulled out of the two episodes that bear a striking resemblance to each other. They may be conditions that have to be met for the game to proceed or something of that nature. They could be very important catalysts or red herrings. That’s what I’m hoping we can ferret out here.

[Aspirety]

Maria has survived both games too~
It is interesting how she seems to have this immunity from Beatrice that she brings up quite directly in this Episode. “If you’re with me you’ll be safe, Battler”

[Karifean]

That is certainly a possibility. Eva could just be referring to the fact that George is the only grandson in the families good graces. However, from the way it is phrased it certainly seems to imply that George is the only biological grandson of Kinzo. This could just be me reading too far into it (though in a mystery novel that’s kind of what you have to do)

I’m pretty sure Eva actually says George is the eldest biological grandson of Kinzo, not the only one. Which would actually imply the opposite because why would she call him the eldest if there’s no other grandson around.

[Seraphitic]

Ah. My apologies everyone. I went back to re-read the section that I was taking notes from. My notes were very vague and so I ended up with the misconception that that is what Eva had said. Sorry too @HeliosAlpha. You were right, that is what Eva says.

Maria has survived both games too~It is interesting how she seems to have this immunity from Beatrice that she brings up quite directly in this Episode. “If you’re with me you’ll be safe, Battler”

That is an interesting point also. She is the only one to survive both aside from Battler. One explanation for Maria’s assurance of survival is that she has a very trusting nature. She believes in Beatrice and thinks that they are friends. Therefore, she thinks that Beatrice would not let her die.

Speaking of letting people die, I find it weird that people keep flip-flopping on the issue of who is doing the choosing of the victims. Sometimes people make it seem like a random chance; the roulette. However, it is also said that Beatrice can choose, and that she will alter her choice and we even see her ready to make a deal. Obviously we are pushing for a human culprit and trying to work on the story from that angle. However, it is one of the weird inconsistent things that keeps coming up: do people die because of luck, or because of a choice of the witch?

[chronotrig]

That’s right, Eva does say that George is the only grandson of Kinzo. In the PS3 version of the game, they added that part saying “now that Battler has left the family register”, and the Steam re-translation includes it.

[cjlim2007]

So I finished Episode 2 last night (or maybe morning?) at 2AM and playing the end of the episode right before bed was totally a good idea. Anyways my thoughts on this episode are kinda like… well the same as episode 1 really. I can’t organize my thoughts at all. I’m still trying to figure out the main point of this game. Is it to solve the epitaph or prove that magic and witches do not exist?

Now if you ask me, “do you believe in witches?” I will say, “No fuck you.” As long as I don’t believe the game still goes. You can’t expect me to give up after just two games. I’m not incompetent like Battler.

Tl;dr this game is insane but I like it. I’ll throw in more of my thoughts later. For now, I have the Banquet of the Golden Witch to attend.

[Seraphitic]

Hmmmm. Ok I still haven’t collected all my thoughts on this Episode. Things be crazy in here and I wanted to try and at least figure something out. However, since there isn’t much coming to mind in terms of theories on who could have done it I think I’ll just start writing and see what happens.

The first thing that I notice is that Kanon sure seems to pop up a lot in a lot of these murders. He is there in Jessica’s murder, Kumasawa and Nanjo’s, George, Gohda and Shannon’s too. Add to this the fact that anybody could really have done the first twilight. Now, to be fair the scenes where Kanon shows up are generally clouded with a bunch of magic and butterflies. It may be that he is an illusion too for the third and fourth rounds of murders. However, I don’t want to overlook the fact that he certainly appears both times. The servants also certainly believe that it is Kanon for a while in the kitchen. The second twilight then starts posing problems though, if we believe that Kanon is the culprit. After all not only do we get the red truth that says that Kanon was killed in that room (which we might be able to explain as a kind of metaphor) but Battler points out that his master key is in Jessica’s pocket.

Now, there are a few things that are weird about some of these rooms. I’m planning on doing some little visual presentations and finishing those up for everyone tomorrow but I wanted to get some things out there. The first one is about the chapel. The witch speaks this red

truth about Jessica’s room

`No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key’

This is specified in the case of Jessica’s room. It is also specified in the servant’s room. However, this is not specified in the case of the chapel. This means another solution exists to the chapel. The killer got the key, unlocked the chapel, gave the key to Maria and then went on to kill the first 6. After doing that they used some unspecified trick to lock the door of the chapel. Clumsy, yeah but another interpretation. Beatrice’s refusal to repeat something in red is not necessarily confirmation that it is so.

The fourth round of deaths is possibly the most frustration, red truth-wise. The way that Beatrice expresses the truths is all wonky. All the other times the wording has been straight forward but now it is very odd indeed. She doesn’t state things very clearly. There is almost certainly something that is very suspicious about that.

Lastly, I notice that one of the red truths is trying to mislead us

‘The original key to the parlor is sealed in the servants’ room’

Ok, so the original key to the parlor is sealed in the servant’s room. So what? Earlier, Beato, you also said that there were several keys to the servant’s room. Why could the same not be true of the parlor? In fact, I would imagine that there would be more for the parlor than just about any other room in the house. It really isn’t a big deal that the ‘original key’ to the parlor is locked up. However, she then goes on to say that

‘So unlocking it without the master key is impossible!’

I’m not sure why it’s impossible but I guess she clearly says it is. I’m not sure what to make of this little problem. It definitely seems possible to me but we have her saying it definitely is impossible without the master key. Any thoughts?

[technololigy]

Random observation: every time Beatrice actually appears to multiple people, it’s in a closed space of some kind, accompanied by butterflies, and what looks like… smoke.

Now, this is probably a complete rubbish theory, but hear me out here. Let’s assume the culprit has access to some kind of gas, with some form of effect ranging from hallucinations, to slight dizziness. It doesn’t have to be particularly potent, just something that would cloud someone’s mind just enough, and it can’t have a particularly noticeable smell (eg. leaving the stove running wouldn’t do it).

By the time Beatrice actually appears, everybody is frightened. The image of the witch is strong in everybody’s minds, they’re scared and starting to doubt things. On some level, you might even say they’d want the witch to be real, because that would be less scary than not knowing.

So let’s stage a witch sighting. You’d let this gas slowly fill whatever room they’re planning for “Beatrice” to appear in, slowly enough that the people in it wouldn’t necessarily notice. Then, you waltz in, wearing a dress, laugh like a maniac and wave your hands around.

Under these conditions, what they will see is the witch appearing before them. Now, it’s very important that you’re very flashy - go full chuuni, be everything people expect the witch to be like. Keep their focus on the image of the witch, and away from any details - such as the mask you’re naturally wearing. And make sure to talk, a whole lot. Because “seeing a witch” is something that can be dismissed. But a coherent story, from multiple people, who all “saw the witch appear before them”? That’s hard to explain away. And that kind of story spreads, quickly, to people who have no way of verifying the source, but multiple eyewitness accounts.

[Seraphitic]

A decent theory. One problem might be, though, that Rosa and Maria saw the witch in the rose garden. This would literally be impossible to fill with the theoretical gas. I had an even weirder theory at some point thinking that the roses were dusted with an hallucinogen, so when everyone started smelling it the culprit would be able to pretend to be the witch. I’m not really keen on this theory but it struck me as kind of funny.

[Yerian]

My first and foremost takeaway is that I wish I would have had a couple weeks or months or so in between Ep1 and this. I thought about Ep1 really hard, and I just was not ready, in the right state-of-mind to enjoy this as much as I would have liked to. There was scene after scene after scene that I knew deep down I would have normally loved to death, but I was just not in the right place to appriciate.

Sure, the introduction of the meta elements and red truth were cool, but overall it just felt like… more of the same except this time with Rosa instead of Natsuhi. The fantasy scenes were the most interesting thing since I couldn’t fathom how they’d bounce back from being an obviously magical story after showing me that. But that also made me less interested in actually tinkering with theories. I suppose I followed Battler’s development pretty much to the letter.

^Me, to the T[quote=“Rabla, post:16, topic:27”]
Don’t deny Beatrice from BEHIND A MAGIC SHIELD, SHANNON. THAT DOESN’T HELP ANYONE. Also Kanon the sword reveal is cool as fuck but I still wish you’d lower your damn arm.
[/quote]

Same

I think this is exactly what makes Beatrice such a good villain. If she was just a heartless monster, she’d be a boring, overpowered jerk, who pulls bullshit murders out of her ass for her own amusement… but rather, there’s this faint hint of something relatable - deep down, she’s lonely, and on some level wants attention.

Perhaps my favorite favorite scene in this episode was the fight of Beatrice and her demons vs Shannon, George, and Gohda. Not only because the fantasy and chase scenes are so much fun, or because everything was described so well that I could picture it perfectly in my head, or that Shannon in serious mode is badass. But because I love the moment where Beatrice loses all control over Shannon being able to love and be loved. I can tell that this is a huuuuuuuge insight into Beatrice’s inner (past?) character.

Beatrice may seem overwhelming, but her games have a definitive weak point. If Bern and I are thinking of the same thing, this will be highlighted next Episode, but she’s dangling all the clues necessary to solve it right in your face.

The problem with that is, its almost impossible to find a weak point when you dont even know what the rules and objectives are. It doesnt matter if its possible or not if you dont know how to arrange everything.

Of course that doesnt mean I wont try though. If even Battler can come back after submitting to such an extent, then I can certainly overcome my own urges to give in.

[Seraphitic]

Of course that doesnt mean I wont try though. If even Battler can come back after submitted to such an extent, then I can certainly overcome my own urges to give in.

That’s the spirit @Yerian.

Ok so after much procrastination I’ve come up with this:

It’s super basic and doesn’t convey as much detail as I’d like it to but it should sort of serve its purpose. I didn’t make one for the parlor because I didn’t like the lack of details that we have for that room and I didn’t want to mislead with my own interpretation. I hope these help somebody.

Now I’ve had a theory bouncing around in my head for a while and I wanted to throw it out there. Could there be a collaboration going on between Genji, Gohda and Shannon? It seems like they could easily have done the first three rounds of murders. Genji then betrays the other three and kills them. Now, of course someone will ask about keys. How could Genji have done anything after giving up his master key? The answer is simple, he takes other keys when we aren’t looking. While in the servant’s room he takes a few extra keys from the box, in case he needs them. Then he can still access many door without having to worry about not having a master key. He could have just stolen a key to the servant’s room and gone back there while he was by himself to get any other keys he needs. It fits pretty well. There is, however, one puzzle that it has a very hard time explaining. How do Gohda, Shannon and George die? The doors and windows are locked from the inside and there are no hiding places in the room. How could this be done at all. I’m still working that one out. It seems impossible for anyone, not just Genji. It is possible that it is a murder-suicide but that is not clear and seems like a cheat. I’m not saying that it couldn’t happen, but I would like to look for other ways first.

That’s all I have for now. Let’s have a good podcast everyone.