Oh man, the introduction of the “catbox” idea which can basically be summed up as: “If Battler’s gamepiece didn’t see it, then it didn’t necessarily happen” is a real game changer for me. It’s probably the biggest hint Umineko ever gives it’s readers, and I’m really proud of the Podcast crew for figuring it out before they were told outright.
Aside from the Red Spam ™ at the end, this episode didn’t seem to have NEARLY as much Red as EP 2 did. On the topic of the Red Spam ™, what do you guys think of it? Any solutions? It might be an idea to gather a couple valid solutions together, just in case one gets smashed up by a later Red Truth. I have an idea higher up in the thread, but I want to see what you guys can come up with before you read that!
Also, about the catbox, this does reassess some of our knowledge of the personalities of various characters. e.g, I don’t think we’ve had any really good George X Shannon moments from Battler’s POV, just kinda cute things. Maybe their relationship hasn’t progressed as far as we’ve been led to believe? Most of Rosa’s abuse of Maria is also away from the watching eyes of Battler, so maybe it isn’t as bad as we think.
REMEMBER, all of these are just possibilities so, take them with a grain of salt, but we should seriously think it over.
Can you guys think of any character defining quirks that Battler has never been privy to? Why not post them? Maybe we can get a ball rolling here.
From your point of view I may look like a witch, but I’m barely past you guys, I’m only at Episode 4.
Take it from me: [color=red]the story is best experienced if you stop between episodes to think.[/color] Hold off on that Episode 4 button until AFTER the tea party finishes, alright?
As an Umineko veteran whose first experience with EP3 was the anime and that was one of the only ways to witness it for a while (since I despise pirating stuff but couldn’t afford the VNs), let me say that viewing things across the various mediums is an experience. With the anime, you had the perfect casting for voices (especially Sayaka Ohara as Beato, you got gud on that DEEN), but you felt a lot was left out. Then the manga came out and since the translations for EP3 took the longest (all of the question arcs and some of EP5 got translated fully before EP3 got its full translation!), it took a while to compare it (and by then there were YT playlists of EP3).
The scenes that stood out to me of course across the mediums were Rosa meeting Kuwadorian Beatrice, the coronation scene, and Beato’s change of heart until the end. The Red Text Webs scene, one of my favorites (since I’m in the fandom minority who actually likes Evatrice), was best handled in the manga in my opinion (though I’d kill for the music and voices to play as I read it), it’s beautifully done.
One thing I’ve noticed in the thread that people seem to miss is Beato during the Golden Land scene as her trick is revealed. While it could have looked better visually in the anime, it’s something that’s done right across the mediums.
But don’t fret, this game has a lot of answers in spite of it having so much fantasy layers to it, new readers! When the games were first coming out, people had a lot of time to discuss their ideas but very little guidance to go on.
And so begins the Episode 3 Tea Party. I hope y’all have a big-ass thermos of tea because this is going to be a long one.
Let’s begin with a few things that have been knocking around in my brain for a little while. I’ll try and be as organized as possible but as any of you who’ve read my posts before know, I’m very prone to rambling and not finishing a thought very well. Well, here goes nothing.
General Musings and Interpretation Methods
I’d like to begin by suggesting something that I hinted at before. That is, I’d like to suggest that the magical scenes are, at least partially, metaphorical in nature. I feel like a number of us started off with the theory that the magical scenes were actually what someone was seeing but that they were being fooled by a bunch of flashy magic tricks. In other words, we were interpreting the magical scenes through that lens. Then, when Virgilia and Battler talked about the idea that the magical scenes were like a way of explaining how something happened we all jumped on that bandwagon. In other words, our method of interpretation was no longer, ‘find out how the magic trick was done’ and became ‘ignore magical scenes since they are just the witches lies’. However, I’d like to suggest the third lens of interpretation, that the magical scenes contain subtle metaphors and that certain people, words or things are analogous to what is actually happening.
What evidence do I have for this idea? We actually had this evidence all along and just never really thought about it too hard, I think. The Seven Stakes of Purgatory have been with us for quite a while and we never really thought about them. However, they are a perfect example of the kind of thing that I am talking about. The Stakes (as characters) are metaphorical for the stakes (as objects). In fact, you could even go a little deeper (though this is probably me just getting ridiculous) and say that even the physical objects are metaphorical for people’s sins. The Siesta Sisters are similar to this. In my view I would probably interpret them as guns. After all, we get that kind of language from them all the time. There is the issue of them, in the magical scene, killing Natsuhi and Krauss by strangling them. However, you could say that instead Krauss and Natsuhi were forced out of the house at gunpoint and then killed. All of this seems, to me, to be enough evidence to at least make the theory plausible.
The question then becomes, if this is the case, what does everything else mean? And do things always mean the same thing? Do loci always mean the same thing and does Beatrice always stand for the same person. After all, we are told by Bern at the end of the first Ura Tea Party that “She does have the name Beatrice, but that does not necessarily mean that she is ‘one individual woman.’ … In other words, she’s not some human. Her existence is a personification of the rules of this world.” Now, can we trust Bernkastel? Some might argue yes, some might argue no. Personally, I’m just as happy to get information from her either way. After all, we were just fine with getting help from Virgilia earlier in episode 3. I still think that Virgilia’s help was invaluable so I’m fine with Bern’s help here. From what I can glean from Bern, Beatrice isn’t necessarily our culprit (though she might be). Bern says that ‘she’s not some human’ so she might stand for something else. What else? Love? Please stop laughing… ok… no really… I mean it guys stop laughing. It seems entirely possible that, given what Beatrice said in the second episode and what seems to be a lot of Beatrice’s motivations (emphasis on seems to be) Beatrice could stand for a motive rather than a sigular person. She might stand for a person who is motivated by that motive but I think that the unifying thing about her appearance is that she could just stand for love. Go ahead and laugh now.
Ok so there are a bunch of other things that we could sit here and try and interpret but I’m not so sure that I will be able to yet. Lets worry about those as we go on in the tea party. For future posters: if you could weigh in on the weirdness of the fact that Kanon keeps coming back when he is supposed to be dead, Ronove’s identity, Virgilia’s identity, EVA-Beatrice’s identity, any of the magical battles and so on I would love to hear it. I’d like to briefly touch on something, though. What is the Meta? I mean, we are supposing that the magical things stand for something, correct? What if the Meta stands for something? What could be more magical than the Meta? So surely, if we are going by this theory, the Meta must be full of various metaphors and analogies, right? I think that there is something about the Meta, Bern, Lambda, Beato and even possibly Battler that makes the Meta more than just a higher plane of existence. Lambda herself seems to hint that she had something to do with Beatrice gaining her powers. Could Lambda stand for something? These are questions I don’t have an answer too but I thought would be a good idea to bring up.
To sort of cap off the general musings section I figured I would take a quick look (heh, yeah right) at @Aspirety’s suggestion[quote=“Aspirety, post:29, topic:29, full:true”]
Another thing that might aid your thinking is to look at the scenes which are repeated every episode. The start of all three gameboards are very similar, but since it’s repeating, the story has a tendancy to skip over some of the less relevant aspects as we move forward to the main event. But despite this, there are some scenes which are repeated every single episode. One of them, as Seraphitic has noted, is Maria meeting Beatrice in the rose garden.
What other scenes or events are repeated each episode, and why do you think this might be the case?
[/quote]
So, there are a few things that I’m not too sure whether they occur or not. For one thing there seems to be, in episode 2, a 19th person that looks and awful lot like Beatrice. Now, interpretations vary as to whether there actually was a 19th person or not but perhaps, whatever is going on in those scenes between ‘Beatrice’ and Maria as well as ‘Beatrice’ and the servants happens each time. Previously I gave a brief list of things that I saw as repetitions. Namely: Maria’s rose, the shrine, George’s proposal, the lone Ushiromiya with a gun, and the letter of challenge.
There are a few other things that I would like to point out (some credit goes to other people for pointing them out; @pictoshark and @NotKyon, thanks). For one thing, Battler never sees Kanon’s dead body. This is a bit of an oddity as Kanon, supposedly dies in each and every one of the episodes so far. Battler never actually sees Kanon’s dead body in the first one and we all just assume that Kanon is actually dead. However, it’s unclear as to whether anyone other than Nanjo was with Kanon, even Jessica. Battler assumes that Jessica was with Kanon but that is never actually confirmed by anyone. In other words, Kanon’s dead-ness is never confirmed by Battler and always is confirmed by an outside source. @pictoshark and I put our heads together a little bit and came up with the idea that, if Kanon had some way to avoid the red, then we would never have any confirmation that he was dead. We thought that, as I suggested in episode 2, if only Kanon’s identity as ‘Kanon’ was killed then he could still be alive, though no longer as Kanon. It’s a bit of a… well to be honest a bit of a cop out. I feel like there might be a more elegant solution. For now, though, let us consider the idea that Kanon may not be as dead as we might like (possible evidence would be the magical scenes where Kanon appears with an alarming frequency). Should this be the case then we might very well ask the question of why Kanon might want to fake his death. Also, why would Nanjo want to play along? What is in it for Nanjo if he co-operates?
There’s another thing that I would like to add to my previous list of things that happen each time. I’d like to add the fact that Kinzo throws his ring out of the window. We saw it in episode one and three but not in episode 2. However, I feel like we are meant to assume this is the case in episode 2. What effect could this have. Well, if Kinzo throws it out and somebody wants it, they have to go out and get it. Therefore someone has to go out in the storm and look for the ring. So, probably our killer is out there in the rain looking around for a ring.
There are a number of minor things that might repeat but that we are never told whether or not they do. For one thing, whether or not the servant’s shifts change each time. In episode 1 we see a scene where Genji gets a call, apparently from Krauss. He tells Kanon and Shanon that there has been a change in the servant’s shift schedule. In particular he especially mentions that Shannon is to stay put (which Shannon promptly ignores). I always found this scene and its implications interesting. The fact that it is never mentioned again seems strange to me.
Another event that might be happening each time is the whole issue of the head ring. It seems to happen at least twice; once each in episodes 1 and 3. I don’t recall it happening in episode 2. This event seems to provide the reader with a possible way that someone could get the head ring and seal the envelope. However, the question of whether it is used or not is never really discussed. We aren’t really sure of whether the head ring is used or if the seal is forged. There are, undoubtedly more scenes that we are only shown once, but which occur in each episode. I’ll continue to think and update this post as other events come to mind.
The Mysteries Thus Far
So, one of the things that I thought might be useful for us in our endeavor was a nice big list of things that we need to solve. I think that we are trying to put puzzle pieces together without a clear picture of what the puzzle has to look like in the end. We should probably try and see what the mysteries are that our theories have to explain.
I’m going to try and introduce a convention (credit for this idea goes to @pictoshark who thought this would help). I will use lime to denote mysteries. It’s more just for eye-catching purposes and so that people can see at a glance what mysteries there are. However, it might be useful for us to at least keep track of things. Meh, use it or don’t use it, I’m just doing it for my own organizational purposes.
Episode 1:
Who gave Maria the umbrella and letter?: This is one that we’ll have to answer in every episode, really. I’m only going to put it here but it’s one of those repeating mysteries that @Aspirety was talking about before. This is probably one of the more important things to try and answer. Did Rosa do it? A 19th person? Is Maria making it up? There are many possible answers at this point, I think.
Who wrote the letter of challenge?: Similar to the above mystery but possibly having a different answer. It is possible that one person gave the letter to Maria, not knowing what was in the letter and so the letter itself was authored by the true mastermind (cliche enough?)
What happened on the first twilight?: In other words, the who, what, when, where, why, how of the first twilight. The first twilights always seem like the harder ones to narrow down seeing as nobody really tends to have alibis. At least in the first episode we notice that most of the people in the mansion were killed. The only ones who weren’t were Natsuhi and Kinzo (and we could debate Kinzo depending on what you think of Natsuhi saying that she saw Kinzo earlier that morning). We also assume that the people were killed in the dinning room and taken to the shed since there was a lot of what looked like blood
What happened on the second twilight?: I’ve proposed a solution on the first episode thread so take a look at that if you wish. I’m not sure if it’s right and there are other possible solutions but I’m not going to say too much about this one
What happened to Kinzo?/How did Kinzo get out of the room?: This refers to how Kinzo might have managed to get out of the study without disturbing the receipt. Quite a number of possibilities exist such as Kinzo never really being in the study, Natsuhi moved him out of the study, Kinzo hid and exited later etc. Related to this might be the question of whether or not the body found in the furnace really is Kinzo.
What happened to Kanon in the boiler room?: Was Kanon really stabbed? Did he stab himself? Did he really die from the wound? After all, it seems that we are going just off of what Nanjo told us. Nobody except him sees the body (we are meant to assume that Jessica sees him too but we are never told that; Battler just assumes it is the case)
How did the letter get onto the table?: Again, we seemingly have only a couple options. There very well could be someway to get the device onto the table from the outside but I feel like anyway that we could work out to do that would require too many machinations that we just don’t have evidence for. It seems more likely and more simple if someone just places the letter on the table. If that was the case, who would do it and why?
What happened to Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa? Also, why was Maria left alive?: Again, we have a couple of murders but this time we have a witness. She says Beatrice did it. Ok, sure Maria. Whatever you say. This bunch of murders seems particularly interesting. I definitely seems to point to the fact that somebody faked their death at some point in this game
What happened to Natsuhi and what did the children see at the end?: I gave a possible solution to Natsuhi’s ‘suicide’ earlier in this thread. There is another aspect of this mystery though, what happened to the letter that she had been supposedly reading? Who wrote that and what did they say?
Episode 2:
What happened to the shrine/What was that whole thing with the mirror?: This is the first time that we hear about anything in particular regarding that shrine that we first see is destroyed. We aren’t sure when the shrine is destroyed but we do know that it contained that mirror which we are told that Shannon destroyed. Why might this be important and is the destruction of the shrine related to the destruction of the mirror?
*What happened with the first twilight?: This one seems pretty well wrapped up but I feel like it might be dangerous to move on without a little bit of thought. There was that one scene where it shows all of the siblings (including Rosa who, in theory, shouldn’t have been there) admitting that Beatrice is a witch. We also don’t really have any idea of who did it or why? Why was “Happy Halloween Maria.” written on the door? Why were the people arranged that way? It seems like stopping our thinking on this mystery just because we know how the siblings might have been brought into the chapel is really premature.
Who or what do Rosa, Maria, Kyrie and Genji see?: Basically, who is the person who looks an awful lot like Beatrice? Is it someone dressing up as Beatrice? Is it someone that they know or someone they don’t know? Is there an actual person? This one seems to violate what we thought we knew earlier about there only being 18 people.
What happened in the servant’s room?: This was one of the mysteries that stumped us a bit in the last episode. What exactly happened here? How did the bodies get taken out? Was it Kanon in there? If not who was it? To be frank it seems like we have a lot more questions than answers on this section of the episode. I’d like to say I have an idea but I’m still pretty bad with getting this mystery a satisfying solution.
What happened in Natsuhi’s room?: I suggested two different solutions to this in the episode 2 tea party. Episode 3 brings up a third possibility. The first possibility is that the red simply means that the door was locked from the inside at some point but was not locked from the inside when the bodies were found. A second interpretation is that the person who killed the three people was among the three. In other words a murder-suicide happened. A third option brought up by the third episode is that the three might have been fatally injured but managed to escape to Natsuhi’s room and lock the door before dying. But then we must wonder why they would go to Natsuhi’s room in the first place. Was it just nearby? Were they in there prior, got attacked and managed to get the attacker out before dying?
What happened in the parlor?: This is in reference to the letter that is found in the parlor that Rosa kicks Battler out for. Did Rosa, herself place it? Did they just not notice it? Was it placed there by some other means? Actually, we should ask the bigger question, where do all these damn letters come from in the first place? Who keeps writing them? Where are they getting all these envelopes? Are they all the work of one person?
What is with that end scene?: Probably one of the harder questions, honestly. Also probably one of the ones most open for interpretation. Is it the real life or just fantasy? (No, I will not continue that joke.) I’m more interested in whether or not Genji and Kinzo truly survive to the end and if Battler actually sees Beatrice but Rosa’s scene is also pretty dang interesting.
Episode 3:
What is with Rosa’s story?: Is Rosa telling the truth in her story? Is there something she is leaving out or adding in? Did she change something? If so, what was it. Also, did Rosa tell the siblings this information in every episode or just this one? Why did Rosa wait until now to tell people about this? Why did she even say it now? How does the red truth interact with a retelling of a story? Who else works at Kuwadorian?
What happened on the first twilight?: Did the siblings conspire to do it? Did Nanjo do it? How were all the rooms closed (if they even were all closed)? What was Beatrice about to say about the accidental deaths? Did everyone die from murder? Was there a natural death (my theory)?
What’s up with the gold?: It seems like the gold exists, right? I suppose we could interpret this as a magical scene and say that it doesn’t exist but let’s go with the idea that it does indeed exist. Where did Kinzo get it? Where was it being kept? What’s the solution to the riddle? I imagine that we need a little bit of Japanese to get everything here but I think that the translators feel like they give us enough information to solve it. Possibly not but it’s hard to say for sure (at least for me.) What was the key? Was the gold ever found before and we just never knew about it?
What happened to Rosa and Maria?: This one is super short since we might already know the answer but I also wonder why the gun was not taken and why they were unstaked. Always before the second twilight victims were staked. In that case, were they the second twilight victims? Perhaps we have miscounted. After all, the second episode seems to indicate that people don’t necessarily have to be killed in the order of the twilight that appears. Natsuhi also makes some comment about Rudolf and Kyrie being very close. Could they be the second twilight victims? Something to think about anyway.
What happened with Kyrie, Rudolf, and Hideyoshi?: Basically, who killed them and why? Battler proposes Eva, but why would she kill Hideyoshi? Also, was there anything in the awesome fight scenes that gave a hint about anything? I feel like there was something pretty major that I missed but I’m not sure what yet.
What went on with George?: The scene with George is kind of bizarre. Shannon comes back to life? While this is a magical scene, why would George even go to the mansion in the first place? Was it really to see Shannon, or was there another reason? How did he die? Who killed him? Did George write the numbers on the parlor door? What do the numbers mean anyway?
The web of red truth.: … Need I say more?
Ok so that was a rough draft of the mysteries that need to be solved. Obviously, this is just a huge list of questions with very few possible answers scattered here and there. I’ll probably have to update this list at some point, but these strike me as the main mysteries. Obviously there is the mystery of what happened on the island before Beatrice died. There’s the question of who the real Beatrice was. There’s the question of what happened between Kinzo and Beatrice. I’ve tried to limit myself to, what seem to me to be, more immediate mysteries.
A Brief Inkling of a Theory
And now, time to thoroughly embarrass myself (too late). So, I’ve been mulling over the idea of Kanon somehow cheating the red and not being dead. How might one accomplish this? Well, it occurred to me that if there was someone else named Kanon who was, in fact, dead then you could circumvent the red very easily. But we don’t know of anyone else named Kanon, do we? Well true, we don’t know of anyone else named Kanon. However, there are other servants. Was there another servant who was killed? Well, we don’t know about killed but there was another servant who was, at least, injured on the job. In fact, we keep hearing about this servant. This past event keeps getting brought up. It happened before Shannon arrived and I’m not sure that we are told anymore than the fact that this servant apparently was disrespectful towards Beatrice and fell down some stairs.
Ok, speculation time. I put this idea before you: this unfortunate servant was named Kanon (a fitting name for one that repeats). He was killed on the island for some reason. He died in what is now Jessica’s room. He was acquainted with who we now call Kanon. The person we now call Kanon has gotten himself hired as a servant in order to exact revenge on the killer/s of his old friend Kanon. Confusing enough? Well possibly. However, not only does this give us a way to solve the web of red truth, it gives us a possible motive for Kanon do kill people that he might otherwise have no reason to kill (such as Nanjo or Kumasawa who would have both been around when the original Kanon was working at the Ushiromiya family). It also gives us a possible way to get through the red truth that Kanon was killed in Jessica’s room. As a bonus it also means that Kanon could actually really appear in those magical scenes because he is never really dead.
Ok, so there are obviously some tricky things about this theory. For starters, how do Eva and Hideyoshi die? Does Kanon kill them? Is there a second killer in other episodes? Who is on Kanon’s agenda of people to kill? Is he covering up the important people with less important people? Also, does Kanon write the letters? How does he put letters on tables in rooms that he isn’t in? Why would Nanjo lie for him if Kanon is Nanjo’s enemy? There are more fairly big questions but I’m thinking that I need to give it a bit more thought.
Ok, so I apologize for the delay. Schoolwork was getting out of control for a little bit and this post kept getting put off. Thanks to @Aspirety, @pictoshark, @Karifean and @NotKyon, again, for their contributions to this post. I’m really hoping that my next post isn’t this long (and I’ll bet you are too).
Not bad, not bad at all! You’ve even managed to provide evidence to support your theory. However, if I may make a bold assertion…
Only one individual in this story may use the name Kanon. That is, of course, the Kanon we all know.
Some may view this as overstepping my boundaries as an impartial host, but I need to make sure things stay interesting! Take this declaration however you like. And no, don’t expect me to respond to questioning, I will only step forward when I feel it most worthwhile.
Going back to an earlier point in your post, you make a point of looking for hints in the fight scenes. In many cases the condition of the body corresponds with how they were killed in the magical scenes. Maria with her neck bruise, Rosa impaled on the spike, Natsuhi and Krauss strangled as they were by the golden arrow. What about Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideyoshi? Is there anything we can glean from how they were killed in the fantasy scenes?
And let’s not forget about Pictoshark’s angle.
Not seeing Kanon’s corpse is a good start, but there’s surely many other things to be found if we follow this line of thinking.
Well… that is unfortunate. I kind of liked that theory. Ah well, no sense in getting attached to things. Let’s start anew. However, I would like to borrow something from my previous theory. That is, somebody (other than Beatrice from Rosa’s story) dying before the events of Rokkenjima.
A Brief Inkling of a Theory v.0.2
Thinking, again, about the red web at the end of episode 3 lets look at another possibility. Suppose that one of the characters was already dead before the events of Rokkenjima. Nowhere is it said that the 18 people we are told are on the island have to be the 18 people we think are on the island. Suppose that one of the people we think is on the island is actually not and is, in fact dead. The most likely person to not be on the island and have died is Kinzo. After all, Battler never sees him and I think that most of the scenes that he ‘appears’ in could be interpreted in a different way. If this was the case then might there be another person taking Kinzo’s place at the table, so to speak? It seems likely to me that there very well might be. This might give us an explanation as to whether or not there is a 19th person. As Battler puts it in episode 1, this person X is between the numbers. They both are and aren’t a 19th person.
Is there any evidence for this assumption? Well as I’ve mentioned before, Battler never sees Kinzo. In fact, almost no character gets to see Kinzo. Off the top of my head only some of the servants (specifically the servants who have the one-winged eagle), Nanjo (says that he plays chess with Kinzo in episode 2) and Natsuhi. There are also other people who are supposed to have heard his voice through the door. However, more often then not there is no response to people knocking on the door. Can we think of a reason why the servants might want to keep up the pretense of Kinzo being alive? Well, I can think of at least one reason: their jobs. We are told in the tips menu that the servants with the one winged crest are not trusted by Krauss and Natsuhi. However, because they are hired by Kinzo they can’t be fired. Therefore, as long as Kinzo is alive their jobs are secure. All bets are off, though, when Kinzo dies. If Kinzo died they would almost certainly want to make it seems like Kinzo had not. Another piece of evidence might be the first twilight in episode 3. The red truth certainly seems to indicate that Kanon, Shannon, Genji, Gohda, Kumasawa, and Kinzo died. It also says that nobody committed suicide. Beatrice seems to be on the verge of saying something like that nobody died by accident. I feel like there might be a little bit more to what she was going to say but we can only speculate on that. I’ve suggested before that someone might have died from natural causes such as Kinzo dying from his disease. If we go with the theory that Kinzo is already dead then this theory about the first twilight would flow pretty naturally out of it. There is another, kind of circumstantial thing that might also lend this theory some weight. Why do these events take place now? The epitaph had been up for a while before and the island had had more than 13 people on it before too. So why do all these people get murdered on the island in 1986? Before this theory all I could think of to answer this question is the arrival of Battler after his absence. However, now we can suggest that the real catalyst is the death of Kinzo prior to the events.
So, some implications and explanations are in order. First, if Kinzo is dead there are only about 4 people that necessarily know about it: Kanon, Shannon, Genji and Nanjo. One thing I might note is that all of these characters die in every episode (or at least seem to, I’ve still got my eye on you Kanon). If this is the case we might suggest that their death might be related, in some way, to Kinzo’s death and the cover-up. Now, I’ve also suggested that Kumasawa’s death is important seeing as it occurs along with Nanjo’s death twice and that it also appears to be the case that Kumasawa worked at Kuwadorian. It may be that this usurper knows quite a bit of the family history and wants Kumasawa dead for an older reason. Ok, what else? Well, as I said just a little bit ago, it seems like at least Krauss and Natsuhi don’t know since, if they did, Krauss would already be the head of the family. This would suggest that when Natsuhi ‘meets Kinzo’ in Kinzo’s office that she really does think that she is talking to Kinzo when, in fact, she is not. It even seems to hint this in the narrative since Kinzo seems to be talking in a very different manner than we would expect him to. Even Natsuhi seems to notice that he is acting very kindly, not at all like what she expected. He also seems to spend a majority of the time facing away from her. What do I suggest might be happening? Someone is pretending to be Kinzo, disguising themselves as him and fooling Natsuhi. This is all a trick to fool people about Kinzo’s time of death. However, when Eva and Natsuhi come back the person pretending to be Kinzo hid themselves. I might suggest here that they were looking for something in Kinzo’s room and that is why they did not try and leave the office for all that time. However, that is kind of a moot point at the moment.
Edit: Ok, this one I have to give credit to @pictoshark for pointing this out to me. It is possible that Krauss and Natsuhi either know or are involved in Kinzo’s death since Krauss may want to have some time to cover the paper trail that would have been left from his embezzling.
Now, inevitably someone is going to bring up the fact that Battler does see Kinzo at the end of episode 2. However, let us think about the scenario a little more carefully. I would like to propose a theory that some people might like to call a cop out. What if Battler dreamed the entire ending of episode 3? He had been drinking right before, right? Also I imagine that there is a fair amount of exhaustion with this whole event. Battler is unused to heavy drinking at his age so I feel like his passing out from alcohol and exhaustion is not out of the question. After having thought about witches and such all day I feel like a dream about all of the things that Battler sees happen would actually make a lot of sense. Does that mean he dreams the stuff with Rosa and Maria too? I’m not sure. But I would like to say, at least, that the part immediately involving Battler might have just been a dream about meeting the witch, Kinzo and Genji and having everything explained since he was so desperately looking for an answer.
So there is a little bit more of an expansion on my theory. Possibly I will work a little more on it before the tea party ends.
I have to admit, I thought the Kanon theory had a certain elegance to it, particularly when we consider that Kanon isn’t his real name – it’s his servant name, and his real name is a mystery. And with the ‘magical side’ showing that the name Beatrice can be passed on like a title … if we’re treating the magical story as metaphorical, I wonder if there’s some metaphor there. But unless there’s some way to wiggle around the bold truth, I suppose we must accept Kanon is the only Kanon.
I like the way you’re thinking now, though, @Seraphitic – and it can follow from @pictoshark’s line of thinking about what Battler can confirm of people’s characters, and what might be an elaboration. What can we confirm that way about Kinzo’s character, or Kanon’s for that matter? What can’t we?
Soon I’m going to replay chapter 3 for the tea party, I think, and keep an eye on those green questions. Watch this space.
So I was speaking with @soggysadboi and @Seraphitic earlier to help try to refresh my knowledge on Umineko episode 3. I haven’t really had a decent block of free time and focus to properly refresh my knowledge on it since I read it some number of weeks back… but thanks to these guys and the manga (which was @Aspirety’s suggestion – thanks!) I’ve managed to restore at least some of my memories.
As a result, we’ll now have this vaguely large and terribly incoherent text wall! (I’ve started writing this at 1AM, so we’ll see where this takes us.) Anyway, let’s start.
As is customary with my posts, I’ll note a “few” of the points of interest.
Definitions
These are all definitions that Beatrice gave.
Beatrice’s Closed Room Definition
Refers to a room where the inside and outside are completely separated such that it would be impossible for all types of direct or indirect intervention beyond that boundary, as well as an all-inclusive denial of the existence of hidden doors. Fishing wire, radio waves, and so on are included in this definition.
However, transmission of intent is specifically not ruled out by her definition, despite being a closed room.
Traps
Some mechanism that activates when a victim triggers it on their own, including things which activate remotely or by timer.
Red Truths
General
Rokkenjima
“Of all the doors that exist on Rokkenjima, none has a crack through which a key can slip.”
“A hidden mansion called Kuwadorian does exist in the forest of Rokkenjima.”
“There are no more than 18 humans on this Rokkenjima!” (Stated prior to any murders taking place.)
“There are no more than 18 humans on this Rokkenjima” -> this Rokenjima. Peculiar. Doesn’t that seem like a convenient way to word things? “This” implies that at least one other “Rokkenjima” exists. Perhaps it’s referring to the Rokkenjima of 1967, or perhaps it’s referring to the current state of Rokkenjima, or the state of Rokkenjima in a past gameboard… Or maybe it’s just a red herring. I’m not sure, but that’s definitely suspicious wording. (Then again, what isn’t here?)
The Beatrice of 1967 did exist as a human and had a conversation with Kinzo “like” the one Battler was shown.
Regarding Beatrice’s death in her memories “How does that look alive to you? It’s definitely dead!” (“It.”)
Refused:
Ronove was unable to answer whether Beatrice was born through something like a homunculus because it would cause a “stalemate.”
Incidents
Twilight 1
There are five master keys, one for each servant.
No doors or windows exist in those six rooms which can be locked without a key.
The six victims of this twilight, Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa, are dead.
Nobody is hiding in any of those six rooms. “Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms.”
“The six died instantly! By ‘died instantly’, I mean the targets instantly became incapable of action after being attacked. […] it was completely impossible for them to take any actions of their own will.”
The six were not killed by traps, nor did any of them commit suicide.
Refused:
The six deaths are all homicides.
Twilight 2
Rosa and Maria died (homicides), just as Nanjo diagnosed. (Rosa was stabbed in the medula oblongata with the pointed gate of the fence, and Maria was strangled with bare hands.)
Refused:
Battler makes a claim that Eva and Hideyoshi worked together to create an alibi, placing Eva as the main attacker, forcing Ronove to resign.
Twilight 4
long series of red truths regarding Kyrie and food
Refused:
Battler: “Repeat it!! ‘At that time, Ushiromiya Eva did not take a step outside her room’!!” (This wasn’t specifically refused, but Evatrice didn’t answer either.)
Twilight n
After Jessica was injured, Eva was constantly under Battler’s supervision. Battler is neither the culprit nor an accomplice.
There are no more than 18 humans on this island.
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.
The following people are dead: Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, George, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo.
The following people are alive: Battler, Eva, Jessica.
The culprit who killed Nanjo, who died was directly killed by a human standing with both feet on the ground as the two stared into each other’s faces, was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica. Committing a crime is impossible for Jessica at this point, nor was she involved, and Battler isn’t the culprit.
So at this point, if only Battler, Eva, and Jessica are alive, and the killer of Nanjo was “definitely a human,” but none of those three had done it then that only leaves dead humans and unaccounted for humans, right? Well, and correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the only humans on the island those eighteen? In that case then was the culprit a living human? There was the issue of Kanon apparently dying in episode two, but then disappearing. Is it the same sort of problem here?
Incidents
Incident 1
Beatrice resigned this one.
These are six closed rooms all tied together.
Nanjo confirmed that each of the discovered corpses were dead. (A red truth also confirmed that each of them were killed instantly.)
It’s claimed (without counter) that the culprit got into an accident and died that way.
1-1. Shannon
Beatrice’s Closed Room; “unlocked” by breaking into it.
Parlor.
One master key (on Shannon; exact location unspecified).
One Western envelope with the family crest; rather than a letter there was a key to a guest room on the second floor inside.
It’s stated, but not in red, that “apart from the five master keys, there will be only one key that can unlock certain rooms.” Note that this definition isn’t exactly the same as “for each room, there will be only one key apart from the master key that can unlock it, but nothing else.” For example, let’s say a key is able to unlock a certain combination of rooms. e.g., key 1 can unlock room A, key 2 can unlock room B, and key 3 can unlock rooms A and B. “Certain rooms” could refer to a set of rooms, hence my distinction. However I highly doubt this to be the case, and it would certainly be disappointing if so.
1-2. Kumasawa.
Beatrice’s Closed Room; unlocked with the key from 1-1.
Second floor guest room.
One master key (on Kumasawa; exact location unspecified).
One Western envelope (with the family crest?); had a key to the third floor waiting room.
1-3. Gohda.
Beatrice’s Closed Room; unlocked with the key from 1-2.
Third floor waiting room.
One master key (on Gohda; exact location unspecified).
One Western envelope (with the family crest); had a key to the second floor VIP room.
1-4. Genji.
It is not directly stated that this is a closed room.
Second floor VIP room.
One master key (location completely unspecified).
One key to the underground boiler room was discovered. (Inside an envelope, or… ?)
1-5. Kinzo.
It is not directly stated that this is a closed room.
Underground boiler room.
The key to the chapel was discovered. (Supposedly inside an envelope, along with a letter, which urged the relatives to solve the riddle of the epitaph.)
No master key discovered. (As would be expected, since Kinzo is not a servant.)
1-6. Kanon.
Chapel.
One master key (location completely unspecified).
The key to the first floor parlor was discovered. (Inside an envelope, or… ?)
Incident 2
Rose garden.
(Later, after the reconstruction in twilight 4…6.)
Virgilia: “After Rosa and Maria’s deaths, the remaining survivors rechecked all of the doors and windows in the mansion. They constructed a barricade. They re-confirmed that their defenses were solid.”
Battler: “Dad carried a portable cigarette butt holder with him. I’m finally starting to see why Kyrie-san went out of her way to put a cigarette butt in her own pocket. It was because that cigarette butt meant something. That cigarette butt was itself a message left by Kyrie-san for us…!!”
Battler: "It’s this. This cigarette butt. This was set in the ashtray of the guest room that Uncle Hideyoshi was in."
Battler: “Aunt Eva hated smoking!! There’s no way there’d be a cigarette butt there while Aunt Eva was sick and sleeping!!! However, there was a cigarette butt in the ashtray. When she saw that, Kyrie-san noticed immediately. …Uncle Hideyoshi was lying. She realized that Aunt Eva hadn’t really been sleeping, …and that she’d snuck out of the room!!”
2-1. Rosa.
Stabbed in the medulla oblongata with the pointed gate of the fence.
2-2. Maria.
Strangled.
(As an aside, Maria’s death is shown first by the predecessor Beatrice, rather than Rosa’s. That said, Rosa was first in the whole chain of events so this probably means nothing.)
Incident 4…6
Hall of the mansion.
“Three people: Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi, went to the mansion and were killed there.”
4. Rudolf.
Forehead.
5. Kyrie.
Stomach.
“The disorder of the clothing on all three suggests that they were fighting or running away. Since the three corpses were not found right next to each other, it is hypothesized that after coming into contact with the culprit, they attempted some form of resistance.”
(Later, during the reconstruction of the scene.)
Beato searched Kyrie’s corpse’s pockets, laying out whatever was inside on the floor. There were:
Handkerchief
Tissue
Key to her house
Stub of a boat ticket
Lighter
Cigarette butt
One-hundred yen coin
Kyrie doesn’t smoke, apparently.
6. Hideyoshi.
Chest.
Incident 7…8
Rose garden arbor.
Nanjo: “…St-Strangulation, I believe. …Come, take a look at this. On their necks, there are distinct markings that something thin was used to strangle them.” (Emphasis my own.)
7. Krauss.
Strangled; stake in thigh.
8. Natsuhi.
Strangled; stake in calf.
Incident 9
Parlor.
9. George.
Eva opened the door; she seemed to feel the resistance of the lock.
Digits written in red:
Dec: 07151129
Hex: 6D 1E19
Oct: 33 217 031
The leading zero indicates that this shouldn’t be treated as just a number. (And the narrative using the word “digits” rather than “number” implies this as well.)
Nanjo suggests that the number is a magic square. As a 3x3 square that’d be:
(This doesn’t look like a magic square by itself so far.)
Battler wonders if it might be a date. “It might be a coincidence, but my birthday is July 15th (0715)” (Nobody is aware of anybody whose birthday is November 29th.)
Reunited with Shannon, but dies.
I wonder if this is a Mondegreen of some sort… Another thought was that these numbers could somehow be directions. If it is a date, then maybe the 11/29 is the Kyrie’s baby was actually due, or perhaps miscarried? Maybe it’s the birthday of one of the servants or the day that “the human Beatrice died.” Either way it doesn’t necessarily need to be the case that the 07/15 intentionally matches Battler’s birthday, right?
In any case the most likely possibilities for this number relate to Kyrie being related somehow, but she should be dead at this point. Even in the case of one of my last-minute-thoughts below I’m not sure how and why she would factor in.
Maybe the number is supposed to be pronounced in two-digit chunks. e.g., “07” would be just “seven.” So it’d be 07, 15, 11, 29.
Battler: "When Dad’s group was attacked, their master key was definitely stolen.
…But the doors and windows to the guesthouse were built so that you couldn’t lock them from the outside, no matter how hard you tried.
So that master key should have had nothing to do with the guesthouse closed room…"
Cool quotes
“Watch what may be the final magic of a single butterfly who used to be called a witch…!” -Beato
“I wish I could get hired to assassinate you. All I’d have to do is relax at home for a month and the job would take care of itself.” -Ange (savage)
Things that irked me
During the game with “Evatrice” they bring up how Kyrie went to the mansion, stating in red that she couldn’t have gone there for food. It took several pages of dialogue just to reach the extremely obvious conclusion (and it’s extremely obvious without any hindsight mind you) that she went there with another goal in mind. The over-dramatization here is just terrible. When I was going through it I thought that I had missed something that made this obvious conclusion invalid, and yet it’s completely valid. I didn’t realize it was Keiichi who was playing against the witch.
That scene where Kyrie fights with the power of jealousy. Far too “chuunibyou” for me. It was neat and all, and I definitely got the vibe that I was reading something that was intended to be pretty cool, but it just killed my immersion personally. In contrast, I really liked the scene where Rudolf had that gun duel. That was clever and badass. But anyway.
Some last minute thoughts
Can we consider the possibility of a “witch” side and a “human” side? Let’s suppose you have a situation like in Maria’s puzzle book where there are n-wolves and m-sheep, but you don’t know who’s a wolf, and who’s a sheep. What then? It seems reasonable to me that something like that could be going on here. Something where we have two sides and everybody is figuring out which side they’re on. I’m not sure I’m really framing this well, but I had a very distinct realization and I’ve yet to figure out a reasonable way to express it…
Are “zombies” a thing? Let’s suppose that as a “witch” you could actually kill somebody for a short period of time, then if enough time is remaining, bring them back (either directly by manual intervention or automatically by natural occurrence). (Similarly, there’s the well-known account of Clairvius Narcisse. Not that there’s any supporting evidence for that though.) I’m sure there’s a better way to explain things than “they were dead but not really, haha,” so I’m not very fond of this particular notion…
Does Beatrice ever give a definition for “human,” or “person,” anyway? One would think that terms like those wouldn’t actually need a definition here… but considering her tendency toward tricks and mischief it seems like something that could have a “convenient meaning.” Though this is just the paranoia talking.
I’m thinking that it probably was the case that 1967’s Virgilia was Kumasawa or perhaps related to her in some way, but I’m not sure how either.
Ah that’s pretty neat. I was thinking something similar (Kyrie rather than Hideyoshi) might have been the case but dismissed it.
I’m still wondering who killed George though. Maybe Shannon “under the spell of furniture” (or something) killed him… or maybe Eva really did, or even Hideyoshi (somehow) for that matter. Alibis become a lot harder to track as the incidents increase…
That’s also something that I’ve wondered and considered. My view on this is that the challenger and primary culprit, in episode three anyway, differ.
To expand on this, I’ve taken these gameboards that we’ve been seeing as variations of the same plot that took place in episode one with different “configurations” so to speak (I feel that was established early on in episode two). In the case with this gameboard, we’re seeing the configuration/variation that resulted in the condition of “a new Beatrice being selected” and the results of that. I’m taking “Beatrice” to be more of a concept (like @Aspiretypostulated earlier), or a title of sorts, than a specific person. I see Beatrice as “what you would call a person, group, or phenomenon upon having reached some set of conditions” right now.
Oh wow, I didn’t notice that at all! Nice catch! Will definitely keep this in mind going forward into episode four.
I had a theory going that maybe Maria didn’t necessarily meet with Beatrice in the rose garden, since in episode one she never explicitly stated she had, just that Beatrice lent her the umbrella and letter. In episode two, the 19th person that we see could be explained (rather poorly) as either being a concept or as an example of “this is how I would have done it if a 19th person were there” (or more vaguely as “a special case of how episode two’s gameboard was configured”). However, if Maria did actually meet with Beatrice in the rose garden each time, around the time when everybody supposedly had an alibi, then… well, I guess this idea doesn’t really work after all.
It’s pretty excellent! I may or may not feel slightly betrayed by Beatrice’s shift from “nice kid that’s still learning and experiencing things that we take as givens” to “lol nope it was all an act, getrekt m8.” I do feel that there were real traces of some of her core personality in her act, but I’m not really sure what to make of it.
Overall this episode has definitely been my favorite so far, even with the few gripes I did have with it.
Ah that’s a good point, I hadn’t thought about it from the perspective of “innocent things” specifically. Maybe I had managed to accidentally touch on that with some loose thoughts on Rosa seeing “Beatrice” in the rose garden along with Maria in episode two… (I s’pose that’s one specific instance.)
One of the other defining scenes would be anything taking place in the study, since Battler is almost never there. More specifically, Kinzo is suspect. As @Seraphiticmentioned, we almost never see him from Battler’s perspective.
Regarding the events in Purgatorio / The Metarix or the tea parties, there are some really interesting developments that have taken place. So apparently Lambdadelta is some sort of mastermind(?) and controls Beatrice. I think I remember seeing Beatrice mentioning how she’s “stuck in a cage,” so that would make sense.
Beatrice also tears down Evatrice with red truths. That’s neat. I get the feeling that this will somehow be relevant later on, though I’ve not the slightest idea how.
There are a few things I’ve left out of this post simply because it’s taken too long to write. (It is now 5AM.) In particular, there are many things Seraphitic has posted that I’ve wanted to comment on. (It’s mostly agreement.) I’ll have to edit this post with some responses, or reply later!
Also, there were many things which I was prepared to post until I realized they didn’t actually work, or they were just vague ideas. For example, “Maybe Maria’s dad was Genji” (no…) or “Maybe there’s another Maria posing as this Maria” (why though?). Something Aspirety mentioned before has been stuck in my head still: Ange is the only surviving family member who was supposed to attend the family conference with them. (Though I might just not be remembering that correctly, and maybe it’s not even all that relevant.)
TL;DR: After reading episode three, I have some questions and feel like I might’ve been given the tools to answer them… but am still trying to figure out why I can’t hammer these rubber bands into the slot for screws. Everything’s suspicious. There are definitely things I’ve forgotten or glossed over in this post, though I’m not sure what they are.
Some Engrish from the 2nd opening movie in the game’s files that was strangely never used in any of the Episodes.
EDIT:
I forgot that I never thought to share these here.
These are a series called Umineko Motion Graphic, a series of animations set to music depicting the events of each of Umineko’s episodes as they were released. This one is episode 3. Make sure you have annotations turned on for translations!
I forgot that I never thought to share these here.
These are a series called Umineko Motion Graphic, a series of animations set to music depicting the events of each of Umineko’s episodes as they were released. This one is episode 2. Make sure you have annotations turned on for translations!
This episode was really great. It followed the foreshadowing we got from the 2nd Ura Tea Party, as in there were several new pieces on this gameboard, all supposed to corner Battler. I actually saw that this episode followed the Northwind and Sun approach somewhere in the middle and you can check that with my notes that’ll be at the end of this post as per usual. What I didn’t see was that this approach was done wittingly.
Sadly, I didn’t have many ideas for resolving things on my own this time, so I won’t really bring any new theories to the table. The only thing I have to offer is a possible beginning move to get out of the red web of truth, which admittedly was sparked by your theories regarding it. Of course, there’s @Seraphitic’s approach of saying one of the 18 was long dead and not even on the island. However, I looked again at the part that says who’s dead and who’s alive. Let’s put that here:
"Kinzo is dead.
Krauss is dead.
Natsuhi is dead.
Hideyoshi is dead.
George is dead.
Rudolf is dead.
Kyrie is dead.
Rosa is dead.
Maria is dead.
Genji is dead.
Kanon is dead.
Shannon is dead.
Gohda is dead.
Kumasawa is dead.
Nanjo is dead.
Those 15 are all dead.
Battler is alive.
Eva is alive.
Jessica is alive."
It is later confirmed that the three alive haven’t done it and that Nanjo didn’t kill himself either. This looks like a deadend, I’m not telling anything new here. However, one line here is weird and hints at this being a trick to mislead us. I’ll write that line again: Nanjo is dead.
You’re probably wondering how this is weird. Well, this clues us in that all these lines only tell us the state of each person after Nanjo has died. We automatically assume that before Nanjo dies the other 14 that are confirmed dead after Nanjo’s death are dead as well. However, this is not necessarily the case. Therefore, we can put theories out for each person that wasn’t confirmed dead at an earlier point. I think someone among you did so for George, and the same really could be done for Natsuhi and Krauss (would need a misdiagnosis by Nanjo), and Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideyoshi (were never inspected by Nanjo), although those five would need the extra work of finding a motive. So my move as Battler would be “Repeat it! Neither Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Krauss, Natsuhi nor George have killed Nanjo!” I’m not asking about the other eight because those were confirmed dead at an earlier point in red. Of course, whoever of those six did it, he or she would have to kill themselves afterwards for the red web of truth to be valid at the point it’s used.
Now that that’s over with, I want to take a step back and look at a few things that I usually talk about when looking at fictional works, but haven’t yet done here since I was preoccupied with all the mysteries. First off, there’s something I noticed about the music. And that is that the soundtrack uses certain instruments to represent different factions or themes in the plot. For one, we have the organ, which is used whenever something magical happens, and the type of organ even represents the strength of that magic. I’m not sure if the Cembalo is part of that group, it might be. Then there’s string instruments which come up during most scenes in the mansion, representing that western flair, which is a fitting choice, as string quartetts are one of the common ensembles used in chamber music back in the days.
Second: The inspiration for the seven sisters of purgatory is pretty obvious, and Ronove’s “real life background” is even stated (he is indeed the 27th demon categorized in the Lesser Key of Solomon), so I was wondering: what’s the background or inspiration for the chiester sisters? And honestly, I don’t really have a clue. They wear the flag of Iceland on their arms, but they mention “Pendragon-sama” which could refer to Uther Pendragon of the Arthur myth, but could also just refer to the name meaning, literally “Head-dragon”, so I really have no idea.
Hmm, how to end this post…
Ah, I know! Let’s put out a crazy theory! One which is almost certainly going to be crushed by the next episode! What if the meta is actually a depiction of Ange trying to figure out what happened? And I mean each time, I view each gameboard as being a parallel universe to be honest, which would mean that each version could have a different culprit. We saw this episode that Ange does have Battler’s catchphrase of “It’s useless!”, so it wouldn’t be that unreasonable to view Battler as her avatar in researching the events of 1986 in the year 1998. This would work with the approach of magic being a representation of the unknown. However, it’s most likely going to be crushed next episode, because I expect both Battler and Ange appearing in the meta, and then this theory would have to explain a whole lot more and would get pretty ugly. Still, I’ll keep it in the back of my mind.
Hello @VyseGolbez. Glad to see you keeping on with the Umineko reading. Sorry I haven’t posted anything to you before now. I didn’t want to get in the way of your theorizing since I want you to have as unbiased an opinion as possible. However, I wanted to ask you something, who do you think killed the people this time around? I’m genuinely curious because I still haven’t been able to fully make up my mind about what has gone on. On the one hand Eva definitely could have done the murders until Nanjo. However, did she actually? It seems like it might be possible for someone else to have committed at least some of them. What do you think? Also, I love all your other posts. Keep it up. At this rate I’ll see you in the episode 4 thread soon.
I find Eva to be unlikely for the first six murders, simply because I can’t think of a motive. For now my pick for those falls to Nanjo. While I can’t think of a motive either, he’s still unknown enough that this motive is as of yet to be revealed. I really only pick him here to have a motive for Nanjo’s eventual death. But let’s proceed in order. So second twilight: Rosa and Maria. This one is the easiest to attribute to Eva. We have possibility and motive for this one. Rosa found the gold as well and therefore was a threat to Eva. Maria was an unfortunate witness.Now it gets interesting. Fourth through sixth twilight: I am again suspecting Eva here. I think that Eva realized shortly after that her husband was leaving with Rudolf and Kyrie. Honestly, with Eva as one of the culprits, I assume that her illness was faked so that no one suspects her. So Eva followed the three, planning to kill only Kyrie and Rudolf. However, when she did, Hideyoshi confronted her why she had to kill those two as well. It is imaginable that he was willing to cover for Rosa’s death since she knew of the gold as well, but he didn’t understand why she had to kill two more people. So the two argued and Eva accidentally killed Hideyoshi. This might have been the point where she snapped a bit, and started to believe that she is indeed a witch and has to follow that epitaph. Here I would be guessing that she got the stakes from Kinzo’s study. It’s never really stated who of the adults had which keys afterwards, so it’s reasonable to assume that she had access to the key of the study. So now she was maybe thinking, 'I’m already killing so many people, might as well get revenge on Krauss and Natsuhi." So she killed those two next, and following procedure, used the stakes afterwards. Around here we have the second interesting point: George’s dissappearance, and eventually Nanjo’s death. My line of thinking here is that George might actually suspected his mother for the killings for one reason or another, but wanted to judge her actions through a ruse. Maybe he wanted to know if she’s still capable of loving him, whatever the reason, he decided to get Nanjo help him escape the guesthouse without anyone noticing (i.e. Nanjo closed the window again after George jumped out of it) and furthermore declare him dead as soon as they find him. What he didn’t expect was that accident regarding Jessica’s eyes. What he also didn’t expect was that he found some evidence X that allowed him to conclude that Nanjo killed the first six. The rest basically then plays out like the George theory mentioned before. George pretends to be Kanon for Jessica’s sake, kills Nanjo in revenge, and kills himself to be reunited with his love.
So yeah, that would be my theory on what happened in this game board.
For another thing that I realized is the same, or rather different, across these three game boards: Each game board, there is a new portrait of a Beatrice. We had the original in the first, the blonder Beatrice in the second, and now EVAtrice in the third. I wonder if this trend is going to continue.
edit: One thing I briefly (heh, as if) wanted to look at was the introduction of Hempel’s Raven and the concept of using the contrapositive. Because what annoyed me was Beatrice’s claim that she could prove that “all humans except me = foolish” by proving “me = wise”. There had to be a catch somewhere, because otherwise I could do the exact same thing, and common sense tells us it’s not that easy. It took me quite a while, but I think I found the “error” Beatrice made. Because to really prove that, we must first define what “foolish” and what “wise” means. And as far as I know, foolishness and wiseness is more or less on two opposite ends of a sliding scale. And here is where I think that this claim implicitly actually means that “me = the wisest”, as otherwise a contrahent to this claim could say “Compared to a possible person X, who is wiser than you, you are foolish. Therefore, your claim ‘me = wise’ is not correct”. And since we should now see that it’s actually a superlative that’s in force here, if I wanted to prove “me = wise”, which is equivalent to “me = the wisest”, I had no way around comparing myself to the rest of humanity, as this sliding scale of foolishness and wiseness is only possible by knowing different people’s degrees of wiseness or foolishness. So while the witch’s proof seems to be simple and short at a glance, it’s still no different to the more obvious almost impossible claim “all humans except me = foolish”
I like it, very good. I have another question to follow up then is, what is going on with some of these magical scenes? You’ve come up with a good working theory about what might be going on on this gameboard. I wondered if you had any thoughts about what the magical scenes are or represent or otherwise why they exist in the first place. Bear in mind this is coming from someone that is trying to come to an answer to the same question.
Also, since this chapter gives us a little more in terms of history what did you make of that? Beatrice really did seem to exist but she died 20 years ago or so. So why is this new person calling themselves Beatrice? Did they know the real Beatrice? Is this unrelated? I’d love to hear what you think about that as well.
Hmm, it’s a mixture of “How it would look like if everything were to be explained with magic” and “a metaphorical visualisation of motives, character backgrounds and the like”. And depending on the scene, I might get more out of the first option or I might get more from the second. What I’m trying to say is I tackle each magical scene from many different perspectives to see what I can gain from it. So I don’t really have an easy answer as to what the magic scenes mean or why they’re there.[quote=“Seraphitic, post:45, topic:29”]
Beatrice
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This one is complicated. And honestly, it’s one I don’t really have an idea about. For my theory for the third game board, it’s almost more convenient to say that every murder except maybe the first twilight doesn’t have anything to do with Beatrice. Of course there’s the issue of the letters. Well, it might be possible that Eva realized she needs help solving the riddle, and saw it as a low enough risk to ask the others. As to how she got the head ring, that might have actually been luck. Eva strikes me as the type of person that is sly enough to refine or adjust plans they made before. But luck seems like a cop-out and is almost like saying “magic!”, so it might be possible that she managed to make a convincing duplicate of the head ring in the past.That the first twilight actually happened was then benefitial for her, since it meant she could write a second letter (the one that’s displayed in the tips menu) to really get her siblings into thinking about the epitaph.
But for the first and second game board, I feel there’s too few information to really go off of.
Ahaha, @Karifean is spot on here in my opinion. Episodes 1 and 2 were very interesting to me, but for the most part I just couldn’t get into them. That has all changed with Episode 3! I love what we are able to do with this story now that we all actually understand how it works in general.
I would like to say that I was expecting that ending the whole time… as soon as Virgilia said The North Wind and the Sun, I had an idea that Beatrice would try to pull something like this. But to be honest I had completely forgotten about it until Battler said something about Beatrice being a witch and they were transported to the Banquet. So I was basically fooled by her trick nonetheless.
I said something similar after reading Onikakushi, but Ive really got to hand it to Ryukushi and his ability to scare me even when Im expecting it. Like I said, at that point I knew the whole “sign the paper” thing was a ruse from the start, but that moment when Beatrice donned her signature grin which we had almost forgotten about, and especially Virgilia who we had never seen look evil before… it was still creepy as hell!
Personally, I was happy to see the old Beatrice return at the end. As I was reading, it saddened me to think that Beatrice, who’s villainy was so perfect, could possibly become an actual ally. As exciting as it was to fight EVA Beatrice, who I kinda hated, I much prefer Beatrice as an opponent than her.
What was more devastating to me was the betrayal of Virgilia. Not only had I actually thought of her as an ally, but she represented the hope that there really were good witches in this world. But all along, she had been playing us, and as I assume we may see in Episode 4, she contains the same evil as Beatrice.
On that note, I warn against putting faith Bernkastle just because she is in the same position as we the reader. She may also be trapped by Beatrice’s gameboard, but does that does not mean we should inherently trust her, and it certainly does not make her a “good” witch.
Related to, but not directly answering:
There are a few scenes that Battler does not witness, but also are not part of the gameboard, and I am wondering to what extent we can trust them. These are the opening scenes of each episode, which appear to be pure backstory. We know that these are not part of the gameboard, at least in Episode 3, because Battler does not recognize Virgilia when she appears in place of Kumasawa later. So that begs the question, what is their relevance. Are they simply there to narratively introduce elements that will pop up later in that episode? Episodes 2-3’s openings contain many appearances of witches and magic, so if we deny those then we obviously cannot take them at full face value… but can they be interpreted in meaningful ways that treat magic as the “unknown” and a metaphor? I think we can safely assume that George and Shannon’s trip, as well as Jessica and Kanon’s romantic interactions did indeed happen in the “real world”, as they are referenced again and again. But does the Episode 3 scene perhaps show us the fragment where Beatrice came from, as referenced by Lambda? Or does it show the Kuwadorian… saaaaaaaa
Side note: I don’t know if we knew this before, but Genji’s surname is Ronove!? And Ronove the demon comments that “You [Genji] are my greatest servant.” What? I thought Genji was Kinzo’s servant? Is this just a reference to how Kinzo modeled his furniture after Ronove, as is mentioned with Kanon later, or is there some deeper backstory here?
EDIT: Listening to the podcast, Im starting to wonder if, like Beatrice’s North Wind and the Sun, this whole Episode is made to trick you. It is so so easy to pin almost everything in this Episode on Eva. She disappears over and over again, has a gun, and seems perfectly capable of killing everyone. Then EVA Beatrice seems to lead us to believe that she’s the culprit, by refusing to repeat so many things in red surrounding her alibis. And of course it all ends with Eva admitting to being the culprit and killing Battler…
But doesn’t this seem too easy? We see so many things that point us to Eva, plus EVA Beatrice is the one doing the murders from the magic point of view. BUT, Battler was upstairs for the majority of the game! We cannot fully trust the majority of the scenes from this Episode. There is also a sneaky way of using the red truths that Battler does not seem to understand yet. Let me explain:
A witch can refuse to repeat something in red for any reason, and they do not have to state this reason. As such they can refuse to repeat something that is completely true in red. Beato seemingly did this early on, originally refusing to repeat that there were only 18 people on the island, only to reveal later that this was in fact true.
The question is, why would you refuse to repeat something in red? This is often essentially resigning, giving Battler a win. Ronove demonstrates a couple reasons: repeating something in red could give away valuable info, cause a stalemate, or even seal your own defeat. But there could be another reason. To trick Battler. Battler assumes that when a witch refuses to repeat something, it must not be true. But if a witch can convince Battler of one thing through this method… it could cause him to miss clues or become trapped later. This can be used as a sort of “lost the battle but won the war” situation. As EVA Beatrice pointed out, the witch side has a kinda large advantage in this game: Battler has to win every round, but the witch only has to win one. So if the witch uses an easy mystery to convince Battler of one thing, like “Eva is the killer”, then Battler (and the reader) is much more likely to stop thinking. Obviously the web of red truth has many more hang ups, but the original one that Eva did not kill Nanjo is honestly startling at first for this reason.
Clearly Eva did partake in some of the murders, or she wouldn’t have admitted it and shot Battler at the end… but my current theory is that she didn’t do all of them. Obviously not Nanjo, probably not the first twilight… possibly only Rosa and Maria.
Whew, I’m getting faster, episode 1 took me a year, episode 2 took 6 months, and now I’ve finished episode 3 in about 3 months. Before we start, a quick joke. Where does Battler from Umineko do his online clothes shopping?
explainedbyhumans!
So anyways, this episode really ramped things up to 11. It started fairly innocuously but holy cow it escalated quickly, episode 2 there was some magic and some demons and stuff but this episode dropped the pretense that it was a non-magical murder mystery entirely and went all in on it. The magic battle scene between Beatrice and predecessor Beatrice was when I knew shit was going to go down. To quote myself from when I was reading it,
"E1: a murder mystery on an island
E2: oh btw there are witches and demons
E3: now the witches use the weapons of the gods to fight each other"
which pretty succinctly summarizes my experience with the first part.
I also noted that (Higurashi spoilers regarding the differences in the meta elements between it and Umineko) I feel like this game was written with people like me, who had already played Higurashi, in mind. In Higurashi magic basically doesn’t affect the world, all the murder mysteries can be explained using logic in theory. Umineko on the other hand is completely the opposite of this. It’s making it fairly clear pretty early on that yes magic is definitely real and definitely is how all these murders are happening which I think is really interesting.
Then came the part where it seemed like Battler had Beatrice on the back foot for a bit which in light of the ending was incredibly brilliant. And then Eva showed up and that’s where things got really good. First of all, witch Eva is incredibly cute and she might be a deranged murderous witch but I love her so much, also her portrait is amazing and I want a copy to hang on my wall irl. Anyways, wow, holy shit that ending, it caught me completely off guard how they were all working together to get Battler but it totally makes sense in hindsight which is one of my favorite storytelling things. (things that are totally obvious in hindsight but you never see coming in before.) Also I like how Kyrie mentioned that Battler has a step sister when she’s fighting the stakes and I totally made a note of it at the time it happened and felt so smart when I immediately knew who she was when she showed up at the very end.
Then the tea parties, it’s interesting how they basically switched them around this time, starting with the discussion among the witches and concluding with the more real people, it was pretty basic, I don’t have a lot to say about them except something that’s Higurashi spoilery so I’ll do that in the next paragraph.
(Higurashi spoilers regarding the similarity of a character in it with one in Umineko) So I am getting some serious Mamoru vibes from Ange, I’m really curious what part she’s going to play from here on out and it’s pretty obvious based on her interaction with Bernkastel that she’s going to be the key to winning the game against Beatrice.
So yeah, wow, I’m definitely really getting into the story now, episode 1 I was a bit iffy about but I’m completely sold now, I’m really interested what the remaining episodes will bring, I hope witch Eva appears again but idk if she will, regardless I’m excited to see how the story can continue turning everything up to 11.
The best thing is that said step sister was also mentioned by I think Battler himself way back when in the airport scene in episode 1. Glad to see you enjoying Umineko, though.
