Mm, I hear ya. But a lot of people dig that shit. It’s just a bit of flavour that you’ll either love or hate.
Let me start by saying I really enjoyed this episode even though it confused the hell out of me, and for some reason also the haziest in my memory.
Let’s start with Ange, when she speaks with Maria about her life being pitiful (when time was stopped, before Mammon told Ange to return to where Battler and Beatrice were) she has the pessimistic view point of life and magic, yet the story leads you to believe this is after her journey in the future. At the end of her journey in the future, she seems enlightened and at peace, and even forces Beatrice to continue the game. Is it possible that Ange is split into two entities (Rokkenjimma Ange & Ange in the future) when Bernkastel makes Ange a piece? With both the game on Rokkenjima and the story of adult Ange happening in parallel, and that they both become one again in order to save Battler.
When it comes to most of the magical occurrences so far we’ll see 'Golden Butterflies" Whenever we see these butterflies, the character’s are hallucinating due to some unknown drug. This drug is a gas that is inhaled. According to this logic all “Magic” during this time is some trick aided by this drug! This will also explain everyone’s statements about what appears to be magic! This theory only applies to when the butterflies appear, if there are none than I don’t know if it’s a different type of drug being used to make them hallucinate.
I do not know what exactly all these tricks are but if say the “magic blades” Shannon and Kannon have could just be normal weapons. I have no strong theories for the teleportation, but… George and Jessica do not kill each other. George is killed by some unknown method. Jessica is attacked, her attacker tells Jessica about Georges death, afterwards she gains a wound and a small bomb is placed into her head wound. Jessica knows about this, locks herself in her room, and tries warning Battler, before the bomb blows up and kills her! (As you can probably tell I’m a strong believer in the small bomb theory, I’m positive it wasn’t denied by Lambdadelta).
I don’t know whether this is valid but There are no secret passages that allow someone to leave the rooms, but it’s possible that there is a hidden panel (a hole to put your hand through) or switch that will allow you to lock the door while you are outside of the room.
Regarding the question of no one being alive on the island but someone or thing is going to kill Battler There is a wolf that is about to attack and kill Battler! If the it’s not a living thing that will kill Battler than it has to be due to lightning striking him down!
Also something I notice (not sure if I’m remembering wrong or not), but wasn’t Rosa part of the group that was in the chapel accepting Beatrice’s existence in Episode 2, yet why was she alive and out of the chapel after that scene? If I didn’t remember wrong than I proclaim that Rosa is either the culprit behind the all the murders or that she is only an assistant to the real culprit!!!
I have no idea when it comes to what was happening with Kinzo, I don’t think they said in red that his name couldn’t be passed on but than again I can’t remember. If his name can be inherited by the new head of the family, than I believe that he is always dead at the start of every game.
These are my thoughts and my theories on the mysteries on Rokkenjima. It was actually really fun to type this all up and share it with all of you.
I’m really looking forward to whenever the release of the answer arcs come, I can’t wait to see if my theories get demolished.
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I won’t be so arrogant as to use the red, but I’ll happily apply with some bold assertions.
An unknown drug? Pukuku, what foolish logic. Unknown drugs or difficult to understand scientific methods have no place in this mystery!
The hell is that? Small bombs?!?! What kind of a mystery uses those?
A hidden button to lock or unlock a door may as well be equivalent to a hidden passage! They have no place here.
Come on, you’re resorting to the simplest, cheapest methods. Do you really think Beatrice’s mystery is that flimsy? If you’re going to claim such methods exist, you must provide evidence from the story!
Not bad. However. [Beatrice] is there, and will kill Battler. Are you claiming that the culprit somehow has control of the lightning? Absurd. The wolf argument works better here, assuming the culprit is in fact a wolf. You could even argue that the existence of wolves was mentioned in Episode 3 so evidence was presented. However, I will assert that Battler was most certainly not killed by any wolf, seagull, or other animal or insect! To assume as much is to spit on the narrative Beatrice has spent all this time spinning. Do you really have that little faith in her?
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Oh this is really thrilling, it seems like you really want to back up the existence of magic.
Ok sorry let me revise my statement The hallucinations are caused by a drug known as a Hallucinogen!!! Though my knowledge with these is lacking that doesn’t mean that the specific drug used is unknown! If it’s a well known drug that many know about, that makes it a known drug which means it is a valid theory to exist!
This is based on a mystery that’s involving so called “witches & magic” is it so strange that there’s such a outlandish way to kill someone?[quote=“Aspirety, post:13, topic:31”]
A hidden button to lock or unlock a door may as well be equivalent to a hidden passage! They have no place here.
Come on, you’re resorting to the simplest, cheapest methods. Do you really think Beatrice’s mystery is that flimsy? If you’re going to claim such methods exist, you must provide evidence from the story!
[/quote]
Ok you got me there, I wasn’t sure if it counted or not.
** [Beatrice] exists but not as a witch
How’s this revised theory of mine, are these decent revisions
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Hi all! New to this forum. FYI, I’ve finished the entire series but this post contains no spoiler past episode 4.
There were some mentions about pacing in this episode. On my initial read-through of the series, I would have fully agreed with that. Particularly portions early on in episode 2 and all the Maria/Ange chapters really felt like a chore to get through.
Something I know now and didn’t know then is that every scene is important. Always keep thinking and try to surmise what Ryukishi07 is trying to convey. Not to get into specifics, but what I thought was filler ended up being very key to understanding the secrets of Umineko.
Some of the parts I considered the most boring became some of my favorites after finishing the entire series.
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Before I reread Episode 1, I’d like to try to tackle some of its mysteries using the revelations from this Episode and my crappy memory. Alright let’s go. My notes basically just consist of these images and my legendarily bad memory.
Alright the mysteries in this episode will hereafter be referred to as “!garage!”, “!chain!”, “!kanon!”, “!parlor!” and “!natsuhi”.
As said by Battler on the topic of !garage There’s nothing strange about the murder of the six relatives that were found in the gardening shed at the start! key suspects are obviously anyone who survived til the end if we assume one culprit or a group of culprits co-operating. it is possible for others to be the killers but I’ll get onto that later.
Initally one would assume George to be above suspicion for this crime, as his lover was brutally murdered. However, it is established by Virgillia in the third game that scenes not narrated by Battler have the potential to be unreliable. In addition I believe no-one spoke of seeing Shannon after George’s proposal under the arbor. At the very least this did not happen while Battler was watching. Therefore, it is possible that George had an abusive or manipulative relationship with Shannon that the reader was not shown. He may have mudered her in a fit of anger after she rejected his proposal in the arbor, or perhaps because her acceptance wasn’t passionate enough by his standards. He may have simply moved the ring after the murder in order to maintain the facade.
Then in a moment of clarity he remembered the witch’s epitaph, and then killed the group in the dining hall to set up an atmosphere that would reduce people’s ability to think rationally, reducing the chances of him being discovered.
This theory is backed up by how Eva and Hideyoshi were not murdered, it is possible that by some method George knew that they would leave and then attacked after they did. His reasons for this could be due to either A, not wanting to kill his parents, B, wanting to wait till the number in the dining hall matched the number he needed to kill to match Line 1 of the epitaph, or C, he knew he would find it difficult to overpower his Mother due to her knowledge of Martial arts, and that having her and Hideyoshi leave the room would give him the easiest time in killing the group in the dining room.
Unfortunately, I do not currently have enough information regarding !chain, so I’ll need to wait till after I reread Ep 1 before I can tackle it.
However I think I may have an answer for !natsuhi. But first we’ll need to some supplementary reading
If the suicidal person is not acting out of his own free will, then assistance is punishable by any of a number of homicide offences that the criminal code provides for, as having “acted through another person” (§25, section 1 of the German criminal code,[55] usually called “mittelbare Täterschaft”). Action out of free will is not ruled out by the decision to end one’s life in itself; it can be assumed as long as a suicidal person “decides on his own fate up to the end […] and is in control of the situation.”[54]
Free will cannot be assumed, however, if someone is manipulated or deceived. A classic textbook example for this, in German law, is the so-called Sirius case on which the Federal Court of Justice ruled in 1983: The accused had convinced an acquaintance that she would be re-incarnated into a better life if she killed herself. She unsuccessfully attempted suicide, leading the accused to be charged with, and eventually convicted of attempted murder.[56] (The accused had also convinced the acquaintance that he hailed from the star Sirius, hence the name of the case).
Apart from manipulation, the criminal code states three conditions under which a person is not acting under his own free will:
- if the person is under 14
- if the person has “one of the mental diseases listed in §20 of the German Criminal Code”[57]
- a person that is acting under a state of emergency.
Under these circumstances, even if colloquially speaking one might say a person is acting of his own free will, a conviction of murder is possible.
German law puts certain people in the position of a warrantor (Garantenstellung) for the well-being of another, e.g. parents, spouses, doctors and police officers. Such people might find themselves legally bound to do what they can to prevent a suicide; if they do not, they are guilty of homicide by omission.
Therefore, provocation to commit suicide could be considered homicide in certain parts of the world.
Even though Beatrice said: “Natsuhi’s death was a homicide!” it is still possible for it to be a provoked suicide.
The contents of the letter Natsuhi read prompted her to commit suicide. She did so using a second gun she was holding onto, not “her gun” that we repeatedly see throughout the story. This second gun could have been identical in appearance to “her gun” and she could have hid “her gun” elsewhere before killing herself.
The only person who could have written a note that could encourage Natsuhi to kill herself who did not die very early on is her daughter Jessica Uroshimiya. Therefore, I suggest that the letter was written by Jessica Uroshimya, not the Golden Witch Beatrice. As the letter is not seen by Battler its contents could be anything, the handwriting and paper type could even be completely different to the other letters, this theory does not suggest Jessica wrote any of the other letters, just the one Natsuhi read.
The letter might not have even been intended to prompt suicide, it could have just been a private final confession from Jessica to Natsuhi, as Jessica felt she or her mother would die soon and wanted to give her a private message before she died. This explains why the letter was placed in one of Beatrice’s envelopes, Jessica re-used a previous envelope to guarantee her mother would place reading it at the top of her priority list, without having to present it to her Mother herself as that would make her have to withstand her Mother’s reaction to the news.
Now that he have established the possibility of Natsuhi committing suicide, it’s time for the final blow.
The perpetrator in the killings is Natsuhi, after losing the emotional crutch she had in her husband. Her plan was to pin the killings on Kinzo, as although she surely knew that Kinzo was dead, she claimed to have met him in his study. This explains the slight tactical error of everyone finding Kinzo’s body. She then placed the envelope in the study herself or though the use of Genji or Nanjo as an accomplice and killed them by some method. It is possible that Genji/Nanjo knew that they would die, but it is also possible that they were merely used. While the red denies the possibility of trap X for a number of the killings across the games, that guarantee is never made for Kanon’s death.
While my motive may not be particuarly substantial, I think the rest kind of works out. I’ll iron out this theories once I reread Ep 1. Does anyone want to respond?
PS: Also, for the “I will now…kill you” thing.
Beatrice is the concept of the Rokkenjima Killings. Therefore, if Battler kills himself from stress amassed from the killings, then it could be said that “Beatrice killed him”.
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I never would have thought of that, this is a very interesting theory. Also going by this theory.
Do you think it’s possible that the cousins are part of a conspiracy to get all the inheritance for themselves. If I recall correctly, only the cousins were alive at the end of the first episode. I don’t know if they would tell Battler if this is the case but if they did it’s possible that he rebelled and they killed him or he shot himself just like in your theory.
This directly clashes with my theory that [Beatrice] is another personality of someone, but I really like your theory of [Beatrice] just being a concept that pushes Battler into killing himself. Your theory has given me another angle to look at things for when I might reread the question arcs.
The Battler Killing itself thing was about the “I will kill you” riddle at the end of Ep 4. It had nothing to do with Ep 1.
I hate to do this to you man, but your theory makes no sense.
In Ep 4 at the very end of the debate between Battler and Beatrice, Beatrice issues her final riddle. At this moment on the game board Battler is alone on the island, having confirmed everyone’s deaths. Do you see why your “theory that [Beatrice] is another personality of someone” doesn’t fit?
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I know my theory is rather out there but in it I believe that [Beatrice] killed the main personality (which counted towards “everyone else on the island being dead” everyone else meant all the people that he knew about.) and that [Beatrice] had prepared a fake corpse or had taken some kind of drug to make it appears as if they were dead for a time. Remember Battler isn’t a skilled doctor so he could make some mistakes if this were the case.
After reading your theory about [Beatrice] just being the concepts of the killings, I have to admit that it makes a lot more sense and is more probable. but I can’t just completely deny my theory.
“…Ushiromiya Battler. I will now…kill you.”
“…And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.”
“…You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and am about to kill you.”
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What a packed episode. There’s so much to pick apart! ANGE Beatrice is a fascinating piece – a witch made to deny witches. You could think of her as a thought experiment – a way of interrogating the premises of an argument by bearing out their logical consequences, even ‘a thousand years in the future.’ For the sake of a thought experiment, you can entertain the existence of witches, without accepting the existence of witches. In fact, that may be the best way to deny witches. Like the game says, you have to keep two eyes open.
The original Schrodinger’s Cat Box was a thought experiment to deny many worlds, by entertaining many worlds. (That’s a horrible simplification, but bear with me.) It was meant to be a reductio ad absurdum – a cat can’t be simultaneously alive and not-alive, therefore there’s something wrong with the premise of quantum entanglement – but now many people accept this as a strange but true feature of our existence. A cat can be simultaneously alive and not-alive until you look yourself. I think new players, like me, struggle with the Meta world of Umineko in the same way, then accept it as a strange feature of the game in order to keep playing.
Hmm maybe it’s something like this. By entertaining – and ultimately respecting – a world of magic, ANGE Beatrice discovers what true magic looks like and what true magic means. She uses it to revive Sakutarou for MARIA, and this is something Beatrice cannot do. Therefore, Beatrice must not have true magic. This doesn’t mean any sort of magic exists outside the Meta world or on the game board, but exploring the consequences of ‘magic exists’ gives her the tools to deny Beatrice’s power. With a display of magic, she can force Beatrice out of the Golden Land and back into the game.
About that.
There are two questions looming large for me, from the time Beatrice abandons the game.
**Who is Ushiromiya Battler? **
What is Ushiromiya Battler’s sin?
And a subquestion –
Do we know enough at this stage of the game to theorize about either?
At first, I thought Beatrice’s attempt to disqualify Battler would be the same kind of existential trick Lambdadelta uses to make ANGE Beatrice question who she is. She is Ushiromiya Ange, but she’s the Ushiromiya Ange whose family never returned from Rokkenjima. So even if Ushiromiya Ange’s family returns from Rokkenjima, they won’t return to her, because she was never that Ange. She both is and isn’t Ushiromiya Ange. So maybe there’s some way to say the Meta Battler, the one who can view the gameboard with Beatrice, is and isn’t Ushiromiya Battler … but then what is he, exactly?
Maybe I’m getting too metaphysical here. This isn’t the first time someone’s accused him of not being the Ushiromiya Battler of six years ago. Rosa did the same thing on the gameboard at the end of episode two. It makes a certain kind of paranoid sense. So what, Battler had no interest in the Ushiromiya name for six years, doesn’t come to any of the family conferences, and the year he does is the year they’re discussing the inheritance and everything goes wrong? And that would explain why, when Beatrice questioned him on the gameboard, he didn’t know his sin from six years ago – he wasn’t there.
But we’ve been in Battler’s perspective before, and he does remember things from six years ago, just not this supposed sin. Honestly, doesn’t it sound like a lover’s spat? ‘Just tell me what I did wrong so I can apologize!’ ‘Not knowing what you did wrong is part of what you did wrong!’ Battler’s sin may not have anything to do with this.
Well, it’s worth at least examining the exact line Beatrice uses to undermine Battler’s identity. She goes after his mother Asumu. She switches weapons with him, and challenges him to use the red truth to establish that he was born from Ushiromiya Asumu. When he can’t, this produces the illusion that he isn’t Kinzo’s grandchild Ushiromiya Battler, Beatrice’s opponent. But that’s an obvious equivocation! There are multiple ways he can be Kinzo’s grandchild Battler without being Asumu’s biological son. She isn’t the one with Kinzo’s blood, anyway. Battler only really falls for this because … well, love. He loved Asumu, and believed he was her faithful son, her last living defender. For him that’s what those six years were all about. So who was he when he wasn’t an Ushiromiya, if not Asumu’s son?
But it’s a red truth that he isn’t, at least not biologically. She was a mother to him, but he wasn’t born from her. So maybe the question we should be asking isn’t just who is Battler? It’s who was Battler born from?
Is she someone we know? Was it Kyrie after all? She was pregnant at the same time, though she claimed she had a miscarriage. Or maybe he was a homunculus created by alchemy in Kinzo’s laboratory to be the perfect opponent for Beatrice … Oh no, I’m getting sucked in by magical thinking.
And that still leaves the question of what his sin was. We do get lots of red truths about it.
Ushiromiya Battler has a sin.
Because of (this) sin, people die.
(…) A great many humans on this island die.
No one escapes, all die.
The sin (…) is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
Six years ago (for Battler) no person called Beatrice existed.
… Yeah, I have no clue what it is. I suspect whatever it is, it may be the key to the entire game. It’s the first thing we have approaching a motive, right? An underlying cause for all the deaths on this island. Even if we don’t really suspect Battler is the culprit, or anything like that … he could still be the catalyst for everything that happens.
Okay, this is a great big walloftext with no conclusions. I should wrap it up. One thing I do want to note – Beatrice’s final mystery is ‘who am I?’ It’s the same question the human Beatrice asked Kinzo in Kuwadorian, in a conversation which the red truth confirms happened. Or technically, those two actually had a conversation like that in this place. A conversation where Beatrice asked an Ushiromiya who she was. In this episode, Ange and Battler are also lead to ask that question of themselves. ‘Who am I?’
I don’t know what it all means. But it’s … a thing. In a wall of text.
Congratulations for scrolling down, here are your discussion questions: Who is Ushiromiya Battler? Who is the Meta Battler, and who is the Battler of the gameboard? Are they the same, or different, and how did they become different? Who was Battler born from, if not Asumu? Does it matter? What was Battler’s sin? Why doesn’t he remember it? How did it lead to the deaths on the island? And what has Beatrice so sulky?
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Hoy! mimsy! We could start a back and forth here if you want too.
An important thing to remember is that Sins are subjective and they are defined by humans. A sin is not necessarily an evil act, it could merely be an act that another human takes issue with. Therefore, almost any act taken by a human being could be defined as a sin. Beatrice using the noun “sin” tells us nothing of the nature of what Battler did. It doesn’t even tell us if it inconvenienced anyone at the time. Just the mere fact that it caused the murders could lead to it being referred to as a sin.
All this tells us is that all of the murders have a root cause, and that root cause can be traced back to Battler. Reaching any other conclusions without additional evidence is overly hasty, and rash.
I think talking about this could actually be quite important. We know Battler’s Sin causes everyone’s deaths. In addition these deaths all occur as soon as Battler comes back into the picture after a long break. We could just chalk it up to coincidence, but it seems pretty likely that the killer specifically wants Battler dead and isn’t just killing him because he’s there.
Also part of MY wall of text up above supposed the following theory to solve the “Who am I?” ridddle.
Unfortunately @mimsy here has reminded me of a veeeeeeery unfortunate fact that completely disproves my theory.
If Kinzo has spoken to Beatrice, and the existence of their conversation has been confirmed by the red, then I can’t go around insisting Beatrice is a concept now, can I?
HOWEVER, thanks to this brief discussion about how Battler seems to be (at least part of) the root cause of everything I believe I now have a means of attack, a new theory.
Beatrice is the Beatrice who was locked up in Kuwadorin and died. She ascended to the metaworld through the same unknown means which allowed Battler to do so. She was a part of the root cause of the killings. Therefore, if Battler kills himself from stress amassed from the killings, then it could be said that “Beatrice killed him”.
And I can already hear your objections audience! Yet I [Beatrice] am here, now, and am about to kill you.
I’ve got this! Beatrice is “here”, her corpse is still on the island! Kinzo had it discovered by his assistants who help in the upkeep at Kuwadorin. He then kept her body in a suitable location, such as her previous bedroom, and it remains there to this very day.
Also I feel people are ignoring (or just not expressing) how much of a big deal "Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!" really is. It brings into question the motivation and circumstances of anyone and everyone who confirms his existence in the study. We must question ALL of them. And it also questions a belief we’ve held since around 33% of the way through Episode 3.
“We can’t trust anything Battler didn’t see, We can trust anything Battler did see.”
Previously I could shrug off the insanity at the end of Episode 2 with all sorts of methods, e.g: The scene is from the point of view of an omniscient Narrator, Battler cannot be described as seeing it because Battler has already lost all sense of self. Battler is never referred to by name by the narrator in that scene, maybe after he surrendered and became the witches furniture, he was sent off to some storage place, and the furniture that dressed and accompanied Beatrice wasn’t actually Battler. Maybe the one that dressed Beatrice was, but the one that came down the stairs with her was not, the list of possible ways of dodging it go on and on.
However Battler clearly saw Kinzo in that room. He clearly saw Kinzo alive. But we know from the red that Kinzo was long dead by this point. Unless we can redefine our rules for what we can trust, then we won’t be able to trust ANYTHING Battler sees, which makes it almost impossible to come to any conclusions about anything.
I figure I may as well (try to) answer your questions.
Who is Ushiromiya Battler?
One of the grandsons of Kinzo?
Who is the Meta Battler, and who is the Battler of the gameboard?
As covered in the Episode 2 tea party podcast, it seems likely that Meta Battler is the Battler who died in Episode 1. Gameboard Battler appears to be the Battler’s of each of the games, just like every other game piece.
Are they the same, or different, and how did they become different?
The nature of the Meta World, as well as how Battler ascended to it, appear to be a complete mystery for now.
Who was Battler born from, if not Asumu?
Probably someone Rudolf had sex with. In all seriousness though, I’d say the most likely candidate is Kyrie.
Does it matter?
It would mean that Kyrie or Rudolf would have had a reason to conceal that from him.
What was Battler’s sin?
Specifically? Ummmmmmmmm. I got nothing.
Why doesn’t he remember it?
As theorized by me, it may have not been a particularly notable event for him. Another theory (assuming the sin involves the Ushiromiyas), he was what, 12 (at the oldest) when it could have potentially happened. Maybe we forgot in the time that passed?
How did it lead to the deaths on the island?
Refer to my answer for “What was Battler’s sin?”.
And what has Beatrice so sulky?
She realized she has to act really out of character and show Battler a scene of her randomly roasting Kinzo in order to keep his death a secret. She knew it was only a matter of time until Battler saw through that, and was feeling like a sore loser at the time.
I have a question for YOU mimsy! If there’s any one else reading I’ve love for them to answer too. Just using your memory, thinking off the top of your head, How does Kinzo’s being dead from the start change the mystery and the likely suspects?
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This is definitely a game that gets you thinking! Lots of good thoughts here, @pictoshark. Let’s see, let’s see …
First off thank you for giving me permission to go from my memory and off the top off my head. There are some things I’d like to reread and double-check – who was shown speaking to Kinzo and when, who was the perspective character at the time, did they tell anyone else, etc … Natsuhi, Genji, Kanon, and Shannon come to mind. Did Nanjo speak to him, too, or was that only in flashbacks? And of course, Krauss spoke to him from outside the door … Hm. Before tangling with a specific case, let’s try to build some general principles.
If any character claims to have seen or spoken to Kinzo, they must have a reason for doing so.
That’s nice and general, right? It leaves room for multiple, equally acceptable reasons.
1. They know Kinzo is dead, and they are trying to maintain the illusion.
Krauss, for example, whenever he makes a production out of going to shout at Kinzo’s door. Natushi, the servants of the One-Winged Eagle, Nanjo, and even Jessica could fall in this category, as well. It would seem strange for Genji in particular not to know. But if Krauss is willing to keep secrets like the gold ingot from his wife … is it possible Natsuhi would not know?
2. They don’t know Kinzo is dead, and have been deceived.
This could be anyone who only speaks to Kinzo through his door, or who only sees his back. Either someone is throwing voices, pretending to be Kinzo, or playing a recording of one of Kinzo’s rants. This could, by the way, explain the obsessive behavior and dramatic mood swings we see in Kinzo. There are a limited number of recordings, mostly rants about magic and Beatrice. (Plus he really was that obsessed when he was alive. But now he repeats himself a lot.) The noxious smell coming from Kinzo’s study could be part of the deception … perhaps to make it seem like Kinzo is still alive and dabbling in alchemical arts, or perhaps to mask the chemicals used to preserve the body. From a distance, Kinzo’s body could still be a useful prop.
3. They may or may not know Kinzo is dead, but they need an alibi for that time.
It’s not an airtight alibi if they think Kinzo is alive and could contradict them, but considering how long he’s been cooped up in his room, and how little he likes to answer stupid questions, it’s a safe bet to take. If they’re the culprit, they can try to kill everyone before anyone manages to get the truth from Kinzo. And if they know Kinzo’s dead, well, the dead tell no tales. This makes everyone who used Kinzo as an alibi during the murders suspicious, but it also gives them a reason to lie other than being the murderer. It’s a double-edged sword.
4. They have petty, human reasons for lying – pride, etc.
This is the simplest explanation for Natushi’s conversation with Kinzo in the first episode. She didn’t speak to Kinzo at all, but at that point Eva wound her up so much that she couldn’t admit defeat … and then Eva just made things worse by harping on the receipt.
For some reason, though, I don’t really like that. Even in scenes where we can’t trust what we’re seeing, I like to think there’s a core of truth. Maybe she did use Genji’s key, maybe she did see or hear something in the study. And whatever it was, it was responsible for her change in mood when she went back to see Eva – her stronger, more confident mood.
Okay! So to sum up – if Kinzo is dead, then no one spoke to Kinzo. Anytime someone’s claimed as much, we have to question their reasons for making that claim. There are a selection of non-murdery reasons, but it makes any use of Kinzo as an alibi suspicious. Knowing Kinzo is dead, or discovering Kinzo is dead, could motivate different characters in different ways.
We should most closely examine instances where one character makes that claim to another. Spin the chessboard around, think about what that character has to gain. But we should probably also examine instances where the narrator is making the claim … just in case there’s some core of truth there.
One more thing, though. In two or more gameboards, Kinzo’s badly burnt body was found. (I say two or more because yeah, now that I think about it, he does get burned at the end of this episode, too. The police probably find him that way. Thank you, @pictoshark!) This may not really be his body – it may be a fake with polydactyl, planted to obscure the true culprit – but I will put forward the theory that it is Kinzo’s body, which has been preserved by chemicals, and it was burned to obscure that fact as well as to obscure the time of his death. The fumes smelled so awful not just because it was burning flesh, but because of the chemicals within the corpse.
This is a crucial piece of information! I think it’s crucial across the gameboard, but it’s most crucial in episodes one and three. In episodes one and three, Kinzo’s body was presented as a sacrifice. In episode one, his head was gouged with the Stake of Mammon, and in episode three, he was one of the six chosen by the key. What’s with that?! Can you sacrifice a dead man? Is that legal? Beaaaaaatriiiiiice!!!
(I can hear Beatrice cackling. ‘Life or death isn’t a problem for me! I can revive Kinzo and sacrifice him, again and again and again!!!’)
Okay, okay, forget what Beatrice thinks. Instead of saying ‘he was a sacrifice,’ let’s say ‘he was presented as though he was supposed to be part of this ritual series of murders.’ My first thought was that it could just be a coincidence – someone in on the conspiracy to keep Kinzo’s death a secret could have torched the body at the same time the murders started. But then the culprit just accepts it, goes ‘sure, I’ll use this one’ and stuck a stake in there?
The culprit, too, is making a claim that they encountered Kinzo. This is another claim we should examine very closely.
… Ultimately, the episode these principles heck up the most is this episode, where people are claiming to have seen Kinzo left and right. It seems to be for reason 2, they were deceived, but … let me hastily propose another reason.
5. Their claim was influenced by someone else.
Slight digression, when I play, I constantly check the UI to see if there are updates in the character list – when someone goes missing, or a body is found, or a new face is introduced on the witch side. In this episode, bodies kept hitting the floor, but no new deaths were added to the character list. This was consistent with previous episodes, where the deaths weren’t added until the ‘main party’ found the bodies, but … who is the main party in this case? Battler’s investigation sequence made that really obvious. Oh. It’s the party with Battler in it. What matters is what Battler sees, hears, knows. It’s probably been Battler the whole time.
For most of the fourth episode, Battler only hears about the deaths second-hand and over the phone. And he hears about Kinzo that way, too. IIRC Kinzo doesn’t speak to him directly, he has the parents pass the message. His parents who can only say what the culprit wants them to say, who are encouraged to keep chatter to a minimum – they say it’s Kinzo making them speak, and we’re supposed to believe that?
But you’re right that this makes the end of the second episode superweird, too. There Battler does see Kinzo with his own eyes. Is it for reason 2, is he being deceived? How?
Beaaaaatriiiiice!!!
This made something click in my head, though it was a soft and inconclusive click. Like the first number in a combination lock. There are a lot of biblical influences in Umineko, right? It’s scripture snuck into magical circles, but it’s scripture nevertheless. Not to mention the references to Dante with Beatrice, Virgil, the seven sins … ‘forgive the sin’ is even the incantation to invoke the sisters.
So maybe it’s something like ‘the sins of the father are visited upon the children, and the children’s children’? That does seem to be a theme in Umineko. It’s a theme in Maria’s family – when Rosa speaks to Maria with harsh words, they’re words that were spoken to Rosa at some point in her childhood. Humans pass on their sins to the next generation. So maybe Battler’s sin isn’t even his, or it isn’t just his. It’s the Ushiromiya family’s.
Hey, a couple of episodes ago didn’t Battler speculate that the human Beato was Beatrice’s and Kinzo’s secret daughter, who she died giving birth to? If that’s true, then she’s an Ushiromiya, too. And if she’s also the concept of the Rokkenjima killings, like @pictoshark is saying …
Hmmm. Hmm. I may be getting too metaphysical again.
It’s interesting, then, that Battler doesn’t get killed until the very end. Mostly he gets broken. He sees his family torn apart, and has to doubt and suspect that very same family. He has to witness all their sins. Maybe that’s it? It certainly does support the idea that what kills Battler in the end is the concept of the Rokkenjima Killings.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Another point which we may want to iron out is when Kinzo died. The red that verifies his death is VERY unspecific, all it says is that he is dead at the “start time” of the games. I mean, what the hell does the start time of the games even mean? How and why did Kinzo die?
Another thing, what is the nature of the false scenes we are shown? Does Beatrice have full control over what we see in them? If that’s the case, why did she show Battler the scene where the siblings discuss the possibility of Kinzo being dead? That gave Battler an amazing foothold to continue his attack, the less Battler knows about the truth, the better. If he continued on the incorrect Assumption that Kinzo was alive, he would have wasted LOADS of time. Why reveal that to him? Does Beatrice actually want to die?
But enough about the over arching narrative, let’s talk about Ep 4’s case. It’s quite a simple case, as Battler is seriously lacking in information here but the information he DOES have is incredibly limiting. I’m surprised Beatrice conceded defeat for this case so DAMN quickly in the tea party, there are SO MANY unsolved mysteries here.
How was the tool shed locked room constructed? The key was in Gohda’s pocket…
Why did Gohda+Kumasawa’s story line up so well with Kyrie’s?
Who is the killer? Did they kill themselves at the end, or did they die through an accident?
Why did Jessica know what she knew in her phone call? How would one know that their head will be destroyed next time they are found? How did she know George was dead?
Who was the Beatrice who spoke with Battler about his sin? It’s probably someone disguised as someone else, but if so, who?
What’s the deal with everything Kyrie tells Battler? Why is she almost directly supporting magic?
Has anyone got anything to say about any of these?
If it helps any, you can rest assured that the mysteries of Rokkenjima are entirely solvable from this point. Yes, that includes Battler’s sin from six years ago. As far as the mystery is concerned the remaining episodes are supplementary material to help guide your thinking.
Regarding the questionability of Battler’s perceptions, that’s not the only time they were questionable. At the end of Episode 1 he saw a storm of golden butterflies as Beatrice appeared, and at the end of Episode 4 he actually had a conversation with Beatrice. I don’t think it’s productive to start doubting everything Battler sees, but at the very least you need to find a way to reconcile with these problematic moments.
Also @mimsy you posted 4. twice.
But seriously, great discussion guys. I hope you are able to generate some theories of Beatrice’s identity by the time the Tea Party concludes, and close in on the heart of the mystery.
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Are the butterflies a signal of incoming unreliable Battler? Episode 4 Beatrice discussion didn’t have butterflies because that could be reasonably be explained by disguises and such, the person who disguised as Beatrice could have died later on, before Battler then found their body… You know what, I think I’ll lock that in, if only because it explains away two VERY problematic moments.
If Gameboard Battler sees Golden butterflies, then what he sees cannot be trusted. This invalidates the proofs of magic of Kinzo’s appearance at the end of EP 2 and Beatrice’s appearance at the end of EP 1.
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Hoh. Interesting. That’s the same sort of logic that critics of time paradoxes use. A time paradox cannot exist because if it did exist at any point in the timeline, our universe could not exist. The golden butterflies mark unreliable narration because golden butterflies can’t exist. It’s a bit of circular logic, but I’m interested to see how far that reasoning can take you.
It’s convenient, then, that Battler only sees the golden butterflies at the end of each Episode.
EDIT: I just made a big mistake that’s probably mislead you a little… Turns out there were no butterflies back in Episode 1, it was just Beatrice appearing beside Maria in her dress. I guess it was the sound effects that lead me to think that way? Or maybe I’m just remembering the anime version which did have butterflies…
So, well, I guess there’s only one case where the butterflies appeared before Battler, and that’s Episode 2. Sorry to mislead you.
tfw you’ll never be as articulate as Aspirety
PS: This is a joke, I don’t actually (joke spoilers) want to kill myself.
PPS: I know using spoiler tags for none spoiler is technically a rule infraction, but I think it counts, as the disclaimer spoils the joke soooooooo (please no ban).
Alright! Now I’ve got my GDA for jokes in poor taste out of the way, let’s line up some stupid Umineko theories while I compose my notes from my reread of Ep 1.
The way Beatrice corrects the number of people on the island has revealed a sort of GIANT problem
[quote=http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth ]Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!
Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island.
I will lower that by one for Kinzo!!
No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
That excludes any 18th person.
In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
This applies to all games!!![/quote]
This means that the dead (probably) don’t count towards the “number of humans existing on the island” variable. We can tell this because we find Kinzo’s corpse a LOT. Even if that corpse isn’t Kinzo, it’s still (probably) a human body.
There are three basic possibilities here (and of course the stupid fourth one):
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Dead people don’t count towards the “number of humans existing on the island” variable.
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Dead people DO count towards the “number of humans existing on the island” variable, but the Kinzo corpse was a mannequin or something similar
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Dead people DO count towards the “number of humans existing on the island” variable, and we have a BIG trick to unravel. (like Nanjo was really Genji in disguise the whole time or something)
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Just for completeness, I’ll note that the Red truth COULD be fallible. It’s a possibility, as much of a bad writing choice as it would be, it’s still a possibility.
I’m hoping for number 1, as 2 and 3 DESTROY my Beatrice theory. (or at least, make it hard to recover from).
In addition, 1 presents a number of ways for a mystery person X to still commit the crime. What if, for example, after at least one person died, a mystery person X arrived on the island through a powerful, sturdy boat of unknown construction that is capable of reaching Rokkenjima even through the typhoon.
Using this method it is possible for a killing to be committed by a human even if everyone has a alibi, by supposing that a paid assassin or something similar arrived after the first twilight.
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Be careful trusting that wiki, I’m pretty sure it’s based on the old translation.
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There’s no way the wording can mess THIS point up. Also maybe getting a red truth list for the new translation up somewhere on the site might be a good idea? Even if it was only up to date for the current tea party. In fact I think it might be really good if was up to the current tea party. Huh, might be an idea.