Umineko Episode 4 Spoiler-Free General

07th Discussion
#204

Hmph, I suppose it’s effective. Though that poses a new question: why were the occupants of the shed hung up?

Edit: Btw, since I let this pass by me…[quote=“pik3rob, post:194, topic:31”]
Rosa made Sakutarou according to a red truth. "That is a special stuffed animal! Made by Rosa for her daughter’s birthday, and in the entire world, the only. Doesn’t completely disprove everything about what you’re saying here, but Rosa did indeed make Sakutarou.
[/quote]Not necessarily. This is a little lost in translation, but in Japanese the essential part of that sentence would be at the end, meaning everything before that means nothing if it stands alone. And Beatrice cannot complete the sentence. What I’m getting is that it’s not necessarily her trying to say he’s the “only” Sakutaro that choked her, it’s also perfectly possible he wasn’t made by Rosa.

Even in English, there’s nothing tying the “Made by Rosa” to the previous sentence so long as she doesn’t finish the sentence, since the sentence could still be going in a completely different direction at that point.

#205

The troll within me wants to just ignore it and say that it doesn’t matter. However, another part of me won’t let me do that. So, lets have a good old fashioned think about this.

It seems apparent that the cause of death for the two occupants is the holes in their respective heads. The way that the bodies were set up seems to suggest that they were not killed by hanging. So, either the bodies were set up like that by the killer, or by the occupants themselves who willingly put themselves in those nooses. If the occupants put themselves in the nooses then they must have been shot afterwards. This would also suggest that they either trusted the person who asked them to do this or they were forced to do this. It could also suggest that they were playing dead. They may have been trying to fool the killer into thinking that they hung themselves and were then shot once the killer opened the shed by the means that I suggested in my blue. Thus we could modify my blue to answer your question:
Kumasawa and Gohda try and fool the killer into thinking they killed themselves. However the killer cut the original lock that was put on the shed and saw they were just faking. He killed both of them where they stood and relocked the shed with a new padlock, placing the key in Gohda’s pocket to make it seem like a closed room. Thus there is no need for there to be a witch.

1 Like
#206

shrug

I resign.

#207

Ok, I’m back with more evidence that I am as stubborn as, well, a goat. During the podcast I attempted to go through all the mysteries and work out how to solve everything using the Shannon-Kanon theory. There was one mystery that I couldn’t answer at the time. I couldn’t figure out the mystery of the first twilight of episode 3. How was there another body if Shannon and Kanon are the same person? How did this body get into the chapel? Well after a few days of thinking I’ve arrived at an unsatisfactory answer but an answer nonetheless.

So in episode 2 we are first introduced to the chapel and are forced to deal with this one-key horror. We are told that the people killed in the chapel have entered through the front door, that there is only one key that can open it, etc. We again see the chapel in the first twilight in episode 3 Where Kanon is found with his master key and the key to the parlor. During the podcast I said that it might be possible for Sayo to fake death and then once all the people had left the parlor to run over to the chapel. However I couldn’t figure out how that could be done since the key to the chapel is in the boiler room and no doors on Rokkenjima auto-lock aside from Kinzo’s study. So this would mean that somehow Sayo would have to get in through a locked room. But how? Well, upon rereading the part of episode 2 that deals with the chapel I noticed something. Beatrice rather scrupulously avoids ruling out hidden doors and passages. In fact, Battler brings it up several times but she always counters his assertions of a secret door through kind of roundabout ways. Not only that, in episode 3, when Virgilia reconstructs the first twilight we get our definition of a closed room and all the rooms are called a closed room except for the boiler room and the chapel. This leads to the, rather unsatisfactory, conclusion that Sayo could have done all of this through a secret tunnel between the boiler room and the chapel. I hate using secret passages but if we are to believe that there is this tunnel anyway between Kuwadorian and the main mansion on Rokkenjima why couldn’t there be an exit at both the boiler and the chapel? This might also explain why Kinzo didn’t want the children going into the chapel, since there was a chance they could stumble upon the secret entrance to the tunnel. Well, it’s something to think about and at least it gets rid of the biggest, concrete impediment to the Shannon-Kanon theory

#208

Sorry to burst your bubble but… Look what I found:

When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit

Be there 1 hidden passage, or 2, or 20, as long as the door is locked, you cannot enter!!! This is one of the first reds the beloved Beatrice-sama gave us!

I am allowed to post in-game already said reds right?

#209

Yus. Just make sure to use a good translation.

#210

I copied that from the wiki, I dunno if it is updated or not… Hmm… Maybe somebody could check the updated version?

#211

This only refers to any and all methods through the door. It’s possible to enter the chapel through a window, as shown in Episode 2. The red truth would be inherently false if it included methods other than through the door.

#212

Took the words right out of my mouth @pik3rob. The context for that quote is Battler suggesting that the door being locked did not actually matter about entry or exit. He then, after the red truth that @Wonderlander pointed out, immediately suggests that there could be another exit. Therefore I concluded that the red did not actually rule out a hidden passage.

#213

ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLRIGHT!

I’ve been on Rokkenjima for quite a while (almost a third of a year) and if there’s one thing I’ve heard a lot, from the Umineko rereads, to the time theorizing on discord, to hearing people talk about Umineko, there is ONE phrase that I hear repeated. I hear it all the time.

#Without love, it cannot be seen.

What does it mean? Well honestly it’s such an open ended statement that it could mean anything. But I’ve used it to form a new sentence, a new theory of my own.

#Without love for it, the truth of the story cannot be seen.

Love for Ryukishiki’s work. This tale that took over 4 years to write, which I’ve read half of. Without love, I will never reach the core. Without respecting his views, I’ll never understand the message Ryukishiki is trying to tell me. Without love for this mystery, I will never understand what truly happened.

This was the blade I was missing the whole time. The barbed sword of love. And with this sword capable of bringing the gods to heel, I will strike through to the truth of the matter. I might not be strong enough to get there. I’m probably not. However, after I go for the intial slash others can bore into the mark I left. We can keep going until the mystery is solved. And so.

#FROM THE TOP.

I have faith that Kanon and Shannon never appearing before Battler at the same time was an intentional move on Ryukishiki’s part and even if they are not the same person, it is a part of the experience of Umineko to suspect this possibility. Since Ryukishiki gave us this tool, I’m going to use it. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person then Kannon clearly has a decent number of secrets, it’s easy to pin a motive on him.

I have faith in Ryukishiki’s writing and believe he would not pull such a cheap trick as Kanon dying of natural causes after being stabbed in the chest, there is no foreshadowing for such a thing. Therefore I reject pik3rob’s argument on the matter, even if the red truth applies to Kanon, he is highly suspicious, as he is still alive at the end of the first game.

We need to use love to push our further assertions forward, as if we don’t have it,

#we will never see the truth.

7 Likes
#214

If we suspect Rosa as an accomplice for Game 2 then solving the first twilight is trivial. She is the one who states the door is locked, and then promptly “unlocks” it.

#Need I say more?

1 Like
#215

So, basically, love is faith in Ryukishi’s writing ability then. Okay, let’s make some assertions from this.

Ryukishi would never make the red truths such a big part of the plot and experience of Umineko, if he were to later retcon them, and make all the theorizing the readers made around the red truths pointless The red truths can in fact be trusted, and this won’t change in future episodes

Ryukishi would not make the truth behind the events of the story unrealistic, or something that is too out of realm of possibility, that it seems entirely ridiculous Battler’s theories on the matter such as small bombs, or incredibly convenient traps are not to be believed, as they are too far out there to be the truth. To add to this, the explanation of how Ange survived the drop from the building in 1998 falls into this category, so Ange did die from falling off a roof in 1998, and the events that followed afterwards did not happen.

I remember a theory from the podcast that was brought up, so I’ll bring it up here. Ryukishi would never make Battler’s sin, and the motive of the culprit be something as silly and petty as Battler promising to return the following year, but never doing so. While it can be Battler’s sin that he broke that promise, nobody is crazy enough to simply murder people as a result of that promise being broken, as it was not important enough that killing people would be necessary.

1 Like
#216

Since Picto isn’t here to post his creation now that its not a double post I shall do it for him. This is his reaction.

5 Likes
#217

KANONS is the new JUNKOS.

1 Like
#218

Yet again if we’re saying that Kannon is the main killer then the second twilight of Episode 2 is also pathetic! It offers almost no resistance at all! The only extra push we need is saying that as kanon is a servant and Kanon is not his true name any reds that rely on using the name Kanon to refer to him are vacuous truths.

This isn’t mistreating Ryukishiki’s game, far from it! I have faith that “You are incompetant! hiihhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi” was crucial rule setting, not just a one off joke that breaks the story a little bit in hindsight.

The second Kanon offers almost no resistance at all either! It’s solved exactly the same way as the second twilight!

What we REALLY need to sort out is the seeming contradictions to the Kannon theory.

Like Hideyoshi seeing her body in the shed, etc…

I would also like to note than Kannon is clearly quite the master of disguise on at least some level, so I’m going to seal in Kannon being the Beatrice in front of the portrait at the end of Episode 1.

4 Likes
#219

Well having had several hours to kill on a very long series of plane flights I thought I would take a look at something again. I rechecked the first twilight from episode 3 and lo and behold I found another answer that does not require secret tunnels but will probably piss more people off than any other answer that I could have given. The door to the chapel is not locked in the first place

…

I’m awaiting the angry mob now.

Actually before you lynch me I’d like you to go back over the scene again for yourself. It never actually says that the door was locked or that it was opened with the key or anything like that. I’ve already said before that the chapel is not called a closed room in Virgilia’s reconstruction. Battler assumes a closed room scenario and Beatrice doesn’t bother to correct him. Naturally you will say that when Battler says that it is a linked chain closed room Beatrice says, “That’s correct.” However, I’d like to counter that by saying something that I said in an earlier solution to this mystery: the boiler room cannot be a closed room. There is an entrance into the courtyard that we are told is impossible to lock. Just wanted to get this theory out there for people to be angry about.

5 Likes
#220

Seraphitic requested that I upload some song lyrics to the forum here, so here I am doing so! These are the lyrics for the Episode 4 ED ‘Dis Code’ that I grabbed from here.

DisCode
Vocals: Sakura Kanae
Lyrics: Sakura Kanae & sunny
Composition: cap
Arrangement: xaki

If the one who rules over the future wishes for it
I can even stick out my arms and legs
So please grant my wish…

(Just one is fine)

The paradise that the one who rules over the past yearned for
Is here; it’s not there
I can never make my way to it

(I don’t even know the way back)

I can’t return
The door behind me vanished

Guide the two who must meet
Even if it’s the moment of the birth of the universe

In the mansion that you must not tread upon
Because I’ll show you I love everything
Even if it’s a set trap, I’ll show you I ridicule and laugh at it

I even turn the memory of sorrow into the tool to blame the one who rules over the present
And I’ll whisper just once

Dis Code

The rain is ceaseless, I bring along the one who is to rule over everything
And aim for the paradise of finale

The story starts from there…

At the edges of my lips
If I quietly repeated the future isn’t expected to come
For a smile just once more on your face that I envy…

Let’s sing a song that praises the one who rules over everything
Everyone seems to be upside-down in the blood-smeared paradise
Let’s confront them with childish guns

(Come on, are you ready?)

It’s lonely to be by myself, so I can’t sleep
Please let me hear you forever

Please sing next to me
At least until the next moment when I wake up

From the door that you must never open
Faintly, I hear a final prayer
Now there’s a fleeting projection of a dream even in your eyes begging for forgiveness

If sorrow is a memory, then I’ll stop waiting for salvation
And I’ll whisper just once

Dis Code

My wish will never be granted
The promise, unkept, disperses

I won’t stop praying…

If the thing known as ‘death’ exists
Then the figure reflected in my window is…what?

If only suffering is happiness
Then this is happiness

In the mansion that you must not tread upon
Because I’ll show you I love everything
I want you to ridicule and laugh at it, saying ‘it’s a set trap’

I even turn the memory of sorrow into the tool to blame the Endless Witch
And I’ll whisper just once

Dis Code

In the mansion that you must not tread upon
Because I’ll show you I love everything
Even if it’s a set trap, I’ll show you I ridicule and laugh at it

Please even turn the memory of sorrow into the tool to kill the one who got caught in this whirlpool of rebirth
And whisper just once

Dis Code

The rain is ceaseless, I bring along the one who is to rule over everything
And aim for the paradise of finale

The story starts from here…

DisCode
Vocals: Sakura Kanae

Anata ga nozomu no nara
Ude mo ashi mo sashidaseru wa
Dakara douka negai o kanaete…

(Tatta hitotsu dake de ii)

Anata ga sagashiteta
Haru wa koko yo sonna toko ni wa nai no
Tadoritsukenai eien ni

(Kaerimichi sura mo wakaranai)

Modoru koto nado dekinai no
Ushiro no michi wa kiete shimatta

Deau hazu no futari michibiite
Tatoeba hajimari no toki de atte mo

Kindan no yakata de wa
Subete aishite miseru kara
Shikumareta wana da to mo azakeri waratte miserun da

Kanashimi no kioku sura anata o semeru dougu ni shite
Ichido dake sasayaku yo

Dis Code

Ame wa yamazu ni anata o tsurete
Shuumatsu no rakuen o mezasu

Hajimari wa soko kara…

Kuchibiru no hashi ni
Sotto konai mirai kasaneta nara
Netamashii sono kao ni mou ichido dake hohoemi o…

Sanbika o utaou
Koko de wa minna sakasama ni mieru
Omocha no juu de tachimukaou

(Saa kakugo wa dekita no ka?)

Hitori ja kodoku de nemurenai no
Kikasete watashi ni douka zutto

Tonari de utattete kudasai
Semete tsugi ni mezameru toki made

Kindan no tobira kara
Kasuka ni kikoeru inori wa
Yurushikou sono me sae ima de wa hakanai yumeutsushi

Kanashimi ga kioku nara sukui o matsu koto wa yamete
Ichido dake sasayaku yo

Dis Code

Towa ni kanawazu kono negai
Yakusoku wa hatasarezu chiri yuku

Owaranai inori o…

Shi to iu mono ga aru no nara
Kono mado ni utsuru mono wa…nani?

Kurushimi dake ga shiawase nara
Kore ga shiawase

Kindan no yakata de wa
Subete aishite miseru kara
Shikumareta wana da yo to azakeri waratte hoshiin da

Kanashimi no kioku sura anata o semeru dougu ni shite
Ichido dake sasayaku yo

Dis Code

Kindan no yakata de wa
Subete aishite miseru kara
Shikumareta wana da to mo azakeri waratte miserun da

Kanashimi no kioku sura watashi o korosu dougu ni shite
Ichido dake sasayaite

Dis Code

Ame wa yamazu ni anata o tsurete
Shuumatsu no rakuen o mezasu

Hajimari wa koko kara…

DisCode
歌：佐倉かなえ
作詞：佐倉かなえ、sunny
作曲：cap
編曲：xaki

未来を支配する者が望むのなら
腕も脚も差し出せるわ
だからどうか願いを叶えて…

（たったひとつだけでいい）

過去を支配する者が求めてた
楽園は此処よ そんな所にはないの
辿り着けない永遠に

（帰り道すらもわからない）

戻ることなどできないの
後ろの扉は消えてしまった

出逢うはずの二人導いて
例えば宇宙誕生の瞬間であっても

踏み込んではいけない館では
総て愛してみせるから
仕組まれた罠だとも 嘲り笑ってみせるんだ

哀しみの記憶すら 現在を支配する者を責める道具にして
一度だけ 囁くよ

Dis Code

雨は止まずに 統べてを支配しようとする者を連れて
終末の楽園を目指す

物語はそこから…

くちびるの端に
そっと来るはずのない未来重ねたなら
妬ましいその顔にもう一度だけ微笑みを…

総てを支配する者を讃える歌を歌おう
血塗られた楽園ではみんな逆さまに見える
幼稚な銃で立ち向かおう

(さぁ覚悟はできたのか？)

独りじゃ孤独で眠れないの
聞かせて私にどうかずっと

隣で歌っててください
せめて次に目覚める瞬間まで

決して開けてはいけない扉から
微かに聞こえる最期の祈りは
許し乞うその目さえ 今では儚い夢映し

哀しみが記憶なら 救いを待つことは止めて
一度だけ 囁くよ

Dis Code

永久に叶わず この願い
約束は果たされず散りゆく

終わらない祈りを…

死というものがあるのなら
この窓に映る姿は…何？

苦しみだけが幸せなら
これが幸せ

踏み込んではいけない館では
総て愛してみせるから
仕組まれた罠だよと 嘲り笑ってほしいんだ

哀しみの記憶すら 無限の魔女を責める道具にして
一度だけ 囁くよ

Dis Code

踏み込んではいけない館では
総て愛してみせるから
仕組まれた罠だとも 嘲り笑ってみせるんだ

悲しみの記憶すら この輪廻の渦に巻き込まれた者を殺す道具にして
一度だけ 囁いて

Dis Code

雨は止まずに 統べてを支配しようとする者を連れて
終末の楽園を目指す

物語はここから…

3 Likes
#221

Great job aspi! Thanks for your dedication.

#222

Weak! The Umineko universe is already established to be a multiverse of hundreds of potential worlds that are referred to as fragments! It is not bizzare for unlikely occurences to be depicted in stories that are explicitly stated to occur in multiverses, as we might just be seeing the fragment where Ange fortunately survived, rather than seeing the grisly death that met her in dozens of other fragments.

EDIT (to avoid double posting): [quote=“Aspirety, post:195, topic:31”]
However, a statement like “The witch before your eyes stole away my whole family” is a very interesting thing to say in the red, since it has a definite truth value. If it was false, she would be choking up.
[/quote]

Ahahaha… Nice one me, forgetting about this point…

I guess it’s another red to throw on the “Beatrice true identity hint” pile! Well, it doesn’t contradict my previous theory, so at least there’s that…

1 Like
#223

Since I haven’t been here for a while, what’s with the pink text?