Umineko Episode 6 Full Series Spoilers General

07th Discussion
#6

I don’t remember the exact rules of the story itself and how each Beatrice is a personification of them, but I can try and answer the other questions to the best of my ability for you. (Though as to moving topics, I’m not sure myself.)

The Beatrice revived is, one could say, a Beatrice who is like an innocent child (sort of like the child Kuwadorian Beatrice at the start of EP3). I’m not sure if you’ve read EP7 or 8 or not, so I don’t want to go into too many details, but you could say that he brought her back to life as essentially a new person, somewhat kind of like Victor Frankenstein making a creature, but Battler was doing it for a far less sinister intention, and most likely brought her back with the feelings of love the original Beatrice had. I don’t recall Chick Beatrice ever being referred to as the older one (she calls the longer haired one Older Sister), but Elder Beatrice represents the legend of Beatrice, which has lasted longer than say, 18 years, on Rokkenjima, and Chick Beatrice is younger due to Beatrice’s love developing later than the legend. So Chick Beatrice is not the same person as the one we’ve seen through EP5, she died and gave up on Battler (how she died).

Beato shows her love by tormenting her crush, how tsundere (and it’s why Battler outright says “Just write a letter next time”).

I can explain more if you’ve finished EP7 at the least, but if you haven’t, I don’t wish to get into details.

#7

i have read pretty much everything so far, but i havent gotten to the core of the story. basically my interpretation so far is the trial in ep 6, is just a more vague version of the trials in episode 7. the story repeatedly mentions how “love” is needed to see the truth. so i was guessing that even the complete beatrice from ep 1-4 have this quality of love for battler. im also assuming maybe beatrice motive from the beginning, was for battler to see through everything and stop him… maybe it was a test for battler himself. though im not sure

#8

That is correct. The love trial in EP6 is just a huge fantasy version of the trials in EP7 (where Miss Spoiler-chan cannot decide who to love, and seeing that once Battler is out of the picture, it just boils down to a pick between who gets to live and be loved). It doesn’t really shine through until EP3 that Beato has that form of love the Chick Beatrice has for Battler (and to be fair, a lot of people doubted it because of the trick in EP3), it’s just really difficult to spot unless you’re looking for it.

You are correct in guessing the motive. It goes by quickly at the very end of EP4, but the words there outright confirm that what you believe the motive is to be the answer (and it’s implied in EP5 with Battler trying to guess her motive). She wants Battler and only Battler to find out the truth because she heavily believes in him and styled the games as a murder mystery since he’s (supposedly) an expert in them as much as she is.

I do hope you can find the EP8 manga out there that isn’t missing any chapters or pages (since a lot of the online translations are missing those). There’s a bit that explains the core of the story partway through called Confession of the Golden Witch (and the end of it also explains a lot of vague things about the end, including how the games of the series happened).

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#9

I know many, many people will disagree, but this has to be my favorite episode of entire Umineko. The love trials especially. I actually cried during the duel. Plus, it may be subjective, but this is the game we learn the most about Yasu’s emotional state alongside Ep7. All that love Battler puts into the game, it is even said that it was the most beautiful board he could weave in Ep7… Plus the end of the episode was just epic. Pure epic. Isn’t it?

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#10

Episode 6 is actually my least favorite episode, I just can’t get over the gross Battler/Kinzo parallels, but I really wish I liked it! It has some of the most exciting moments in the entire series, and the way Erika gets her ass handed to her in the end is pure catharsis! In spite of all my dislike for it, I have to concede that “Even if you do join us… There are only 17 people.” is the most badass line in the whole story.

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#11

I also liked it really. I think it personally depends on which side you were invested on: the mystery or fantasy? as I favored it as fantasy, I loved the whole love conflicts going on as well as the battles. in regards, the whole topic of “love” is something that really interests me, as my personal title is the “romance expert”

as it is, I can see why there’s a lot of people who would say it is bad or even the worst, because it seems like a whole lot of “filler” for some magic stuff instead of “plot” aka mystery solving stuff. previous games you had to deal with several red truths and find some way to go about it… this one kinda goes against it, as there’s only one locked room/riddle, and the point is that they "DON’T" want it to be solved(otherwise erika wins and game over).

#12

…Wasn’t one of the points about Battler’s character was that he was literally Kinzo 2.0? Though I will admit, I wasn’t fond of the Battler/Kinzo parallelism in this EP6, mostly because a lot of it was very ‘on the nose,’ and after reading EP7, it didn’t feel I could analyze beyond what was on the surface. It wasn’t organic unlike most Umineko parallels.
Anyway, while I admit I hated this Episode during my first read, I actually came to appreciate and consider it just ‘okay’ the second time around. I don’t really have a lot of emotion about EP6, other than its good for story/character analysis and further exploring/explaining the mystery. Reading Rainbow with Featherine was pretty great.
…I won’t forgive Ryukishi for not capitalizing on Battler’s depression though. It still pisses me off along with the many ‘extremely good/interesting but never fully realized plot lines,’ this EP had.

#13

I’d like it if you guys helped me sort out my feelings for the main story of Episode 6. I’m kind of not sure what to think about it overall.

When I say the main story of Episode 6 I mean the narrative: Beatrice ‘resurrects’ through the rules of the world in the form of Chick- and Elder-Beato. Battler has Chick-Beato participate in the love trials. Battler gets locked away by Erika. Chick-Beato regains her witch self and goes to rescue Battler. They defeat Erika and her and Battler get married.

This is strange to me on quite a few levels. We have it confirmed again and again. ’That’ Beato will never revive. So on a significant level, the resurrection of Beato feels hollow, at least to me. Accepting that Beato is reviving is kind of accepting the magic of the Golden Land, is it not? And while I can see that being the point, it’s not really all that satisfying ultimately, since the original Beato, the one who started it all, is still dead and will never realize Battler solved her tale. It doesn’t feel like a happy ending, because ultimately, even Beato herself rejected the Golden Land ending - think back to Episode 3.

What do you think?

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#14

I think that was the point tbh. EP6 was never meant to be a happy ending-only give Sayo a chance of catharsis-knowing that while her fate would ultimately never change, at least she wouldn’t be tormented during life.
Besides, I think its important to recognize that Sayo the human player does not equal Beatrice.

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#15

Oh god yes, this exactly. It was absolutely gut wrenching every time I saw Chick Beato. All their attempts to get her to crack a smile or respond in any way, I’d cling so desperately to the hope that they’d succeed and I was crestfallen over her lack of response.

While a version of Beatrice was “revived,” I never forgot that red truth and so her return felt fake. I felt the same as I did over Maria’s “magic” to create candy and the like. I knew on some level it was fake, but I put on a happy mask and pretended I didn’t notice. So too with Beatrice’s return.

#16

It’s also interesting because it’s kind of the reverse Kinzo situation, isn’t it? People like drawing a parallel, but it kind of goes in the exact opposite direction. Whereas Kinzo forced the identity of Beatrice onto someone who was definitively a different person, Battler denied the same thing and him coming to terms with this new Beato being ‘Beato’ despite not being… Beato… is kind of the ‘happy ending’ here.

What do you think is the intention here? What is the story trying to tell us by contrasting this to Kinzo’s situation?

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#17

I think the story is telling us that Waifuism is bad and that you shouldn’t be a pushy little shit towards your significant other.

Anyway getting more serious, I was wondering what Beato meant in this EP by saying she was made for Battler’s sake? If anything, EP7 tells us that Beatrice was made for Sayo’s sake, who was then tweaked a bit to suit Battler’s tastes more.
Even though the previous Beatrice was technically created by Battler and a lot of her actions were for his sake, it never annoyed me like Chick!Beatrice did.
Any thoughts on this matter?
Edit: And I have another question. The three main love trials in EP6 showed us three types of excessive love. The first was smothering, the second was obsession, and the third was infatuation. While George v Eva was definitely about a smothering sort of love, and reflected George’s smothering tendencies towards Shannon and Shannon doing the same albeit subtly, what did Jessica v Kyrie and Beatrice v Natsuhi reflect?
While Kyrie was certainly obsessed with Rudolf, I can’t say the same of Jessica and Kanon as the two are moreso infatuated with the other and didn’t even understand each other at all in the end-part of the reason why Kanon lost the duel.
In terms of Chick!Beatrice, while she does exhibit all the common signs of being infatuated, sometimes I wonder if its an obsessive type of love she and Battler share.

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#18

I think this is one of those weird situations where the meta world is being super symbolic and you have to kind of weave through the whole thing to get the actual, real meaning of it. In a sense, you could say the meta world is just people in the real world coming to terms with their fate on Rokkenjima, as that’s a pretty big theme throughout a lot of it… But that’s for another discussion.

We know outside the meta world that there’s just Sayo and Battler. In the end, all the Beatrices and love trials are really Sayo’s internal struggles; perhaps the old Beatrice dying was more so the death of her hopes and such, with the new Beatrice going through the “thousand years” in the logic error and ‘merging’ with the island’s Beatrice legend to become like the old Beatrice symbolic of her own mental reconstruction of her identity; she had it broken by Battler’s lie and apparent inability to remember and condemned the island to explode, but Battler remembered, sought her out, and invited her back (the game, the marriage, etc.), and she rebuilt her identity to join him (love trials, logic error, birth of new thousand-years Beatrice), thereafter leaving the now-exploded island with Battler as we saw in Ep. 8. Or something similar, mayhaps.

It would make sense to say “That Beato will never revive”, since you can’t go back in time before a ‘betrayal’; a relationship after a breakup and reconciliation is different than before. Could be better than before; could be worse. But either way different.

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#19

My personal interpretation would be that Jessica would eventually end up just like Kyrie since she would never actually be able to connect with Kanon (Episode 7 spoilers) since Kanon technically is Shannon simultaneously, per the official explanation, also falling in with Erika’s solution.

Jessica probably deeply lusted for Kanon although since her parents would disapprove, as apparently they would have many things in Jessica’s life, since even in Ep. 2 she admits that she can be herself when not in Rokkenjima Mansion. It’s probably as a result of all of these pressures that she kept all of her feelings under wraps. She also had to be tactful approaching Kanon, because if she veritably inundated him with her emotions she would sooner have him moving away rather than toward her, hence her apparent shyness. Ultimately, it’s a losing battle, since sooner or later she’d have to be honest with Kanon, and she’d have to run the risk of losing him. So in the intervening time it’s entirely possible she might obsess over him and the kind of life he might live like Kyrie felt for Rudolf during his marriage with Asumu.

Beatrice vs Natsuhi I think is more to do with the fact that their significant others are incapable of comprehending the love they hold for them, and misinterpret it and distance themselves from them, causing the two women even more grief inadvertently and making them feel unwanted or as hindrances. The Beatrice here, of course refers to Chick Beatrice.

(Episode 7 spoilers)

There’s another possible interpretation that Beatrice killed Natsuhi for vengeance, since Natsuhi basically ruined her life from the outset, or that both were trying to atone for their mistakes, Natsuhi for killing the maid that carried the child, and Beatrice for killing the entire Ushiromiya family. Of course, this takes into account that Chick Beatrice remembered her actions as the original Beatrice

There’s virtually no corroborating evidence for any of these theories, so different interpretations will no doubt exist.

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#20
#21

I didn’t like Episode 6 too much, it was very slow in the beginning and it took some time for me to get into, but I’m willing to elaborate on that and discuss the better parts of it, too. Maybe @Karifean can give us some key questions like he did in the Episode 5 thread?

#22

I’ll open with a few questions to get things going:

Side Ange:
Why did Ikuko meet with Ange?
Why did Ikuko want Ange to read her script?
What were the answers that Featherine already figured out?
What was Amakusa’s phone call about?

#23

One odd thing I noticed is how Kyrie talks about certainty and miracles a lot, it’s even in quotations. Why are they drawing such a parallel between Kyrie and those two witches?

#24

To add on my own question on the ones piling up:
Umineko When They Cry Episode 6: Dlanor Cucks Gaap - The Movie.
Wtf was with this part?
I don’t know why, but for some reason this part sticks out to me more than any other scene in episode 6.
For those of you who don’t remember, Gaap was totally about to solve the logic error in much the same way that it ends up being solved anyway, but Dlanor forbids reasoning on the window that Kanon eventually ends up escaping out of - and completely cucks Gaap, like I said.
And, although this question should probably take place in a different topic, I’ll ask it here since the answer would have impact on my earlier question: Who is Gaap? Ronove is Genji and Virgilia is Kumasawa, so is Gaap supposed to be anyone in particular? I remember being under the impression for some reason that Gaap was another “manifestation”(or whatever) of Yasu, but I don’t know how I reached that conclusion. When thinking about Yasu’s allies that aren’t already taken, the only one that comes to mind is Maria.
The point is, if she actually was another manifestation of Yasu, she would even know the truth of the world, and be able to pull that dumbass Shkanon swap trick that Beato ends up pulling.
And even if she doesn’t know, sure she’d have to admit that Kanon was in the closet, but at least she’d get Battler out of the logic error, which is really more important at this point.
And Dlanor pulls this bullshit. She’s generally portrayed to be a fair character, but here and in the Kinzo’s Body case in ep 5, she’s not being fair at all. And if she’s allowed to do that, why doesn’t she do it more often!?

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#25

Regarding your question on Gaap, in Answer to the Golden Witch, Ryukishi said, “She is just a personification who became a witch, symbolizing the notion of ‘things often vanish’,” that’s as much of an answer as I think we’ve been given.

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