Episode 6 is actually my least favorite episode, I just can’t get over the gross Battler/Kinzo parallels, but I really wish I liked it! It has some of the most exciting moments in the entire series, and the way Erika gets her ass handed to her in the end is pure catharsis! In spite of all my dislike for it, I have to concede that “Even if you do join us… There are only 17 people.” is the most badass line in the whole story.
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I also liked it really. I think it personally depends on which side you were invested on: the mystery or fantasy? as I favored it as fantasy, I loved the whole love conflicts going on as well as the battles. in regards, the whole topic of “love” is something that really interests me, as my personal title is the “romance expert”
as it is, I can see why there’s a lot of people who would say it is bad or even the worst, because it seems like a whole lot of “filler” for some magic stuff instead of “plot” aka mystery solving stuff. previous games you had to deal with several red truths and find some way to go about it… this one kinda goes against it, as there’s only one locked room/riddle, and the point is that they "DON’T" want it to be solved(otherwise erika wins and game over).
…Wasn’t one of the points about Battler’s character was that he was literally Kinzo 2.0? Though I will admit, I wasn’t fond of the Battler/Kinzo parallelism in this EP6, mostly because a lot of it was very ‘on the nose,’ and after reading EP7, it didn’t feel I could analyze beyond what was on the surface. It wasn’t organic unlike most Umineko parallels.
Anyway, while I admit I hated this Episode during my first read, I actually came to appreciate and consider it just ‘okay’ the second time around. I don’t really have a lot of emotion about EP6, other than its good for story/character analysis and further exploring/explaining the mystery. Reading Rainbow with Featherine was pretty great.
…I won’t forgive Ryukishi for not capitalizing on Battler’s depression though. It still pisses me off along with the many ‘extremely good/interesting but never fully realized plot lines,’ this EP had.
I’d like it if you guys helped me sort out my feelings for the main story of Episode 6. I’m kind of not sure what to think about it overall.
When I say the main story of Episode 6 I mean the narrative: Beatrice ‘resurrects’ through the rules of the world in the form of Chick- and Elder-Beato. Battler has Chick-Beato participate in the love trials. Battler gets locked away by Erika. Chick-Beato regains her witch self and goes to rescue Battler. They defeat Erika and her and Battler get married.
This is strange to me on quite a few levels. We have it confirmed again and again. ’That’ Beato will never revive. So on a significant level, the resurrection of Beato feels hollow, at least to me. Accepting that Beato is reviving is kind of accepting the magic of the Golden Land, is it not? And while I can see that being the point, it’s not really all that satisfying ultimately, since the original Beato, the one who started it all, is still dead and will never realize Battler solved her tale. It doesn’t feel like a happy ending, because ultimately, even Beato herself rejected the Golden Land ending - think back to Episode 3.
What do you think?
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I think that was the point tbh. EP6 was never meant to be a happy ending-only give Sayo a chance of catharsis-knowing that while her fate would ultimately never change, at least she wouldn’t be tormented during life.
Besides, I think its important to recognize that Sayo the human player does not equal Beatrice.
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Oh god yes, this exactly. It was absolutely gut wrenching every time I saw Chick Beato. All their attempts to get her to crack a smile or respond in any way, I’d cling so desperately to the hope that they’d succeed and I was crestfallen over her lack of response.
While a version of Beatrice was “revived,” I never forgot that red truth and so her return felt fake. I felt the same as I did over Maria’s “magic” to create candy and the like. I knew on some level it was fake, but I put on a happy mask and pretended I didn’t notice. So too with Beatrice’s return.
It’s also interesting because it’s kind of the reverse Kinzo situation, isn’t it? People like drawing a parallel, but it kind of goes in the exact opposite direction. Whereas Kinzo forced the identity of Beatrice onto someone who was definitively a different person, Battler denied the same thing and him coming to terms with this new Beato being ‘Beato’ despite not being… Beato… is kind of the ‘happy ending’ here.
What do you think is the intention here? What is the story trying to tell us by contrasting this to Kinzo’s situation?
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I think the story is telling us that Waifuism is bad and that you shouldn’t be a pushy little shit towards your significant other.
Anyway getting more serious, I was wondering what Beato meant in this EP by saying she was made for Battler’s sake? If anything, EP7 tells us that Beatrice was made for Sayo’s sake, who was then tweaked a bit to suit Battler’s tastes more.
Even though the previous Beatrice was technically created by Battler and a lot of her actions were for his sake, it never annoyed me like Chick!Beatrice did.
Any thoughts on this matter?
Edit: And I have another question. The three main love trials in EP6 showed us three types of excessive love. The first was smothering, the second was obsession, and the third was infatuation. While George v Eva was definitely about a smothering sort of love, and reflected George’s smothering tendencies towards Shannon and Shannon doing the same albeit subtly, what did Jessica v Kyrie and Beatrice v Natsuhi reflect?
While Kyrie was certainly obsessed with Rudolf, I can’t say the same of Jessica and Kanon as the two are moreso infatuated with the other and didn’t even understand each other at all in the end-part of the reason why Kanon lost the duel.
In terms of Chick!Beatrice, while she does exhibit all the common signs of being infatuated, sometimes I wonder if its an obsessive type of love she and Battler share.
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I think this is one of those weird situations where the meta world is being super symbolic and you have to kind of weave through the whole thing to get the actual, real meaning of it. In a sense, you could say the meta world is just people in the real world coming to terms with their fate on Rokkenjima, as that’s a pretty big theme throughout a lot of it… But that’s for another discussion.
We know outside the meta world that there’s just Sayo and Battler. In the end, all the Beatrices and love trials are really Sayo’s internal struggles; perhaps the old Beatrice dying was more so the death of her hopes and such, with the new Beatrice going through the “thousand years” in the logic error and ‘merging’ with the island’s Beatrice legend to become like the old Beatrice symbolic of her own mental reconstruction of her identity; she had it broken by Battler’s lie and apparent inability to remember and condemned the island to explode, but Battler remembered, sought her out, and invited her back (the game, the marriage, etc.), and she rebuilt her identity to join him (love trials, logic error, birth of new thousand-years Beatrice), thereafter leaving the now-exploded island with Battler as we saw in Ep. 8. Or something similar, mayhaps.
It would make sense to say “That Beato will never revive”, since you can’t go back in time before a ‘betrayal’; a relationship after a breakup and reconciliation is different than before. Could be better than before; could be worse. But either way different.
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My personal interpretation would be that Jessica would eventually end up just like Kyrie since she would never actually be able to connect with Kanon (Episode 7 spoilers) since Kanon technically is Shannon simultaneously, per the official explanation, also falling in with Erika’s solution.
Jessica probably deeply lusted for Kanon although since her parents would disapprove, as apparently they would have many things in Jessica’s life, since even in Ep. 2 she admits that she can be herself when not in Rokkenjima Mansion. It’s probably as a result of all of these pressures that she kept all of her feelings under wraps. She also had to be tactful approaching Kanon, because if she veritably inundated him with her emotions she would sooner have him moving away rather than toward her, hence her apparent shyness. Ultimately, it’s a losing battle, since sooner or later she’d have to be honest with Kanon, and she’d have to run the risk of losing him. So in the intervening time it’s entirely possible she might obsess over him and the kind of life he might live like Kyrie felt for Rudolf during his marriage with Asumu.
Beatrice vs Natsuhi I think is more to do with the fact that their significant others are incapable of comprehending the love they hold for them, and misinterpret it and distance themselves from them, causing the two women even more grief inadvertently and making them feel unwanted or as hindrances. The Beatrice here, of course refers to Chick Beatrice.
(Episode 7 spoilers)
There’s another possible interpretation that Beatrice killed Natsuhi for vengeance, since Natsuhi basically ruined her life from the outset, or that both were trying to atone for their mistakes, Natsuhi for killing the maid that carried the child, and Beatrice for killing the entire Ushiromiya family. Of course, this takes into account that Chick Beatrice remembered her actions as the original Beatrice
There’s virtually no corroborating evidence for any of these theories, so different interpretations will no doubt exist.
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I didn’t like Episode 6 too much, it was very slow in the beginning and it took some time for me to get into, but I’m willing to elaborate on that and discuss the better parts of it, too. Maybe @Karifean can give us some key questions like he did in the Episode 5 thread?
I’ll open with a few questions to get things going:
Side Ange:
Why did Ikuko meet with Ange?
Why did Ikuko want Ange to read her script?
What were the answers that Featherine already figured out?
What was Amakusa’s phone call about?
One odd thing I noticed is how Kyrie talks about certainty and miracles a lot, it’s even in quotations. Why are they drawing such a parallel between Kyrie and those two witches?
To add on my own question on the ones piling up:
Umineko When They Cry Episode 6: Dlanor Cucks Gaap - The Movie.
Wtf was with this part?
I don’t know why, but for some reason this part sticks out to me more than any other scene in episode 6.
For those of you who don’t remember, Gaap was totally about to solve the logic error in much the same way that it ends up being solved anyway, but Dlanor forbids reasoning on the window that Kanon eventually ends up escaping out of - and completely cucks Gaap, like I said.
And, although this question should probably take place in a different topic, I’ll ask it here since the answer would have impact on my earlier question: Who is Gaap? Ronove is Genji and Virgilia is Kumasawa, so is Gaap supposed to be anyone in particular? I remember being under the impression for some reason that Gaap was another “manifestation”(or whatever) of Yasu, but I don’t know how I reached that conclusion. When thinking about Yasu’s allies that aren’t already taken, the only one that comes to mind is Maria.
The point is, if she actually was another manifestation of Yasu, she would even know the truth of the world, and be able to pull that dumbass Shkanon swap trick that Beato ends up pulling.
And even if she doesn’t know, sure she’d have to admit that Kanon was in the closet, but at least she’d get Battler out of the logic error, which is really more important at this point.
And Dlanor pulls this bullshit. She’s generally portrayed to be a fair character, but here and in the Kinzo’s Body case in ep 5, she’s not being fair at all. And if she’s allowed to do that, why doesn’t she do it more often!?
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Regarding your question on Gaap, in Answer to the Golden Witch, Ryukishi said, “She is just a personification who became a witch, symbolizing the notion of ‘things often vanish’,” that’s as much of an answer as I think we’ve been given.
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That’s interesting. My immediate reaction was that Dlanor might’ve prevented reasoning to stop Gaap specifically, since she’s not an actual character in the mystery or any of that jazz. But then I remembered that Ronove and Virgilia were right there with her, and already knew what she was getting at, so I suppose that rules that out. Interesting info though, maybe you should put it on Gaap’s character discussion topic too, for anyone curious about her.
EP7 Yasu’s Past
Yasu: “I want to become a witch. I want to become Beato.”
Gaap: “But I am already Beatrice.”
Yasu: “You’ll still be a witch and my friend. I’m modifying the world so that Beato is me.”
Gaap: [color=blue]“You were talking about the seals blocking Kanon, the ones on the windows of the cousins’ room, right? Then what about the windows on the next room over? All you’ve done is shown that the rescue would have been impossible for Kanon. There’s still a chance for the humans in the next room over…!”[/color]
…
Gaap is about to be removed by the Siesters for not having a stamped invitation
Gaap: “Wait there Dlanor respond to my blue truth”
Dlanor: “If you want the opinion of the Great Court of heaven, please fill out an application in accordance with court PROCEDURES”
…
Dlanor: “Multiple submissions are forbidden, so the blue truth you just spoke will be unusable during this wedding ceremony…”
I think the answer would be as Beatrice realized, the witch’s side is supposed to be giving the questions not answering them.
This part is fishy to me. Shanon escapes the next room over, then proceeds to rescue Battler as Kanon. But her method of escape was still the window, which means the blue truth Gaap spoke did end up being used during the wedding ceremony. Yeah, Erika agrees to remove the seal, but Beato still needed it to be removed.
As for this part, Beato still needed to solve the logic error before presenting her own mystery. Although Lambdadelta was the one it was presented to, she was still required to have solved it.
Edit: I just thought of another question, though this one’s up for interpretation more than anything else: Did Erika arrive at the truth at the end of episode 6? After she loses the dual with Beato, her last measure of resistance is to introduce herself as the [color=red]detective and the 18th human.[/color] Why would she say that if she had no doubts on the number of people on the island? She asked this after realising that multiple truths can exist in tandem and has a realisation about the nature of the world. I think she said that to clarify, at the very end, if what she’d just come to realise was the truth, and Battler and Beato confirmed it.
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