Umineko - Kinzo Ushiromiya Character Discussion (Full Series Spoilers)

07th Discussion
#29

Huh, I actually forget about that part in the red guts scene.

Yeah, but you could argue Kinzo was much, much, much more selfish in his motives-and if even makes you think if he really loved Bice that much considering she could’ve died by him putting the idea of a massacre into the soldiers heads.
He really didn’t think that one through
Edit: But I do suppose that it could be seen as a sort of gamble to get rid of all the other competitors for the gold. After all, I sincerely doubt Kinzo could take out an entire base full of highly trained soldiers.

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#30

I think it’s questionable whether Kinzo intended to cause the massacre. Remember, we have a precedent for this sort of guilt assignment in that Battler was responsible for the 1984 massacre because he came back and the massacre would not have occurred if he either stayed away or kept coming to family conferences even during his fight with his dad. Similarly, the first massacre might not have occurred if, for example, Kinzo wasn’t there to be a translator and thus accelerate the break-down in negotiations that lead to the slaughter.

Also, look at the exact text here. Kinzo is being called a coward for even saying anything about stealing the Itallians’ gold. But of all the many things you could say about a thief, cowardly isn’t the appropriate insult here if he was proposing murder and thievery out of the blue.

However, if it was something like he refused an order and accused the thug-commander of wanting to do that, thus putting it in his head, and his fellow soldiers were scandalized at the idea because they didn’t yet realize what a vile piece of work that guy was, things seem to line up with that scenario.

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#31

Plus wouldn’t Bice have realised that Kinzo caused the massacre?

#32

Kinzo was a shitty person. He forced himself on his own daughter (whom he isolated from the rest of the world) and got her pregnant. The lone fact that he raped someone makes him a scum in my eyes.

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#33

Not really. Especially since all the soldiers started shooting on their own. There’s really no way to prove he put the idea into the others soldiers heads.

#34

Yeah I’m specifically referring to the final confrontation between kinzo and that japanese army general. However we don’t even know if that even happened so there’s a bit of a deadlock there.

#35

We don’t know how earnestly Bice reciprocated his feelings, so it may have not mattered to Kinzo how she felt.

#36

Assuming everything there is true…

I find it funny how Genji basically acts as an enabler to every single bad or unhealthy thing Kinzo has ever done, as well as Sayo’s idea of committing mass murder-suicide, and yet…
The one time he actually tries to take matters into his own hands (by having KInzo think that Lion is dead)…

Is also the one time it really couldn’t matter less based on how he acts when Lion is alive.

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#37

Yeah it’s messed up how Nanjo and Kumasawa were perfectly ok with Kuwadorian Beatrice being locked up for her whole life too.

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#38

I wouldn’t really say they were okay with it, but they certainly enabled Kinzo.

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#39

Don’t forget Beatrice 2 died young. Home-schooling a child from birth to young adult-hood isn’t over the line in terms of eccentric rich person practices.

But it does seem kind of off to me that we get a suggestion of Beatrice 2 as a recent mother from Bern but there were no clues to that at all in the Rosa / Beatrice 2 Kuwadorian scene. I wonder if it’s supposed to be a fake-out and Bern is playing Erika-style truth games, or maybe something that changed during the writing process between when Ep 3 and Ep 7 were published.

#40

Or it could be that Beatrice 2 didn’t recognize Sayo as her own. Which would sadly…make sense. Also, we don’t even know if Beatrice 2 knew her own child was alive, as Kinzo gave Sayo away to Natsuhi.
Also, we don’t know how much time passed between the time she gave birth to the time she died.

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#41

Mmm, I may not be an expert in this since I don’t have the appropriate reproductive organs, but it seems kind of insane to me that a woman could go through an entire pregnancy and child birth and not really understand that there is a small person developing in her womb. It’s beyond crazy that Dr. Nanjo or Kumasawa (the presumed midwife) wouldn’t clue her in to what is going on during the inevitable medical examinations to try to stave off another death-during-child-birth situation. I would not describe a failure to recognize Sayo as her child from Beatrice 2 as ‘making sense’ from my point of view.

I guess it could be that Kinzo had already removed Sayo from Kuwadorian before Rosa stumbled in and that whole situation happened, I would have to go back and check the timing again.

#42

I think you might be misunderstanding something. By saying that Beatrice 2 did not recognize Sayo as her own, is that she rejected the idea that Sayo was her baby. She didn’t want to believe that such an abomination could possibly be her kid. Also the manga does show Kinzo holding the newborn Sayo so I presume she was more or less handed off almost immediately.

I really doubt that Rosa visited Beatrice 2 just after she gave birth. Kinzo gave Sayo to Natsuhi almost immediately so I’d say Rosa would have to visit Beatrice 2 like a month or two after she gave birth.

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#43

Why would she consider Sayo an abomination though?

#44

Because she was a result of her father raping her. Even though she still loves Kinzo and was probably confused about his actions towards her, I can imagine that Sayo reminded her of what happened.

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#45

I see. From my perspective, Beatrice 2 wasn’t really aware of things and how the world worked. I think the idea that Sayo was her own child was something she was unable to grasp. Furthermore, I don’t think Beatrice 2 even knew what incest was or that it was wrong. Heck, she didn’t even know what a zoo was, I highly doubt she was informed about incest.

So I don’t see a reason for her to consider Sayo an abomination.

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#46

Perhaps an abomination is a wrong word to use. Maybe uncomfortable would be better.
Besides as I said earlier, Beatrice 2 probably didn’t even know Sayo was alive as Kinzo could’ve given her away to Natsuhi later. Or your idea of Beatrice 2 being unable to grasp the idea that Sayo was her child also makes sense considering her shelteredness.

#47

I’ve always been interested in the topic of Beatrice II. I wonder if a new, general Beatrice II thread would be more appropriate to discuss the particulars of her relationship with Sayo?

To bring this back around to Kinzo, Kinzo tried desperately to condition Beatrice II around his fantasies. He groomed her to be a replacement for her mother which is an especially heinous act considering such things do occur in real life in real incestous abuse cases (though I doubt they have an occult flare). On some level, Kinzo knew his actions were wrong, but as she aged he truly believed he could mold her into Bice. I don’t really care about how “remorseful” he was because Kinzo knew how fucked up his actions were while undertaking them. This is evident from his flat out discomfort with Beatrice II calling him Father. He didn’t want to face the reality Bice was dead, so he indulged in a twisted fantasy of keeping Bice locked away as a fairy tale princess-- only he used his daughter as her body double. Interesting… It’s almost as if she were a vessel for Bice’s soul which draws more interesting parallels to Sayo’s magic and the nature of magic itself.

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#48

Which also has an interesting parallel with Battler in EP6 as he also wanted his Beatrice back, but unlike Kinzo or Sayo, he didn’t fully go down the rabbit hole of escapism and indulgence.

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