Umineko - Kinzo Ushiromiya Character Discussion (Full Series Spoilers)

07th Discussion
#41

Mmm, I may not be an expert in this since I don’t have the appropriate reproductive organs, but it seems kind of insane to me that a woman could go through an entire pregnancy and child birth and not really understand that there is a small person developing in her womb. It’s beyond crazy that Dr. Nanjo or Kumasawa (the presumed midwife) wouldn’t clue her in to what is going on during the inevitable medical examinations to try to stave off another death-during-child-birth situation. I would not describe a failure to recognize Sayo as her child from Beatrice 2 as ‘making sense’ from my point of view.

I guess it could be that Kinzo had already removed Sayo from Kuwadorian before Rosa stumbled in and that whole situation happened, I would have to go back and check the timing again.

#42

I think you might be misunderstanding something. By saying that Beatrice 2 did not recognize Sayo as her own, is that she rejected the idea that Sayo was her baby. She didn’t want to believe that such an abomination could possibly be her kid. Also the manga does show Kinzo holding the newborn Sayo so I presume she was more or less handed off almost immediately.

I really doubt that Rosa visited Beatrice 2 just after she gave birth. Kinzo gave Sayo to Natsuhi almost immediately so I’d say Rosa would have to visit Beatrice 2 like a month or two after she gave birth.

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#43

Why would she consider Sayo an abomination though?

#44

Because she was a result of her father raping her. Even though she still loves Kinzo and was probably confused about his actions towards her, I can imagine that Sayo reminded her of what happened.

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#45

I see. From my perspective, Beatrice 2 wasn’t really aware of things and how the world worked. I think the idea that Sayo was her own child was something she was unable to grasp. Furthermore, I don’t think Beatrice 2 even knew what incest was or that it was wrong. Heck, she didn’t even know what a zoo was, I highly doubt she was informed about incest.

So I don’t see a reason for her to consider Sayo an abomination.

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#46

Perhaps an abomination is a wrong word to use. Maybe uncomfortable would be better.
Besides as I said earlier, Beatrice 2 probably didn’t even know Sayo was alive as Kinzo could’ve given her away to Natsuhi later. Or your idea of Beatrice 2 being unable to grasp the idea that Sayo was her child also makes sense considering her shelteredness.

#47

I’ve always been interested in the topic of Beatrice II. I wonder if a new, general Beatrice II thread would be more appropriate to discuss the particulars of her relationship with Sayo?

To bring this back around to Kinzo, Kinzo tried desperately to condition Beatrice II around his fantasies. He groomed her to be a replacement for her mother which is an especially heinous act considering such things do occur in real life in real incestous abuse cases (though I doubt they have an occult flare). On some level, Kinzo knew his actions were wrong, but as she aged he truly believed he could mold her into Bice. I don’t really care about how “remorseful” he was because Kinzo knew how fucked up his actions were while undertaking them. This is evident from his flat out discomfort with Beatrice II calling him Father. He didn’t want to face the reality Bice was dead, so he indulged in a twisted fantasy of keeping Bice locked away as a fairy tale princess-- only he used his daughter as her body double. Interesting… It’s almost as if she were a vessel for Bice’s soul which draws more interesting parallels to Sayo’s magic and the nature of magic itself.

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#48

Which also has an interesting parallel with Battler in EP6 as he also wanted his Beatrice back, but unlike Kinzo or Sayo, he didn’t fully go down the rabbit hole of escapism and indulgence.

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#49

Will’s analysis in EP7 suggests that Kinzo would likely have treated her as a daughter in the beginning and only started going delusional as she grew up to resemble her mother. He quite possibly wavered between being sane (dad) and insane (Goldsmith) when dealing with her.

This is somewhat evidenced by Kinzo being remorseful at times as an old man, but then going 180 and being completely sure of his magical interpretation (Goldsmith persona). Did he do the crime? Yes. Was he fully aware and intent? Unclear (Yes if you don’t believe in insanity pleas or multiple personalities)

#51

Hmm, I never saw Goldsmith as like an actual different persona(lity), just Kinzo getting lost in his regrets and what he still can’t deny he wants - or, like in EP4, an obvious exaggeration thereof. I mean, it doesn’t seem like he had much else to do, other than lose himself in money affairs that carry no real meaning to him and abusing his adult children some more.

Come to think of it, it’s actually kind of tragic to think about how Kinzo probably didn’t have any pleasant moments in those last 18 years of his life. I wonder what would’ve happened if Genji and Nanjo hadn’t been by his side? Really wish we’d seen more of Kinzo’s relationship with them at some point, they’re kind of the only support he had (and as someone with continuous regrets of his caliber desperately needs).

I’ve always felt the “parallels” between Kinzo - Beatrice and Battler - Beatrice in EP6 to be more contrasts than parallels in the end. Whereas Kinzo forces a role on his daughter she can’t and doesn’t want to fulfill because they are different people, Battler rejects the idea of his ‘daughter’ replacing his lover and in the end comes to terms with the fact that they, with how the catbox/metaworld work, are the same person in the end. Like, aren’t the arcs total opposites in a way?

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#52

Don’t agree with the underlying concept Kinzo deserved to have support, but…

We have reason to believe that Kinzo treated his servants well. We can inference this from how Kanon speaks of him fondly during episode six which has really interesting implications regarding how Sayo saw him.

But, it’s been established in the story that Kinzo had a whismsicle side to him and the servants were often “accomplices” in his pranks against his family. So, I would imagine he wouldn’t have held up well without them. Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa were his enablers, so I wonder if there were others who worked for him who quit after figuring out who Beatrice II was and what he had done.

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#53

So, I have a theory about this that I want to throw out there. I really struggle with the idea that Genji, Kumasawa, and especially Dr. Nanjo would be so loyal to Kinzo if they had witnessed Beatrice 2 going through pregnancy of an incest child. Nanjo especially doesn’t seem like he could have been bribed in to silence on something like that.

It also hurts my brain to imagine that Genji would just see that sort of full on statutory rape and decide ‘whelp, better help the boss get a second go at it. Because I’m furniture.’ I mean, there’s loyalty and then there’s whatever that is supposed to be. It really doesn’t match his personality either in scenes as Genji, or even the ‘Ronove’ personality that might be his ‘dark side true self’ as imagined in the tales.

So let’s try this:

Kinzo believed that the soul of Beatrice 1 transferred into Beatrice 2 because of similarities in appearance and character, and also because Beatrice 1 died during childbirth. Because of that, when Beatrice 2 died, Kinzo or Genji had the idea that the miracle could be replicated by finding an orphan of an appropriately recent birth from Fukuin house.

I suspect this theory will be unpopular, but I’m not sure that there’s anything that can actually knock it down completely.

#54

I mean, isn’t that kind of what Genji didn’t do? For around 17 years he did “Lion” from Kinzo, and only ended up bringing them back together after watching Kinzo constantly feel regret and longing for release for that same amount of time.

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#55

On the contrary. Young Lion could have been delivered to Fukuin house… and simply left there. Or better yet transferred to another orphanage that doesn’t have any connection to the Ushiromiya family. Bringing Sayo/Lion back so early in those circumstances would be a senseless risk.

#56

I think that’s exactly what happened tbh. Iirc, the first time Sayo went to Rokkenjima was when she started working there-she basically lived at the Fukuin House until then. In Requiem, Sayo did say she missed her place at the Fukuin Housse.