Do you realize Agatha Christie literally wrote a story similar to this. And Then There Were None is one of her more famous novels, they even mention it in Umineko itself!
To a degree, yes, but we knew that already, Clair’s story is a “lie”. It’s Yasu’s life under a veil of illusions and love. Not only that, but there is another more hidden truth that she never intended to reveal: She never killed anyone and the Ushiromiya massacred each others.
This is actually a piece of evidence for supporting another theory of mine, I’ll bring it up for discussion when the Chiru teaparty reaches EP8
I can’t believe what’s happening in this thread. I can’t help but be curious, is it really that there is something to find in the story beyond Shkanontrice and that you guys have found it ? A small thing like what’s said about EP7 at the end of EP6 is something I always ponder a bit when I reread Umineko, but I never thought there could really be much to it.
Now, I have to say, I am a huge lover of Shkanontrice because it is in my opinion such a beautiful solution, that the story treats with such a beautiful care. But if it is possible to find something beyond that still fits the story and doesn’t harm the beauty of Shkanontrice as long as you want to believe in it, now that would make Umineko even more incredible, and may be I didn’t not even dare to think that Umineko could be even more incredible than it already is.
So I am very curious, and if there is such a thing, I can understand why you don’t want to hand it to people on a silver plate, il would ruin a bit the point of the thing. I think the only reason what you’re saying can irritate some people is exactly because of what @Ellixer said.
“I went over this in EP8 and between when they are in the witch’s tea room talking about the lack of a Reader, the start of Bern’s mystery and the first intermission, I did not see these lines. Are you perhaps referring to another scene?”
I am not sure, can I post images in this forum that have a copyright or will my account get deleted then? I am referring to these lines: “ittai dou nattendayo? Arashi no kotou satsujin jikentaa yo, oatsuraemuki ga sugiruze.” (I quoted from the original manga), that is translated as: “What the hell is happening ? A murder incident on an island isolated by a storm? That is too convenient.”
I meant this scene, the beginning of Bern’s game in Episode 8.
“I don’t know if the first part is required to understand this next part, but since the Halloween party in the beginning is pretty long I don’t know what I’m supposed to be looking for (especially if its a small detail). If the riddle with cheese has do with this next part I’m missing, then it’s even harder to grasp.”
Hmm, I’m going to rephrase this one, but then I want to leave it at that: Skip this issue with Episode 8 for the moment, look at the saving menu in Umineko and the cheese riddle in Episode 6. I think you’ll get the idea. Maybe I’ll add just this: “Even if you have the power to cut through the ocean…” (Beato, Episode 4). And that’s it. Nothing more from my side for now 
Shkanontrice is as an inherent part of the story. It is all included there afterall and even explicitly explained in Episode 8 manga. Therefore, it will always be a part of Umineko. To say otherwise would be like saying Episode 3 doesn’t exist or something.
Still though, I will repeat what I said before: There is a solution for the games that you have to figure out by yourself. It’s a game afterall. Umineko is REALLY awesome! 
@Narda - where are you?
Oh, like a headcanon!
I mean, go right ahead then! I assumed you guys were talking about something else. ^^
I’d like to hear it as well. I have no idea what they’re trying to get at. Shkanontrice was a solution that we have to worked out for ourselves. Episode 7 was tinted with magic and pretty easy if you’re already on the right track, but there are a great number of unanswered questions that were only revealed in the manga. Ryukishi have said that he did not include the full answer in the game, but felt that since it was several years after the game was finished and people had a chance to have a go at it already, he felt more comfortable giving a full answer in the manga. Other issues as far as I can tell have either been non-problems or have already been answered by others here.
I’d love to hear this answer, open it up to scrutiny and see if it can hold up to examination by a larger number of people, but I’m really not sure where they’re going with this. The whole time I’m sitting here wondering if Rosatrice is making a comeback or is there a more impressive alternate explanation at last, or one that works even with the manga around, but I’m really not seeing where they’re going with this.
I see, I went to check in the VN not the manga. Guess that part is different, but considered acceptable by R7
If the hint with the cheese riddle is the same as the coin riddle that immediately follows, then I got that one when I first read EP6
The coin riddle and the cheese riddle are certainly hints, but they are referring to completely different aspects of the story. Yes, the cheese riddle is obvious, so that you can even understand its meaning the first time you read the VN. But to try it out, you need to read it a second time.
The Umineko Chiru thee parties seem to generate fewer post compared to the previous thee parties. I always liked reading all theories and discussions on the forum and I’m saddened with low amount of them.
I wonder why this is the case.
It could be that many people have dropped of with Chiru, or maybe most of the discussions have moved to the Discord server. Another option could be that Chiru just doesn’t offer enough new material to theorize with. Does anyone have any idea?
There doesn’t seem to have been much discussion on it, but what does everyone think of the bad end?
I know a lot of people over on Kaza don’t bother with bad ends, or hate them in general, and I’m not sure how the population of Rokkenjima feels about them, but I think the Umineko bad end at the very least was a work of art. Not to say that the rest of Umineko wasn’t a work of art, but if forced to choose, I’d go so far as to say that the bad end was better than the good end. I think Erika got kind of phased out as the bad guy in a few ways near the end, but the bad end really reinforces the Battler VS Erika story, and it was nice to see Erika get more lines and have some time to reflect.
See, I had the opposite reaction to the Bad End. It felt to me as if the Bad End was just a short scolding delivered to the player for being so heartless as to pick it. Ange murders some of the only people who’ve ever helped her in cold blood, one of whom was very likely innocent, and it ends with Ange basically becoming Erika, who while very popular is more or less the perfect example of exactly the kind of person who wouldn’t “get” Umineko. Not to mention, the whole Bad End scenario in and of itself is non-canon, as Ange couldn’t have survived the fall from the roof…
I love Episode 8, but honestly I never would have considered the Bad End to be one of its highlights. To me, it kind of just felt like Ryukishi’s last chide towards the more unpleasant members of his fanbase.
Is there sufficient evidence to say that the endings were exclusive in the first place or that the Bad End was a Bad End?
I don’t think Ryushiki is so arrogant as to tote the idea that the readers who disagree with the viewpoint he presents are “unpleasant members of his fanbase.” Quite the opposite, I think he often looks back at his own work and wonders aloud as to whether he’s right at all, which is something I can really respect. I think the bad end addresses that - it’s saying that there’s no “wrong” option. The opinions of people, and even the nature of reality, are infinitely flexible and subjective. Of course, Battler, Beato, and everyone else were trying to push Ange towards one particular option, but that’s because that option would lead to a brighter future for her. And like that, I think the bad end helped me at least, appreciate the good end more as well, as bad ends usually do.
That’s pretty much what I was just getting at. I’m not entirely convinced that the bad end was meant to be a “bad end”, but rather, just an “alternate end.” I still call it a bad end because like @mrdent said, it wasn’t canon.
Of course, it not being canon doesn’t mean it’s not worth looking at, and considering an end of some sort on it’s own.
I do believe Ryukishi massively second-guesses himself, but much of Episode 8 is indeed about Umineko itself, and the relationship between the work, the creator, and the fanbase. Don’t get me wrong, of course I love and respect the man, but Erika and the Goats are very clearly meant to be representative of parts of the fanbase. While Ryukishi has always had a close relationship with his fans, due to this close relationship he’s also witnessed a lot of terrible, bullying responses from readers and netizens- To the point where he almost stopped writing Higurashi after Ep6 due to 2chan’s response to it. The way the public responds to the Rokkenjima massacre is very clearly meant to parallel the fanbase, and I think Erika’s reactions to the Love Duel in Ep6 also establish a parallel with many of the readers at that time.
You can totally argue that the Trick End (since we are perhaps leaving the Bad End term out of it) acknowledges that there’s no wrong option, but… I disagree. The Trick End is portrayed as the wrong option, as in, the events that occur in it are wrong to begin with. The setting is wrong, being in a situation that’s been established as impossible, Ange’s actions are wrong, both immoral and irrational, and she’s being equated to a character who’s downfall was being so sure of herself despite being completely wrong.
I won’t use the term Bad End in fairness, but I personally do think of it as a bad end. In the Trick End, Ange refuses to learn anything from her experiences, and comes to the conclusion that “the truth isn’t worth anything.” So, she ends up living in a scenario in which there is no truth, sliding into complete unreality as shown by Erika physically manifesting with her on the boat. I don’t think that the Trick End is badly written at all, but I do think it is a “Bad End” in that it isn’t a happy ending, and I do think it is meant to comment on the kind of player who would pick Trick over Magic.
She presented the circumstantial evidence and her conclusions, what was the irrational part of it?
That’s one way to interpret it, but you could also see it as picking “truth” over magic.
[color=red]Magic, in the truest sense of the word, does not exist.[/color] This is undenaiable within Umineko’s story. I don’t think anyone would say that it’s fair to call people “unpleasant” just because they value truth over finding comfort in cheap parlour tricks. What Beato does at the end [color=red]Is nothing more than a parlour trick.[/color] Refusing to acknowledge it as “magic”, I would argue, isn’t the choice someone who thinks
would make.
As a content creator, I’m sure Ryushiki wouldn’t equate people who respectfully disagree with his opinion to people who are just being assholes.
Although I usually hate strong words like “wrong”, since I think there are very few objective facts in the world, even I agree with your repeated use of the word wrong to describe the bad end. And that’s what I liked so much about it. It, literally, just felt so wrong.
Both of these are subjective concepts. I would think it’s fair to argue that she acted in self-defense based on proper reasoning. Yes,
this is a fair point, and that part is what changes the scene into something that felt truly “wrong.”
Of course, these are really just two different interpretations, and even I don’t completely agree with some of the arguments I’ve presented, but I can at least see why people would think that way, and I don’t think it’s an unfair position. For me, the difference between choosing trick or magic isn’t even really indicative of whether you value truth, or anything like that, since it’s made so obvious which choice Ange is supposed to choose, and if you interpret “magic” as “anything that could be interpreted as magic”, like they do at several points in the story, then based on which interpretation of the word “magic” you use, both answers could be technically correct. I basically just think choosing “trick” makes you …"that guy". Nobody likes that guy.
Of course it’s a parlor trick, nobody is denying that. But still, picking Trick here is framed as a “bad” choice. It’s meant to mirror Erika vs Maria in Episode 6- Again, producing candy from the cup while Maria’s eyes were closed wasn’t true magic, it was a parlor trick. But Erika choosing to go ahead and reveal the truth just for the sake of it was an ignorant and cruel thing to do. Sure, Erika made the truth known, but that was totally unnecessary because everyone, even Maria, kind of already knew. Choosing to reveal Beatrice’s harmless parlor trick as such was unnecessary, everyone was in on it together, and there wasn’t anything to gain from it besides the smug satisfaction of having seen through it, which isn’t an impressive feat to begin with. (Like you said later, it makes you into that guy, somebody who’s pretty unpleasant, if you ask me.)
But that isn’t who the Trick Ending is meant for. Sure, choosing between “Magic” and “Trick” is symbolic of the question of whether “magic” exists, but, in context, it’s choosing between revealing the truth behind a bit of harmless play to others who already know the truth, just for the satisfaction of not doing so, or playing along. The context in which you choose the ending is not about whether a witch killed the Ushiromiyas or anything pressing or important, it’s over something small and simple, a situation where it would just be petty to expose the truth.
I’m in complete agreeance with you there, but I don’t really even think that makes the Trick End into anything that exceptional.
Again, I agree entirely, and that’s why I consider the Trick End to be a Bad End. But I don’t think it’s anything exceptional, and I definitely don’t think it’s nearly as important or good as the Magic End.
(As for whether or not Ange committing murder was justified- Sure you can say that her killing Amakusa was self defense, but she admits herself she had no reason to kill Kuwabata. There was no evidence one way or the other that Kuwabata was anything but innocent, but it was simplest for her to kill him anyways. This isn’t really related to what we’re discussing, though.)
((Reverie, I answered your question via PM.))
This might be a little off topic for this thread but can you elaborate about 2chan’s response to Tsumihoroboshi? Higurashi was complete before I even got into R07’s works so I know almost nothing about the fandom response to new arcs
Never heard of this one, got more info?
Edit: I see someone already asked, I hadn’t scroll down to the end, ah.