Antifantasy in Hinamizawa? (full spoilers for Higurashi and Umineko)

07th Discussion
#1

Hello everyone.

Let me start off by saying I know that a lot of folks believe that Higurashi and Umineko are, despite sharing some structure and characters, very different stories and that trying to apply an Umineko style anti-fantasy everything can be explained through mundane things mindset to Higurashi is a bit… misguided. To put it mildly. :sweating:

I do not share that view, but I don’t think that rehashing that argument would be productive or interesting. I just want to acknowledge these people before I get to the point of what I want to discuss.

Or you can call me an intellectual rapist. That’s fine too. :cackle: (How do we not have an Erika emoji?)

At the end of Matsuribayashi-hen, :ryukishi:Ryukishi’s challenge to the reader is to create a new Matsuribayashi story of their own. So is it possible to create one from an anti-fantasy perspective? That is, can we take the many mysteries of Hinamizawa that were explained through time loops and parasites and Hanyuu’s magic and that Queen Carrier stuff, and weave together answers that are a bit more in line with the rules of mystery?

I’m not sure, but I would honestly like to try. So, the first step is to set some ground rules. :push:

1: We will be treating Keichi as the detective. Scenes and events that he did not witness are to be treated like Kanon pulling out his magic light-sabre in Umineko. The fantasy is informative of the character and the kinds of things they COULD do, but not necessarily what they actually did.
1a: An exception is made for Akasaka being the detective of arc 4, and Shion is the detective in her answer arc.

2: Of course, since this is a replacement for arc 8 that one will be considered completely fantasy regardless of which characters are present, much like ep 8 of Umineko. We are not obligated to follow any of the reveals and plot-beats in that arc specifically while crafting theories. The only arcs we have to maintain continuity with are one through seven of the base game.

3: Without love, it cannot be seen. Care should be taken to monitor the whydunnit as well as the who and how. That whole ‘validate a scientific theory to avenge her adoptive father, but then not publish results in a science journal’ thing as Takano’s whydunnit is kind of jarring to me. We should try to avoid something like that. :thinsmile:

So, let’s start from there and assessing the scope of the problem: What unexplained mysteries do we need to answer to create a satisfying ‘anti-fantasy’ solution to Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni?

*Why was Hinamizawa destroyed?

*How was Rika able to predict the deaths of people in the village, and Akasaka’s wife? Or, if not a prediction, what was really going on here? :bern:

*Why does the Hinamizawa disaster not occur in the loops where Rika is killed?

*What happened to Satoshi?

*Who killed Tomitake and why?

*Why did Takano fake her death?

Please feel free to suggest answers and other questions.

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#2

Spoilers, I’d assume?

I never found this that jarring tbh, not sure why.

anyway might come back to this and try this out, sounds strangely hard

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#3

Well, let’s hit the big nasty one first. What possible why-dunnit is there for the Great Hinamizawa Disaster? What could make the Japanese government desperate enough to wipe out one of their own villages and cover the whole thing up as a volcanic gas disaster? And what can we point to as clues to support this?

Well, I have an idea. I hope it sounds less crazy than small bombs. :sweating:

In the original, anti-mystery solution this was connected to Hinamizawa’s ancient history, the quasi-racism against the village, and the reputation Hinamizawa had as the village where demons and humans live together. I think there is still something of that which we can use. But what would lead to people being called demons, if not the madness of a Hinamizawa syndrome style brain parasite?

Birth defects. People in Hinamizawa could be called demons because they didn’t necessarily look like a regular human. And what could cause an unusually high number of birth defects? Radiation. Ancient Hinamizawa could have been Japan’s version of Charles Xavier’s school for the Gifted, lol. So, you probably see where I’m going with this? Here’s my blue truth.


Hinamizawa Village is home to a significant Uranium deposit. The radiation from this uranium caused an abnormal number of birth defects in the village, and this lead to the reputation of the village for being a place where humans and demons live together. In the 1980s, the Japanese government realize this and stage the Great Hinamizawa Disaster in order to either seize uranium for a secret nuclear weapons program, and/or cut off access so that no one else can secretly create an atom bomb.

So, this is where I need feedback. Is this idea too crazy? I mean, it’s out there, but then again so is a submarine full of Itallian gold making it to a secret Japanese naval base.

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#4

Alright, let’s take a look at the next really big hurdle. The girl who saw the future. What can we think of to challenge a fearsome witch of the senate :bern: ?

Well, we already know the one secret at the heart of it. The only reliable prophecy of the future is the fulfillment of a certain determination. When Rika speaks of things that will happen, she is reporting what someone has decided will happen.

So, and I"m going from the Manga here, what are the exact words of prophecy we need to unravel?

In some years, I"ll be killed… It’s a very unpleasant thing, but it’s probably a thing that has already been decided upon. Whose plan would this be? I would like to know that as well.

On this day of Showa 54, the dam site manager will be killed and torn in to pieces.

On this day of June of Showa 55, Satoko’s parents will die. Maybe I should say it will be an accident. An unfortunate accident.

Again, on this day of the following year, the year 56, my parents will be killed.

Again, on this day of the following year, the year 57, Satoko’s mean aunt will have her head smashed and will die.

All the deaths that will happen from now on, one can think of them as convenient to those who control this village.

And then, on this day of June in Showa 58, or a few days later, I will be killed. They will stuff up my mouth with something, I’ll lose consciousness, and like that my life will come to an end.

I didn’t want to know these things, but against my will I ended up seeing them. Many, and many times over.

Ouch, this is a rough one. But there are a few things of note. First of all, Tomitake and Takano are not on the kill list, even though their reported deaths are big news. I don’t think a truly prescient Rika would include the possibly accidental deaths of Satoko’s parents but then skip over the two that were definitely murdered shortly before her own death.

But, at the heart of it, we need to explain three things. First, why was Rika running around with scissors snipping phone lines. Second, how does she know these things, and third why does she tell Akasaka.

Well, the people who run this village can only really refer to the heads of the three great houses, so what do they gain from these deaths? Are they pursuing a similar strategy to Beatrice, increasing fear of violent retribution in the witch’s darkness in order to solidify both faith and control in the village? That seems to make sense, and if we say that Rika, as a child of those great houses, was being dragged in to the planning meetings despite her age it would normally line up but still…

I just can’t see a conspiracy where a third of the conspirators intend to kill themselves, and the victims’ own very young child is in on it. THere were no clues suggesting Rika had huge enough problems with her parents to go along with this thing… Then again, maybe that’s why she reached out to Akasaka. She decided to defy the plan to try to save her parents and herself, and realized that by doing so she was adding herself to the hit list? That feels really clumsy to me though.

The witch of miracles is a formidable opponent.

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#5

Personally, Im not on the antifantasy side for either Higurashi or Umineko, since the evidence for hard 100% antifantasy in either stories is lacking.

To me both were written with a mix. That it was not all fantasy/spiritual/magical things, but also not all just physical things. Umineko demonstrates this much better than Higurashi - I see Higurashi as a kind of prototype story idea to the themes explored more in Umineko. So a strict division between the two can’t be as easily defined/cut in Higurashi as in Umineko.

That being said - I feel the antifantasy view lies in Takano. She held it throughout the story and until her end - she never wavered in her beliefs: that there is no Oyashiro sama deity, there is no curse - no spiritual miko or reincarnations - its just a small village with a bloody past caused by parasites. That the “deity” was made up for control. And she will proove that - and become Oyashiro sama in the process, showing that there never was an Oyashiro sama deity and it was all the work of human hand out of fear and control of this disease.

It can be said the scene where she saw Hanyuu in the shrine as the shrine deity could also be explained as simply Takano declaring her self as becoming the kami of Furude Jinja - something that isnt divorced from reality as say for example the time worlds. (Human beings are enshrined after they pass or for a great legacy they made, Takano’s research being the legacy) and in that sense become a “true” kami than the “made up” kami that was presently Oyashiro sama.

We know the 3 Great Houses had nothing to do with most of the Oyashiro sama murders (in the main story itself), but that also they werent afraid to get their hands bloody in some cases. So it is entirely possible they could have also manipulated, pulled strings, or had a hand in controlling the village with fear and knowledge of the virus. Mostly on their side to keep people from leaving the village and keep the village in tact. And to keep the integrety of Oyashiro sama despite knowing it is a made up kami and simply a virus( on the view of antifantasy here) whereas Takano wants to expose this and will carry out “curses” to do so more obviously.

The killings themselves can be explained by the virus, or perhaps the 3 Great Houses, at least the first few such as the dismemberment and then Satoko’s parents. The following we know were Takano, such as Rika’s parents.

But that leaves us to Rika’s prophecies. This is where a true antifantasy in Higurashi cant be fully achieved (whereas in contrast to Umineko, a full antifantasy can be interpreted/achieved in a sense )

She couldnt have known from the 3 Great Houses about the later deaths since we know especially Takano ordered the death of Rika’s parents as they got in the way of her research on the Hinamizawa syndrome. (And that death in particular goes against the houses ideals - why also would Oyashiro sama curse their own bloodline and descendants? It doesnt look good on the 3 Great Houses nor does them any favors. But it did for Takano)

Rikas prophecies, why she tells Akasaka, and her actions are all explained by her pasts in the old timelines /connections to Hanyuu and so on. These reasons are more spiritual/fantasy so they cannot fit in the antifantasy world.

But as we know most often dismissed her prophecies as childs rambling/the influence of growing up in the family of priests of Oyashiro sama (talking about curses and prophecies all the time - influencing a young Rika to act more mature or spiritual than she really is )

As we know as well, her prophecies can change quickly and are fragile when willed to change, and arent set in stone. Theyre not readings of a destiny, but of repeated events she had lived through and had knowledge of. We saw this how Keiichi easily broke all of her “prophecies” such as with the shop games. Keiichi’s attitude towards her there is a key to viewing her prophecies from an antifantasy viewpoint.

But again I dont really feel Higurashi can be 100% antifantasy so Im just referring back to some parts I can try to figure out a way to explain those difficult aspects - by how the other characters reacted to them.

In a completely antifantasy world, it would probably end as it did in Minagoroshi hen. To me that was the ultimate antifantasy world. Where no matter what faith they had or things they did, Takanos cold hard strong will, beliefs, and knowledge destroyed everything they worked for and built up. She won that world, and since she was on antifantasy view point, to me that is the antifantasy world. If there was no other timelines and just that one, Higurashi could be either interpretation 100% like Umineko can be interpreted (though personally I dont agree with that interpretations because of certain areas, but thats for another topic!) , but given the other timelines and events that give us more information/insight to the world, its not really possible 100% in my viewpoint.

(Perhaps that is why Bernkastel said there is no such thing as a real miracle. Even if its just 0.001% chance, a miracle can occur. But if it was a cold 100% certain world with no room for any other hope, a miracle in the sense of Bernkastels view couldnt occur. And in that sense it wasnt really a miracle, just reaching that incredibly low possibility…perhaps) :bern:

(I also hope this made some sense ;; there is so much to think about but I didnt want to get too long so I tried to summarize as best I could, but Im happy to clarify/talk about the points more!)

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#6

Mmm, I disagree with you about Takano in both directions.

First, I don’t think she is the primary example of anti-fantasy in Higurashi. Ooishi, for example, is also a constant voice of believing in a human culprit, that everything in the world can be explained by humans, etc. etc. Dr. Irie’s search for a scientific reason why people go crazy is also closer to anti-fantasy than anti-mystery, even if the results of that investigation are the highly fantastical brain parasites. I would call Hinamizawa syndrome the Higurashi version of ‘small bombs’. It’s not fantasy, but it’s not really putting forward a solution either. In that sense, Hinamizawa syndrome is even worse than small bombs, because you don’t need far-fetched sci-fi brain parasites to figure out that people who are stressed out and under pressure often do crazy things that they wouldn’t in normal circumstances.

Second, I don’t think her methods and techniques really line up with anti-fantasy on the whole either. Like, let’s use Erika as the template for ‘anti-fantasy and villainous about it’ and compare. Throwing out a thousand and one crazy theories in the form of her notebooks, then deciding ‘the truth is THAT one’ and spin-doctoring everything to fit it is kind of within Erika’s wheel-house though the craziness of the theories (brain parasites, ancient aliens, etc.) does not really line up with an Erika style anti-fantasy mindset, but then after that comes the need for others to approve the theory and tell her how right she is. She does all the research and gathers/fakes all the evidence, but then she never publishes. She is apparently content to know her theory has been accepted by who-ever this Tokyo cabal is, and she doesn’t actually evangelize her god-hood. It just fizzles out and she and her theories are never heard from again in the world of many years later. This is not consistent with an Erika style anti-fantasy character. If there is one thing I know about arrogant anti-theists it is that they have an all-consuming NEED to rub it in the face of believers that They. Were. Right.

But this is all drifting really hard from where I’m coming from and what I’m trying to get at. It’s a little hard to explain, but I’ll try.

Despite the novel format, it’s pretty spelled out that When they Cry, both in Higurashi and Umineko, are something that Ryukishi considers as games. It’s not quite like chess, but there is a desired flow of turns. Ryukishi puts out a mystery, the fans theorize, and Ryukishi incorporates that feedback into creating the next chapter and revealing things both ‘backwards’ in presenting new data for previous chapters and tweaking new story elements to either subvert or play in to the readers’ expectations that he has heard. For both series, the 8th episode in particular is a kind of reflection of all the answers and feedback Ryukishi has seen. Not so much an answer session as an expression of pulling together all the thoughts and ideas he got from the fanbase.

So, when I look at Matsuribayashi hen and all the crazy reveals in there, I feel like it’s we the readers as detectives getting a bad grade on the test. Suddenly there were brain parasites. Suddenly magical horned-girl is walking around with people. Suddenly Takano has syringes of super parasite drugs capable of making people claw their own throats out even though that was pretty explicitly denied in Onikakushi. If we the readers were supposed to follow along with the detectives and come up with solutions to the mysteries, this is Ryukishi saying we pretty much failed to come up with anything even close. He doesn’t scold, or rant angrily about it or anything, he just presents a tale steeped in fantasy and is perfectly happy to just leave that last confession out of the very end of ‘And Then There Were None’. Let the readers keep believing in U.N.Owen. They haven’t earned anything better.

I can understand that sort of mindset, because I have seen it in action elsewhere. I played an RPG once where a big part of the story was the characters trying to figure out the mysteries of what’s really going on while they survive various perils. At the end of the case, I gave my theories and reasoning for what’s going on. The GM smiled, nodded and said ‘That’s some pretty clever thinking.’ but refused to actually confirm the truth of the story or how right/wrong I was. He said ‘that’s how life is, you don’t always get answers’ and moved on to the next quest because that sort of doubt and uncertainty was part of his artistic vision for the story of the game.

So I get it. We played at being detective, we lost, and it’s on to the next game. Matsuribayashi-hen wrapped up the character arcs in an emotionally satisfying and conclusive way, a few side stories to keep the paychecks coming in because Ryukishi needs to eat just like everyone else, and then off to Rokkenjima where some things were explained a bit more in the hopes of making a more interesting game.

And yet…

And yet my pride as a reader is not satisfied. I want to go back and try again. Like a stubborn gamer facing a Souls boss over and over again, I want to piece together the clues that create a new Matsuribayashi-hen. So I’m rethinking it from the question arcs and most of the answer arcs, but the big reveals from Ep 8 are discarded. It is forbidden for the mystery to be solved with clues that are not presented. There is an answer here. There were clues in the text. We missed it before, but I intend to find it this time. And thus, this thread was born.

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#7

I love your reply!

That’s true - I think to me in that sense she was the most impactful from Ooishi or Dr. Irie - after all she was manipulating them both in a sense. In other words Ooishi couldn’t solve who was behind the murders (Takano) and she had Dr. Irie under her finger. Though both of their characters were much more noble and reasonable than Takano, that is true.

I think I was also biased in thinking about it, since I was viewing from the perspective as Higurashi being a “game” between Lambdadelta, Featherine, and then as a few timelines went on, Bernkastel (her creation from Rika’s trauma/repeating timelines). In that sense I was figuring if Bernkastel and Featherine (Rika and Hanyuu) were anti-mystery, then that could make Lambdadelta (Takano) on the opposing end as anti-fantasy. But I think thanks to your reply, I can see that viewpoint is limiting on the Higurashi world and there are more characters and hints to consider beyond Takano.

I agree on that sense too, especially because we see that Satoko tended to show “Symptoms” of the Hinamizawa Syndrome the worst too, but she also had the most stress, pressure, and outright abuse (and to an extent, Satoshi too). Then we also see Shion show severe “symptoms” but she also suffered a lot of trauma from the incident with Satoshi and Satoko. We can actually see Keiichi and Rena’s progressions from their stress as well. Only Rika and Mion seemed to not fall victim to the syndrome - Mion being a key here since while Rika has the “Queen Carrier” (which was disproven) theory behind her, Mion has no such special attribute that would make her immune to the syndrome. To be fair though,it was mentioned the Hinamizawa Syndrome symptoms heighten or activate with stress - so this could be a factor entangling the solution as well.

I don’t think Hinamizawa Syndrome as Takano imagined it exactly existed though, thinking about it. Since there were a lot of things disproven (Queen Carrier, no existence of the parasite itself found despite research). But then bloodwork and the medication from Rika’s blood was shown to somehow help Satoko. It’s interesting.

And that’s true about Takano too. But I can kind of see it as like she was just a very kind of lost and confused person clinging onto the only thing she knew or wanted to fight for that brought her light in her life - her Grandfather and his research. In that sense I guess it was like less of a ruthless anti-fantasy but more of a cold “I have to do this for Grandfather” approach and she was going to take any route to get it. We can’t really compare Erika to Takano though as Erika was made precisely as a piece to tear apart Beato’s mystery, but Takano herself was simply more fulfilling and going along with her Grandfather’s theories and her strong will to achieve it - which was more anti-fantasy in nature (not strictly in the sense of something logical, but in the sense that it denied spiritual/magical things, is what I meant to say ! ;; )

Yes, I agree with you there. Higurashi is more difficult in that sense because while Umineko was able to string the various worlds or games together, Higurashi didn’t exactly have any proper strings or connections tying them together between the other worlds or games (which makes a strict anti-fantasy solution difficult in comparison to Umineko, where one is possible to create that solution). To me for Matsuribayashi hen being the “solution” or “ending” is one that doesn’t satisfy the anti-fantasy - but does satisy an anti-mystery. As you said it wrapped up in a kind of satisfying way emotionally wise. I interpreted it later with the introduction of Umineko, that I saw that as a kind of way to say Bernkastel and Featherine “won” as anti-mystery, but Lambdadelta “lost” on the side of anti-fantasy. However, later on we can see for example in Saikoroshi hen there were some things to be wrapped up between Featherine and Bernkastel, or Hanyuu and Rika as well. (Which I believe there led to the end of “Frederica Bernkastel” and to just the birth of “Bernkastel” whom we all know in Umineko as being more cruel and less connection to Rika, hence the omission of the “Frederica”)

Yes, I also want to find a true answer, a satisfying anti-fantasy answer to Higurashi, and especially to Matsuribayashi hen - the final ending of the main arcs of Higurashi. The things that need to be solved are, what exactly is the illness (does it exist)? Where does Hanyuu come from? Did Takano inject parasitical drugs or was it a type of drug that made the lymph nodes itch and other symptoms to play along into her creation of the Hinamizawa Syndrome to make it “Real” despite it not existing? There’s a lot to consider here and I want to discuss more to find out. Personally I accepted the ending as anti-mystery as Bernkastel / Rika and Featherine / Hanyuu’s “win”. But now this discussion has me interested to open the story of Hinamizawa once more and find a different interpretation.

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#8

I think we’re on a similar page for a lot of things, but I want to emphasize that the goal isn’t to ‘solve’ Matsuribayashi, but rather to ‘replace’ it with a solution for the other seven chapters. So built in to the idea of an anti-fantasy solution is a couple premises. If your theory has witches performing magic, it’s not anti-fantasy, right? So are undetectable brain parasites, or drugs that make people rip out their own throats. It’s completely outside 1980s science and technology, so having them in that setting is a fantasy just like Kannon whipping out his light-sabre.

what exactly is the illness (does it exist)?

A solution where the illness exists and Hinamizawa syndrome is an actual thing greater than human stress factors and coincidence would definitely be anti-mystery in my eyes. I could maybe see ‘Takano believed in the disease based on grandpa’s crazy theories and forced evidence to fit that narrative, then convinced other people’ as having a place in anti-fantasy, but the Hinamizawa syndrome itself is definitely a piece for the ‘antie-mystery’ side of the board.

Where does Hanyuu come from?

In an anti-fantasy account, Hanyu would be either Rika’s imaginary friend, or perhaps we could say an alternate personality like the many voices inside Sayo’s head, but that one is pushing at the margins. A firmer anti-fantasy answer has her as an imaginary friend.

Did Takano inject parasitical drugs or was it a type of drug that made the lymph nodes itch and other symptoms to play along into her creation of the Hinamizawa Syndrome to make it “Real” despite it not existing?

The idea of Takano or someone else faking it so that it looks like someone died of a Hinamizawa syndrome is certainly anti-fantasy, but using a drug like that to do so would be anti-mystery. A ‘purer’ anti-fantasy solution might be something like:

Tomitake was tortured by having his fingernails ripped out by some device similar to the one used for Shion’s atonement to the Sonozaki family, then he was murdered by having his throat torn out. Afterwards, the killer arranged the corpse in such a way that it might look like Tomitake ripped his own throat out to a superstitious person, or someone who believed in Hinamizawa syndrome might think that he had succumbed to that disease.

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#9

So, Rika’s prophecy is still giving me trouble here, but maybe something else will come to mind if look at some of the other mysteries to tie the theorizing together.

Why does the GHD not occur in the Sonozaki rampage arcs?

Well, the presented Fantasy solution would have us believe that with Rika killed, Takano couldn’t justify wiping out the village under the emergency manual scenario. I think there’s something to the idea that Shion’s victims being removed from play prevented the GHD, but just because Rika is a major character doesn’t mean she is the only one that matters here. In addition to Rika and Satoko, Shion also kills her grandmother Sonozaki Oryo and Kimiyoshi Kiichiro.

So, I feel like those deaths may be the important ones here. If we suppose that in the anti-fantasy version of events, the motive is to get at a uranium deposit, then the GHD might be the ‘bad end’ of a complete negotiation break-down behind the scenes. Without the heads of houses to negotiate with, the negotiations are put on hold while the secret conspirators figure out who they need to talk to for the negotiations.

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