Comparing 07th Expansion novels to classical and/or prolific Western/Eastern novels

07th Discussion
#1

Its been a while since I’ve posted here, hasn’t it? Anyway, why don’t I cut to the chase. I’m fairly sure that most fans of Ryukishi are readers and have at least read something could inspire comparisons with 07thexpansion novels.
So basically, my question is this: What have you read (preferably classical or high profile novel since Ryukishi seems to like making references go those kinds to works) that has similar elements to 07thexpansion novels story-wise, character-wise, or thematic-wise? Elaboration is appreciated.

I think this would be quite an interesting discussion. Also, please tag your spoilers if you have to invoke them.

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Introduce Yourself!
#2

I would contribute to this post, but all of my taste in literature is trashy as hell, so I won’t bother.

Still, I’d love to see what kind of discussion springs up here~

#3

There’s a lot in common regarding the postmodernist and metafictional elements in Umineko and Agota Kristof’s The Notebook, The Proof, and The Third Lie.

Additionally, much of the fantasy elements in Umineko’s Question Arcs are an Otaku sendoff to Aligeri’s Inferno.

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#4

I’d like to add to this by starting with comparisons I found.

Umineko (at least, in the Question Arcs) is basically a retelling of And Then There Were None, with the Epitaph making a reference to the poem at the beginning of And Then There Were None.
One could also argue that plot points from And Then There Were None are also used. After all, Umineko does have its red herrings.
And to go off of @MrDent, I actually think that Umineko’s Answer Arcs are where Aligeri’s Inferno really comes into play. One could argue that (End of the Golden Witch spoilers) when Battler acquires magic and uses it to revive Beatrice, it parallels Dante’s journey. Besides, I’ve always wondered if (more End of the Golden Witch spoilers) maybe the logic error is Battler’s equivalent of going through purgatory?

I’d also like to add that there are multiple yōkai in Higanbana. I know nothing about yōkai mythology, so I don’t know if any of the yōkai in Higanbana are actually based off of some sort of classical mythos, or if they are just something Ryukishi thought up on his own.
With that, I’ve also always wondered if (Minagoroshi-hen spoilers) Hanyuu is perhaps a reference to some sort of yōkai mythology.

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#5

I guess I’ll add my perspective. To me, Kinzo is basically Jay Gatsby from The Great Gatsby.
Think about it, (spoiling Kinzo’s backstory) both men fought in world destroying wars and are dangerously infatuated with a single woman, both men are insanely rich and made their wealth of dark money, both men are constantly mythologized by others in the sense that people create their own tale of who they think that man might be, (Gatsby was a murderer or a spy or the cousin of Kaiser Wilhelm, Kinzo is either a crazily awesome old man, a doting Grandfather, a completely drunken bastard, or a pitiful old dude).
And both men also seem to even create their own delusions of who they think they are vs the reality of the situation. The only difference is that Gatsby wasn’t completely off his rocker and that Kinzo’s Nick was useless and even gayer.
Also, I think Beatrice might share more than a few similarities with Daisy, but I can’t think of them now.

I also think that Umineko (and maybe Higurashi/Higanbana) could also be compared with Moby Dick in how they both share the themes of how vengeance turns you into a monster, and the dangers of being unable to understand your enemy.

What about Rose Guns Days? Anybody have any thoughts on that?
Edit: I’ve often heard that many people characterize Rose Guns Days as a critical look at Japanese culture, society, and politics, but as I hadn’t read it myself, I wonder how true this statement is.

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#6

Yo @U4ea!

Just a quick request!

Could you please edit these parts of your post

to reference which episode you’re talking about?

That would really help.

Thanks!

And @Pandora, could you put ([what you’re spoiling]) in front of your spoiler tags please?

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#7

Reviving this thread. I was rereading “A Streetcar named Desire,” and I noticed that a lot of its themes were rather similar to Umineko. Blanche in particular reminded me of a few select people…

Edit: Also, this is a bit off topic, but I’ve noticed people tend to make comparisons between Hideo Kojima and Ryukishi. i haven’t played a lot of Metal Gear, but what exactly is similar between them?

#8

Basically this.

#9

And Then There Were None is certainly the work from which Umineko takes most of its inspiration, with Ryukishi admitting it himself. I haven’t noticed any similarities with any other works, probably cause the thought never even crossed my mind, but something that I find interesting is the Umineko and And Then There Were None parallels. I read the novel some time ago and I don’t recall many of them, but if you read the novel, you can find quite some clues about Umineko in the novel’s answers to its mystery, which is, to me, fascinating, how these two works intertwine in this manner.

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#10

I was also thinking that in a meta sense, Umineko was also similar to the Great Gatsby. When the Great Gatsby came out, it was more derided than it was praised, with people lamenting Fitzgerald’s writing talent as they believed it had come to a waste with this book-sort of like how a quite a bit of people today think Ryukishi is a “hack” after writing Umineko. The Great Gatsby also was quite controversial when it debuted-with many of its reviews being mixed.

However around the 50s/60s and foreward people began to revist the Great Gatsby and now consider it to be one of the great American novels, and I think there’s a bit of a turnaround regarding Umineko as well-if we consider the influx of new fans and people like SG2tiger on Tumblr to be reconsidering their opinions of Umineko and becoming more positive.

#11

Haven’t been here in a long time, but this topic is worth writing about.

The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco.
I can’t even properly begin to explain how many similarities exists between Umineko and that novel. Oddly enough I have no idea if it’s an actual influence or if it’s all just coincidential.
I’m quite surprised no one seems to have mentioned it even, tho I may not have caught that part.

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#12

I was wondering when you were gonna come back. Maybe I’ll check that novel out during the summer. Is it translated?

#13

Yes it’s translated in a lot of languages.
While there are less direct parallels, I’d also say that Foucault’s Pendulum by the same author may be worth reading. In general Umberto Eco is kinda the “master” of “how people build up flawed reasoning” and in a way, how intelligence can be a double-edged blade. He’s also a semiologist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

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#14

You know, I’ve always been curious about the parallels between Umineko and Dante’s Divine Comedy. I haven’t read the work yet, though I’ve seen some excerpts here and there on the internet and it truly seems very enthralling, so if anybody here has read it, what parallels are there between Umineko and it? I don’t mean such obvious ones, such as the naming of Umineko characters after The Divine Comedy’s characters, but I’m wondering whether there are plot points, ideas, and series of events in The Divine Comedy that parallel themselves in Umineko?

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#15

Heh I’ve read that so long ago that I honestly barely remember it.

If my memory works well at all tho, I remember making more parallels between Purgatorio part and Umineko than the other two. But really for the most part it’s like faux symbolism I suppose.

(Potential Chiru spoiler)

There are some implications that Rokkenjima itself is Purgatory tho, or at least that interpretation can be made from it.The other thing I guess is that while Beatrice is an actual person, in the Divine Comedy she’s more like an embodiment of a certain state of mind to reach, like a sort of … religious enlightment I guess. Or rather the act of reaching her is kinda the act of reaching that enlightment in a sense, as she can only be attained once reaching heaven. I suppose we could make a sort of parallel that Beatrice, or at least meta-Beatrice, is a being who reaching her parallels to reaching a certain form of enlightment. I dunno if thatd be a stretch in a way or not…

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#16

Hmm, that is definitely very ineteresting and I feel we can make something like that work like this: At the beginning of episode 6, after Battler reaches the truth and Chick Beatrice is born, Featherine and Ange liken her being born as Battler comprehending the rules of the game, thus understanding the exsitence of Beato herself, who is all the intricacies of the game and since he enlightened himself by doing that, he ‘reached’ Beatrice’s state and perspective in a way and got Beatrice, albeit not how he had last seen her. Well, that’s what I could make of it and it definitely is an interesting parallel, and everybody else can feel free to discuss their own interpretation of it.

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