Game/puzzle or story?

07th Discussion
#2

That’s really an interesting question, it is really difficult for me to choose but I will make the effort.

I can’t negate that the aspect of it being a game really attracts me, that’s what made me approach this series, but the fact that I’ve stayed with them as long as I’m now and I’m sure I’ll be is surely for the story. The game is really fun, you enjoy yourself a lot when Reading it, trying to solve the mistery, the epitaph, trying to guess who is Beatrice… But that ends, and what’s left is the story, at least from my point of view, so I’d choose story over game.

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#3

Sorry, but I honestly can’t give any other answer. The two are inseparable parts of what makes Umineko truly special to me. I don’t think I ever would have invested so much in the story if it didn’t constantly challenge me to try my hand at the game. I don’t think I would have ever fallen in love with the game if it wasn’t supported by such an amazing story.

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#4

Definitely story. I’m not a huge mystery fan (I don’t tend to actively avoid the genre), so the fact that there’s something behind the characters that makes me care about them and their interactions with one another even outside of any sort of mystery is what keeps me invested.

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#5

For Higurashi, definitely story. While I enjoy the mystery aspect of it for what it is, it’s simply supportive of the overall story and narrative in my mind.

But for Umineko, I can only give the same answer as @ctom42, mainly because to me those two “separate” aspects are one and the same to me. The reason Umineko works so incredibly well is because you have to put the puzzle pieces together on your own to get the full picture, that’s the whole point. The game aspect not only supports but rather actively defines the story aspect. Conversely, the game aspect is also actively defined by the story aspect; the reason it’s such an engaging mystery in the first place is because the underlying story is equally engaging.

I guess the main difference between Higurashi and Umineko in this regard is that in Higurashi, I enjoyed being caught off guard by plot twists. In Umineko, I enjoyed coming to realizations.

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#6

While I share @ctom42 opinion that both are equally important to what makes Umineko, well, Umineko, story is what made me start to obsess over it so much. The story made me want to read more mystery novels and explore the genre more. Maybe if I was big mystery buff before going into the game I would have liked the mystery aspect more.

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#7

I’m in it for the story first and foremost. I enjoy the puzzle elements, especially of Umineko, but while I do enjoy making my guesses, the real satisfaction for me is watching a large scale story fall into place, knowing it had a solid direction from the start. The small connections bring me more satisfaction than coming to the answer.

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#8

You put it much better than I did. You can’t understand the story if you don’t solve the mystery. Sure you don’t need to solve every locked room, but the story and game are too heavily intertwined to really separate. Umineko isn’t a story that you can just sit back and read. You need to think, to dissect, to challenge, to engage with it completely and come up with your own answers. When the story itself is the game and the game itself is a story they are inseparable.

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Uniqueness of Umineko in the Mystery Genre and VN Medium
#9

Unless you read the manga, I suppose.

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#10

…touché. I do feel like the manga being so explicit kinda undermines the point of the original being so vague in the first place.

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#11

Agreed. I think the point was for the manga to be the solutions for those who needed it, not as a first experience.

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#12

For Higurashi, I feel that the mystery is really what drove me during my first read - I couldn’t wait to see what information was revealed next, and how that would impact on my current theory. I think this was due to the way the novels seemed to switch between the “humans did it!” and “demons did it!” themes so often, I truly wasn’t sure which side would come to be true. However, what’s really stayed with me is the story. The mystery was engaging when solving it, but now that I know the answers I think I appreciate the story elements more, particularly the character development.

Umineko was a different barrel of mackrel: for it, the story is much more dependent on the “game”, and I find the two hard to separate. Like others have described above (especially @Karifean!) the two halves define each other, and I can’t think about the story without thinking about how it relates to the mystery. For it, I can’t come to a clear conclusion.

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#13

I’m in the same boat as everybody else in regards to Umineko. When I read Higurashi I was more interested in the story than the answer to the mystery, and I honestly don’t care too much for the puzzle/game portions.

With Umineko both are important pieces which hold it together. I feel like seeing it only as a puzzle helps get rid of a big part of what makes Umineko Umineko, and gets rid of some of the themes in the story. That said the puzzle is an integral part of the story, it’s almost as if it’s appropriate to say they’re both one in the same. If you had a gun pointed to my head though I’d say the story for sure.

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#14

While many do say that the game and story in Umineko are inseparable… Isn’t it the point of any decent story to challenge the reader? Challenge them to try and understand the characters through the story layed out to the reader. So I don’t quite get the concept of how Umineko is any different from other stories in that regard. In fact, I don’t quite get which part of Umineko is a “game”.

Arguably, the fact that it has rules (the red text is true) and a goal (figure out the mystery) is what makes it a “game” but don’t all stories have such components? The narrative and setting of a story can be seen as the rules, and the goal of understanding the story can be seen as, well, the goal. Sure, maybe umineko’s rules are a bit more concrete whereas things like narrative can be more open to interpretation, but when it all boils down to it, it seems essentially the same to me. I personally don’t even consider the rules of Umineko all that concrete either, as I don’t subscribe to the mindset of the red being absolute truth :stuck_out_tongue:

So that being said, I appreciate the story aspect of all series, much in the way I would appreciate a game: as an interaction between the story and the reader.

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#15

That’s a really good point. I dislike the implication I sometimes get from people that only bona-fide mysteries actually cause the reader to think, and all other stories are just passive entertainment.

Or that there’s no point in revisiting the story once the ‘catbox has been opened.’

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#16

Many many stories have a lot of symbolism, messages, and other things to think about. There is a lot of analysis that can be, and is done on works of all kinds. Mystery stories tend to be the ones that most actively encourage direct engagement because there is something specific the reader is challenged to figure out (who, how, why).

(Vauge Umineko spoilers) There are also many stories with open endings like Umineko. Where the author doesn’t answer everything and the reader is challenged to come to their own conclusions. But there are not many (if any) other mysteries that do this, that leave the answers to the puzzle up to the reader to find. This is what makes Umineko unique, the reader has to get the answer on their own, they cannot just wait for the detective to find it for them. And while it is a complete story without this answer, there is a lot of deeper meaning that can be gleamed from almost every scene once you figure it out. Reading Umineko while knowing the truth and while not knowing the truth are two completely different experiences. The heart of the story lies in the answer to the mystery. Solving the mystery is a key that unlocks a much deeper understanding of the entire grand tale and most of it’s characters.

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#17

That’s what makes Umineko so cool to talk about, (Vague Umineko Spoilers) since there are many things left up to interpretation and so many things that can be discussed. I love how Umineko is really unique in this sense, but it would be nice if more works of fiction began to do this, since I feel it builds more of an appreciation for it. Am I alone in thinking that giving the answer to the reader out right is wrong? In the mystery genre you should give them the answer, but I still feel interpretation is important.

There’s also a sense of satisfaction when you think about a subject over and over again and come to your own conclusions. I know every time I think about Umineko, (or Higurashi) and have a new thought or idea, it’s a really cool feeling.

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#18

Story, because like an idiot I utterly failed to dissect or challenge the game’s mysteries so except for (Umineko EP8) Bern’s Trial I really didn’t get my gears turning.

Umineko’s magical to me because of that, though. I can’t comprehend it, so I revere it. So damn engaging and immersive.

Goddamn. Agreed on everything.

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#19

I also, as some of you said, think that umineko itself its the combination of both, the game part and the story part.
Aside of that, ill choose story, because even if the game part its really appealing to me (And now I see every mystery as a game because of Umineko) the story is really good and complex. It wraps itself to the mystery in a alegant way in which the line between the two parts are blurred and seem the same but really if it wasnt for the story the mystery wont take place at all. Don forget the heart people.

Ir also might have helped in this decision the well writed characters of Ryukishi and the fact that in my first read of Umineko I wasnt really into mysteries so I was keeping up reading it for the story without keeping in mind the mystery until Erika showed up.

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#20

Higurashi definitely the story! I was so excited about the anime (my first exposure) that I kept clicking next wanting to know what happened next.

Umineko on the other hand, I would have to say both as well like people said they’re like one and the same. I loved reading theories and talking about it with other people back in the day.

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#21

Story definitively. The puzzles of Umineko are a lot less unique and spectacular then it’s story and characters.