Uniqueness of Umineko in the Mystery Genre and VN Medium

07th Discussion
#1

This topic will have spoilers for all of Umineko: Episodes One through Eight.

I’m a big fan of mysteries and visual novels, and Umineko has become one of my absolute favorites in both, primarily due to three things:

  1. Characters. Beatrice is absolutely fantastic; her malicious cackle, her theme songs, her deviousness, her magic, her locked rooms, her mocking of poor, useless Battler, her logic games, her Red Truth, her crazy smiles, her goals - all of it lends to a simply awesome character. Awesome, I suppose, in her wickedness and insanity. (There’s much more, of course, in Chiru; but I’m mainly referencing her presentation in Episodes One and Two.) Along with her is Battler, providing an excellent foil; then follows the whole cast, who support these two very well.

  2. Red Truth and Logic Games! My goodness, I love it. I love logic to death, and my absolute favorite segments were always the battles like in Episode Two: there’s a locked room; Battler makes a claim; Beatrice responds with Red Truth; he gives a rebuttal; she mocks him and smacks him down with more Red; “It’s useless. …It’s all useless!”; and so on.

  3. Setting. I love rain. Rainy nights are even better. Rainy nights with Red Truth and Logic Games are even better! And, of course, the music. The BGM is absolutely incredible. It supports the text a great deal, even to the point where I would only consider it good without it; the music can guide our emotional response to heighten a good reaction to a great one. It can also avoid the problems of disconnecting with the mood, which can happen with books a great deal.

These three things all combined to produce a masterpiece, in my opinion.

However, especially as I consider my own talents and what I want to produce, I’ve been thinking about what in Umineko can really be called unique and what is merely a good use of a genre element.

For example: locked room murders aren’t exactly unique, nor is being trapped on an island. And Then There Were None included the latter, while The Innocence of Father Brown included the former, back in the early 1900’s. They’re staples of the mystery genre.

Music supplementing the story isn’t unique, either; not even the kind of music (though the tracks in particular are fantastic and top of the line).

But what about Red Truth? There have been numerous other stories with Truth Languages (like The Inheritance Cycle, Earthsea series, Wittgenstein to a degree, truth serum, and so on), and Red Truth is just a more direct and logical use of the concept of “evidence” (a cigarette definitely existed at the scene of the crime!), but I can’t think of other mysteries that combine the two.

What about the meta element itself? Meta itself isn’t new, but applied to mystery certainly brought out a whole new kind of flavor to the work.

What about a witch? Plenty of those, but not many logic battles “disproving the existence of a witch.” That’s a very theme-heavy element, so I really wonder whether that’s something you can’t consider unique.

You’re likely thinking something along the lines of, “It’s all good uses of genre and medium elements! It’s the story and characters themselves that are unique!”

But the reason I wanted to bring this up is that another visual novel won’t be able to have “Red Truth” with witches and locked rooms without seeming like an obvious Umineko rip-off. Rip-offs in general infuriate some chaps because they’re giving an inferior, different version of something they’ve come to love. It’s not exactly copyright, since you can’t copyright a kind of story, but it does give a bad impression - like they’re writing fan fiction and trying to sell it.

Yet, if you look at the detective fiction genre, it’s not just OK to have the same kind of mystery set-up as other authors: it’s actually considered a good thing! Having the POV be a detective’s helper, for example, became heavily used.

The reason for that was: people loved it! They loved the “game of mystery” that the folks in the Detection Club wrote, and they wanted more. So out came Knox’s Decalogue, and soon enough tons of stories were being written and sold, precisely because of the similarity.

Umineko, however, is different in that regard. It’s a story not about the locked rooms and mystery alone, but more deeply about the characters. Most of Episode 4 onwards makes that very clear.

So, here are my parting questions for you all:

What parts of Umineko would you consider more unique to the point where you wouldn’t want to read any other novel that had those kinds of elements (unless it’s a super big twist or something)?

What parts of Umineko are more “good uses of genre and medium” that you do want to see more of?

Disclaimer: I’m not asking because I’m planning to write such a thing (though I’d have no aversion to doing so!), but because the thought came up while re-reading a few segments of Episode Two’s Red Truth battles and remembering how awesome that experience was.

I personally am not sure. I feel they can probably use almost all the same elements, but they very nature of the work has to be different; if it’s about “can you disprove my existence” battles again, I’d feel uncomfortable, like it was a fan fiction. But if they took it a wholly different route (maybe “can you clear your name” or something, with some other deep element), then I’d probably enjoy it. Also would need different characters, images, music, etc. You get the idea.

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#2

For starters, I would say that Red Truth would be something I would turn away from in other sources. It just feels like it belongs and having in other mysteries would just feel like it is, as you said:

That’s how I would feel about it. It’s not something that seems to become a staple in the genre, such as locked rooms and isolated settings, it is a creation of this work and this work alone which it allows itself to catch the attention of the reader. By adding this new mechanic in, a line of writing that can be seen as the truth, you allow for a different way to drop clues. I also find it is hard to have the Red Truth in other mysteries, and VN’s in general if you don’t have a reason for it. I’d find it pretty odd if I was playing Danganronpa and then Monokuma jsut started speaking in Red. The appeal of that game is that you get to explore on your own and deduct clues from your surroundings, you are mot limited to what information you receive, like in Umineko. I could see Monokuma coming up with a reason for it, by I would still call rip-off.

I’ve been talking about the VN genre, but what about novels? I don’t think one could pull off the Red Truth in a modern mystery novel today. The problem is with the setting. For me, mystery novels need to have that sense of reality that makes solving the author’s puzzle worth it. Having the Red truth in mystery novels might be an interesting way to get people to doubt some of the characters, or even the narrators, dialogue. (Murder of Roger Ackroyd Spoilers) I personally think it that The Murder of Roger Ackroyd would be a good chance to potentially use the Red, since it there is a reason to not trust the narrator. The only thing that would nag me would be the lack of reasoning behind having the red truth. Without witches, Red Truth shouldn’t exist.

Having a supernatural force in a mystery novel, such as witches, might seem like taboo to some mystery readers, even going against Knox’s decalogue, to a certain extent… The only way I could see getting around the supernatural meaning, is the have the Red text be a part of the author’s writing. Like maybe there is a foreword at the beginning of the novel that explains what the Red text means and how the readers can use it to their advantage. Just an idea, I know it might bring out the puzzle solver in some people having a defined set of rules for solving the mystery.

One aspect of Umineko that sticks out to me as good use of genre and medium is the end of EP 8 when Bernkastel challenges, not only Battler and Beatrice, but mainly the reader. Right before her mystery begins, she even addresses the reader asking them to try and figure it out themselves, leaving the real logic battle between her and you. It not only allowed the reader to go through everything they needed to solve the mystery themselves, it did it in an interactive and fun way that seems like a novel couldn’t do, at least that’s how I see it. (Possible Roger Ackroyd Spoilers) Again, Roger Ackroyd did a (kind of) simliar thing at the end of it’s novel where Poirot laid out all the clues of the novel out for the reader to see and then let them come to their own conclusion.

There a lot more aspects, I’m sure, but that moment was what stood out to me when I read this post and I wish that there was another game that did something like this. If such a thing exist, I would love know about it!

(Side note: Maybe off-topic, but I always thought a Danganronpa-style game with the Umineko setting and characters would be incredible)

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#3

I was thinking “Red Truth” as any “truth language” in the text. That won’t always mean supernatural; for example, if the villain challenges the MC to a logic game and the villain has a third neutral party confirm their statements (maybe even something like a computer or someone MC trusts), that could work as a “Red Truth” equivalent.

But you’re right: that’s already at the edges of believability. It’ll have to be done really, really well and in a very unique manner if it’s to work. Having actual witches again and a meta world would be too much, imo. Unless there’s some other massive set of changes that places everything under new light, maybe.

EDIT: I clicked Reply too soon, haha.

That’s precisely what the Detection Club and the Knox Decalogue was founded upon. Admitted, more in the other sense you mentioned, like with Danganronpa (with respect to evidence and testimonies):

That’s partly why I love those old detective mysteries, haha. They’re really fun to “play.”

One last comment:

I definitely think this makes Red Truth equivalents challenging, especially if you want to include it organically. If you just shoehorn it in, it’ll suck. There aren’t very many scenarios where it naturally develops into Red Truth-like stuff without shoehorning or supernatural elements. I know they exist - I’m thinking of one at the moment - but I’m not sure you could have very many works like it, unless you introduce some other elements, like you mentioned with it being part of the author’s writing or commentary.

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#4

I mean if we move away from the present and the past, there are a crazy amount of possibilities for something set in the future. Maybe there is an AI that runs the public security (imagine that it isn’t evil) and that if you ask it question it will try and tell you the truth to best of it’s abilities. There could be a sensor to help detect whether or not some one is telling the truth. Or maybe certain people are given nanobots ( not to be confused with small bombs ) that makes them tell the truth. I mean, it is kind of like a Devil’s Proof, if I wrote a mystery in a future setting with one of these aspects, you couldn’t really disprove it, since it the future hasn’t happened yet.

Always a good time with those ones, haha

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#5

I think one original aspect of Umineko’s mystery is the fact that at the very start they essentially give you the culprit, and you’re trying to prove that they DIDN’T do it. Usually, in a mystery, a crime happens and suddenly everyone looks suspicious, and you are attempting to figure out who the murderer is. However in Umineko they tell you “the witch is the culprit” and it is your job as a spectator (or as Battler) to prove this claim wrong, and find who the “actual” culprit it. So you don’t start at a level ground of “everyone is a suspect but who did it?” but more so “I do not agree with the information that I was given and that everyone else seems to agree upon” which in this case is the concept of the witch.

And of course, piggy-backing off of you guys, the supernatural versus the natural. Not so much in the sense that the supernatural isn’t presented in other mystery media but the way that the main character is a firm unbeliever (?) in the supernatural and that the battle isn’t necessarily between detective and unknown culprit, but between detective and his own perceptions of how the world works.

The way the supernatural is presented as a hard fact instead of merely implied or low-key feared adds up to the excitement as well. From a logical, secular point of view you root for Battler’s logic, but as the games go on you begin to even question yourself and your own beliefs in the supernatural.

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#6

I don’t have much to say about Umineko’s place in the mystery genre, but I certainly have some thoughts about why Umineko as a work is unique.

First, the use of audiovisual aspects to tell a multi-layered story. On my latest reread of the first four arcs, something that really struck me was how incoherent the story could be without the character images, overlays and sound effects. All these things are used to convey information to the reader, particularly about ‘where’ the current exchanges are taking place, which holds heavy symbolic value, while altogether tying everything into one coherent whole. Examples of what I’m talking about are Maria in her regular outfit or Maria is her Witch outfit, or Beatrice in her EP2 portrait (formal clothes) or original portrait (regal clothes). Even if every other exeternal element of the scene was the same (character voice, content of dialogue, et cetera) this little change conveys a dense amount of information to the reader, including guidelines about how to ‘read’ the scene. For example, EP2 guides the reader by using Beatrice’s outfit to tell if you should be using your ‘mystery eyes’ to understand the scene (in the case of her formal clothes) or your ‘fantasy eyes’ (in the case of her regal clothes). This even culminates in a particularly symbolic scene during the banquet of EP2 where the narration talks about Beatrice changing from her formal clothes into the regal dress.

Second, the thorough commitment to creating a cohesive fantasy narrative (which just so happens to have a coherent mystery narrative beneath and an expansive meta narrative above it). This is something I love about the series, which I feel is fairly unique. Really, Umineko is telling two or three different stories simultaneously while also critiquing and blending together all of them. This is what makes Umineko such a rewarding experience to revisit again and again. Before even diving into more traditionally deep aspects of a work such as subtext, theme, et cetera, Umineko in its basic construction has so many ways to ‘read’ a scene. This is something I wish more works of fiction could tap into, but it certainly takes an extremely skilled writer to execute properly. Just about every scene has a metaphorical readings (fantasy), literal readings (mystery), fictional readings (future), symbolic readings (meta), and probably even more depending on the perspective you bring to the table. And this all evoked simultaneously during a single scene such as Maria talking to Sakutarou. Having elements hold clear metaphorical value is nothing new to anime-esque works (which is something I enjoy), but here it’s clearly taken to a whole other level. And I think a shining piece of this is how even in the face of heavy deconstruction and self-awareness, the series never lets up on the fantasy narrative. It stays coherent right up until the end, which is a real treat no matter what elements you favour. I’d say part of how 07th accomplishes all of this is by leveraging what I like to think of as ‘structured ambiguity’. He created a setting where everything is latent and layered with meaning, which itself speaks volumes about the character Beatrice, being the creator of this gameboard and the origins of the ‘fantasy narrative’ we see.

Third, the use of the sound novel format was particularly well suited for a series where ‘truth is in flux’. The sound novel format gives enough guidance in the form of audiovisual ques such that it controls reader perception. Everyone reading will have a similar idea of what the characters look like, or distances between areas, etc. This is the ‘structure’ part. On the other side, the novel aspects give enough room for the reader to imagine what’s ‘actually going on’ and to build the world in their mind. This is the ‘ambiguity’ part. And altogether, when the story starts blending what’s real and asking the reader to questions these things, this ‘structured ambiguity’ gives them the freedom to really experience it. I think it allows for a really satisfying experience when you do start to understand how the setting functions and what the story is trying to convey, because the majority of the content has been fashioned in your mind anyways, and you really experience how malleable these truths really are. This itself is contrasted by a different format, such as the anime (which I recently watched with a boyfriend and actually was fairly enjoyable as an intro to the series). A heavily visual format such as anime cannot convey these ideas anywhere nearly as well, due in part, I believe, to how vision works. Vision is very ‘objective’. You identify an object and move on, with its image left in memory. This medium is not so well suited to the fluxuous setting of Rokkenjima where what you once thought was real actually was more fantastical then you realized. I think the visual format of the anime creates a lot more internal barriers that readers need to overcome to actually understand what’s happening. The sound novel format on the other hand is particularly well suited for this type of story.

I could probably come up with atleast one more point about the use of sound, but I’m gonna leave this here for now.

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#7

This makes me wonder how the light novel version of Umineko fares…maybe having to get it to a coherent state is part of why it’s taking so long for the light novels to be released.

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#8

Get out of my head! Seriously though, rain is so cathartic.

There is no single element that I wouldn’t want anything else to use. I mean, why the hell would I not want more stories to be like Umineko.

However as far as what made it so unique to me, well I think that has already been answered quite well in the Game or Story thread. What to me is most unique and masterful is Umineko’s structure. It’s a game and story so intricately intertwined as to be completely inseparable. But it doesn’t just stop there, there are layers upon layers of details, symbolism, messages, etc. It’s a story endlessly vast in scope and paradoxically incredibly focused on a simple tale of love and tragedy. Umineko is simultaneously a fantasy epic, an incredibly complex mystery, and a classical tragedy. It’s a meta-narrative on the genre and a down to earn tale about grieving and loss. It’s a commentary on truth and love and faith. It manages to weave all of these complex ideas, emotions, and messages together into a single coherent and beautiful tale.

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#9

I definitely loved it and would like to see more; I just worry that people will see something and think, “Ah; that’s just like Umineko. Ugh, what a rip-off. Can’t the author think of anything original?”

Example: there once was a person somewhat similar to myself who wrote a certain piece of fan fiction (for No Game No Life) that may have had locked rooms and a functional equivalent of Red Truth. While most people loved it, a few didn’t like it b/c of the Umineko reference. Admitted: it’s fan fiction, so it’s already breaking copyright law, lol. But people can get pretty angry if a work seems like it’s “copying” another.

#10

There are many ways a work can “copy” without upsetting fans. Intentional homages and obvious inspiration as usually viewed as good things. The trick for pulling this off is threefold. 1) Show respect for the work that is being “copied”, don’t heartlessly rip it off, don’t take things piecemeal and re-skin them. 2) Make it your own. It shouldn’t just be a rehash of an existing work, but something that builds off the ideas and concepts but tells it’s own story in it’s own way. The inspiration can be obvious but it shouldn’t be a duplicate. 3) Quality. The new work has to be good. It doesn’t have to surpass the one it was inspired by (but that certainly helps), but it has to be able to stand on it’s own two legs.

Umineko was heavily inspired by “And then there were none”. The entire setup of the individual boards is based on that classic tale. But Umineko added it’s own unique twist to the formula and made it it’s own. No one accuses Umineko of ripping off Agatha Christie, and it’s obvious how much respect Ryukishi has for her work, he even references her and the inspriational work direcly in Umineko.

edit:

Exactly this. And as you said those are not the only ways to view this story. It can be seen as a love story between Beato and Battler. A story of the tragedy of Yasu. A story of the struggle of Tohya and Ange (I just posted another thread discussing this). There are so many ways to look at Umineko and pretty much all of them feel intentional.

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#11

Since this topic is about uniqueness in the mystery genre AND VN medium… Have either of you read Symphonic Rain? It takes this rain setting and brings it to a whole new level, incorporating it into the story.

Replace logic games with rhythm games (which I have a very soft spot in my heart for), with equally interesting and mysterious characters, and you have yourselves a winner visual novel right there :stuck_out_tongue:

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#12

Heard of it, but I have a long backlog lol.

I’ve always only enjoyed rhythm games if the music is good. If they have original music and beats that’re legit, I’d like it too.

#13

All original music, most of which are vocal, and composed by Ritsuko Okazaki (who I also have a soft spot in my heart for, having grown up with some of her music). One of the characters is even voiced by Mai Nakahara, who would be known in this community for voicing Rena Ryuugu from Higurashi; one of the rare chances you get to hear her sing!

If you don’t mind my fanboying, go and take this a listen; I wouldn’t say she is a very good singer, but the emotion just pours out of her performance here

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#14

It’s on my list of things to read. I’m going through Inganock right now though.

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