Higanbana 2nd Night Ch. 7: Before the Spider Lilies Bloomed

[Aspirety]

General discussion topic for Chapter 7: Before the Spider Lilies Bloomed of Higanbana no Saku Yoru ni: The Second Night. Please tag any references to outside works with the [spoiler] tag, providing adequate context in parenthesis.
We take spoilers very seriously, and ignoring this rule could potentially result in a ban.

While this topic will serve as a general hub for discussion of the Chapter, if a conversation ends up flowing in a certain direction (eg. You start talking about the series as a whole rather than this particular Chapter), don’t be afraid to continue it in your own topic! Keep the “reply as linked topic” button beside each post in mind.

Higanbana Bookclub Podcast 4

What would you rate this chapter?

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[Aspirety]

I think others will have more to say about this chapter than me. A bit odd that Higanbana’s story never really tied into her association with suicide, but oh well. What I do really appreciate is how this chapter further characterises the role of the Youkai in the world of Higanbana.

But what I really liked the most is Shuuichi. What a neat character. In the end, he wasn’t too different from the other victims, and his bullying didn’t add much, but I certainly felt a connection to him. The way he immersed himself in his art to ease the pain of bullying, and how he lost all of that through bullying, was particularly tragic. Definitely a story tragic enough to inspire Higanbana to take up her role as a youkai. But I was really glad he got a happy ending; to me that’s what made this story memorable. While this story has focused almost exclusively on the ‘sanctuary’ known as school (the commentary on this was particularly amazing in this chapter), this chapter puts a different perspective on things by showing us that, with the right attitude, time can heal all wounds. Even though Shuuichi felt like he’d lost everything, with time he was able to focus on finding a new path forward, a new hope for his life through the piano, and the trauma of his past is all but a distant memory to him now. That’s really inspiring, a brief message to remind us that there’s always hope for those who live on.

This one left a bad taste in my mouth, just how easy it can be to make someone look evil by playing the victim.

And lastly…

“When the nighttime is darker, the Sun glows even brighter. It becomes so much more beautiful.”

I’ll leave my final thoughts on Higanbana in the general discussion.

[TsukiyoAlex]

This chapter was amazing. Congratulations Ryukishi, you finally were able to bring tears to my eyes, I was nearly thinking you would fail this time.

Higanbana’s story was quite interesting as it shows how she became the ruthless being she is, leading me to the conclusion that maybe the more pain, suffering and struggles you are forced to go through, the more ruthless you end up being, even if you cruelty isn’t wicked and is fairly applied that doesn’t change the fact that you are at times insensitive, cold-hearted and fearsome. Higanbana’s violent routine turned her into the overpowering youkai that was introduced to us in the first chapter.

Shuuichi also plays a big role at showing how emotions are necessary in life since they are what makes every day unique and meaningful, and that one can always feel emotions, be they good or bad, and how even when faced with adversities people should keep looking to the future and find a way to make their lives better.

That’s pretty much the most noticeable things I perceived and thought of during this chapter, and I really liked it, though I’m a bit disappointed on how it doesn’t give an origin to Higanbana’s doll and doesn’t show why she invites people to death, feeding off from suicidal spirits.

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@Aspirety

“When the nighttime is darker, the Sun glows even brighter. It becomes so much more beautiful.”

The link isn’t working for me, if you could check it and, if possible, fix it, I would be glad.

[Zosonte]

I liked this chapter and thought it was a fitting end to Higanbana. Finally, after so long, I was able to find the sympathy for Higanbana that Ryukishi wanted me to. From her past as an unfeeling youkai machine, learning the value of emotions and becoming the crazy, justice-dealing doll we all know today felt both satisfying and something I can relate to personally.

Shuuichi is a great character as well; I am glad to see him end this novel on a lighthearted and idealistic note that no one else accomplished.

@TsukiyoAlex

I’m a bit disappointed on how it doesn’t give an origin to Higanbana’s doll and doesn’t show why she invites people to death, feeding off from suicidal spirits.

I agree here. In a novel that allows you to speculate on many things, this is one thing I wanted to be concrete.

[Antra]

You know you’ve done something fucked up when I get start getting EP1 flashbacks.

I love how the scene talks about Shuuichi becoming a pianist while this song plays in the background. This series is magic.

Speaking of music, Dear You leitmotif=

Higanbana no Saku Yoru ni 2nd Night BGM - 手と手をつないで

[Aecheritt]

Now waiting for a Third Night amirite?

[HolyHawk]

It was a good chapter. Unfortunately, like others, I expected more, especially in relation to Higanbana and also the Nurse…

Anyways, moving on.
One of the main themes is that school is a sanctuary.

This wasn’t even assault. This was savagery.
To humans, this was an inexcusable act.
But in this alternative universe known as school, this was regrettably forgiven.
School was a sanctuary. And therefore exempt from the laws of the outside world.
Teachers here smothered and covered up all signs of bullying.
This was the orderless and chaotic world of school.

I don’t believe it’s that extreme, but I agree it’s still extreme. But it’s true that in many countries, juvenile law exist to exempt or substantially reduce the penalty for bullying. Further, bullying isn’t a recognised crime. Harassing, however, is. So is physical injuries. Neverthless, if it occurs in a school environment, for some reason, it is more acceptable resulting in no or a lesser penalty.

In the After School Chapter, I found this quote:
I think there’s a lot to be learned from bullying in this world.
Isn’t one way of putting up with poison of society to practice allowing yourself to experience a diluted version of it?
It’s a needed evil! A vaccine need to survived society!!!

I wonder what you guys/girls think about it.

I really enjoyed the journey of Higanbana. It made me reflect on several themes and ideas more deeply. But more significantly, participating in the bookclub and reading other people’s thoughts and reflections on each chapter was really enjoyable. Thank you everyone who participated and/or reflected on the story!!!

[Aspirety]

The Bookclub isn’t over yet! I hope you’ll continue joining the discussion for a little longer.

[MagusVerborum]

In this chapter we wrap things up. The characters are put to rest for good and we get once last chance to experience their lives before we leave them.

This chapter is a little odd in that we spend more time in the past than in the present, most episodic stories might try to leave with us with a big bang but Higanbana lets us take aslow ride to the end and honestly/ I am completely okay with that.

Watching Higanbana ‘bloom’ from an unfeeling doll into the murderous Youkai we all know and love was immensely satisfying. I wasn’t disappointed in the slightest that we didn’t get specific details on why that doll was chosen, I think it was implicitly stated that because the doll was popular, it was Western, it supposedly danced at night, it watched over the infirmary in such a peculiar place, it was chosen by the students to be one of the eight. Whatever’s weird, fascinating and scary in the school will be chosen, and from that point onwards it’s up to the Youkai that’s ‘born’ out of the tale to figure out how to continue existing.

To that point I really enjoyed how Higanbana exemplified a human debate on what is important in life, it parallels Night 2 Chapter 2 nicely and we get to see how the Youkai find purpose through through interactions with humans. In the same way our main artist Shuuichi finds purpose through expressing his emotions. Speaking of Shuuichi, he was excellent as an example of one who is bullied, who is taken by the humans who step into darkness, and how he acted as a stepping stone on the path to Higanbana’s future. I couldn’t help but smirk when i noted that his sprite is facing about 45 degrees off center, almost as if he’s turning to lead you somewhere, or looking back to make sure you’re following him. I should also note that I teared up when we saw the sprite of him much older with his shades on, the success story was more than I could have hoped for, and his final conversation with Higanbana was all too much for me.

There were a few other points that stood out to me:

Higanbana is an aspect of the darkness of the school, of suicide specifically. This seems to be commentary on Ryukishi’s part on the construction of ghost stories, how the mysteries have life breathed into them in this hypothetical world where the stories the children create can move about and have free will on their own.

Once again Ryukishi can’t help but express his own feelings about art in his work, depicting the artist as someone who sees the world differently, uniquely. Ryukishi seems to believe that it is the duty of an artist to express their own unique view, I really felt good about this line when I read it. There’s also an obvious parallel here through Shuuichi and the way he draws all of his emotions, not just the happy ones. This is something I noticed back in Night 2 Chapter 4 with Renoir’s descriptions and once again Ryukishi is encouraging people to express both the good and bad things about the world through the art that we create.

Speaking of which, the way Shuuichi describes his emotions reminds me of my own philisophy on life. I believe that the most important thing you can do as a human is create your own meaning, whether the sea, the sky, or the whole world is grey it doesn’t matter because it’s up to humans with agency to create something positive out of that. It’s up to us to blossom out of something that has no inherent meaning. The emotions that we feel and the things that we create are what give us purpose.

The ultimate message that we’re left with is that it’s up to the individual to make a change. I may not have a lot of power myself but I can still influence change. I hope that you will all join me in my discussion of this story, and those that come after. I just cannot wait for When They Cry 5!

[Karifean]

I think this is my favorite chapter of the whole game. It wasn’t hard to guess where it would be going, but it was a joy to follow along and watch it unfold. It feels like everything that Higanbana no Saku Yoru ni stands for is neatly tied up in this chapter. I never expected a satisfying conclusion to Higanbana given that the stories are all mostly standalone, but this chapter definitely surpassed my expectations in that regard. A lot of Higanbana, especially 2nd Night, is very contemplative about what the point of surviving each successive day even is, so having that very question essentially be Higanbana’s own past just works so well.

A splendid visual novel from a splendid author.

[VyseGolbez]

Like many, I enjoyed this final chapter. Just like how the first chapter felt like a prologue to me, this chapter in a way felt like an epilogue to me. And it was a good one. The message I took away from this particular chapter is “Yes, especially the environment of school gives way for terrible, awful things, but in the end it can still be something strengthening you. Even the negative emotions are part of life.” Hmm, I’m having trouble finding the right words. There’s a hopeful message in there, and I like that.

Now, the After School segment was mostly some silly fun, but there was one particular sentence that actually improved my opinion of chapter 6, which is interesting. I’m honestly a bit unsure in which topic I should post that change in perspective…

[Aspirety]

Post it in chapter 6 with a spoiler tag.

[Ushiromiya_Battler]

Unpopular opinion, but I found the last chapter to be a bit underwhelming. While I did enjoy watching Higanbana grow and learn to develop and embrace her emotions, and learning what yokai’s purpose is…for some reason this chapter didn’t resonate with me. I can understand the message behind it, but it just lacked impact. And like some other people, I was disappointed we never got to learn Higanbana’s origin.

I did however like the last scene where Higanbana and Shuuichi briefly talked, that was very sweet.

Overall, reading Higanbana no Saku Yoru ni has been quite an interesting and rather bittersweet experience. It depicted the humans at their absolute worst, but also portrayed them as beings capable of change and becoming a source of inspiration. This is the first Ryukishi work that I’ve actually read after Umineko (I only watched Higurashi), and initially it was weird for me to get accustomed to the structure of the overall story (I was a bit hesitant due to this not being a mystery and the lack of overarching storyline), but I learned to appreciate the writing, the characters and Ryukishi’s messages.

And for that very reason, I will be continuing with Rose Gun Days next.

I’m looking forward to seeing what else Ryukishi-san has in store for me.

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Lastly, I would like to thank everyone who took the time to read my comments.
I hope they weren’t too bad.

[machelmore]

I finished Higanbana a while ago, but for some reason it never even occurred to me to make a post here, so I’ll do that.

Why Ryukishi? Why have you done this? There’s so much material you teased us with but never covered.

What was that you were saying about the old school building in 2nd Night Ch.1? You ever gonna clue us in about that?

How about the connection between Higanbana the character and Higanbana the flower? No? Then what about the reason behind Higanbana’s particular hunting method? Every other youkai has a method to the madness, so why not her? And as for her attire… did she change her dress along with her personality or something?

What’s the connection between the Black Tea Gentlemen and Izanami anyway? And what’s with the sibling relationship between Sumire and Azami? Were they real siblings who died perhaps? Or was the relationship formed as youkai due to their similar hunting methods and appearances?

And is the headmaster ever gonna actually do anything? And speaking of, if there’s a ghost story about the spirit camera, wouldn’t you normally expect there to be an accompanying youkai?

To me, there’s clearly more than enough material for a third night or even a fourth night, and I at the very least felt like I was set up to expect more content and just didn’t get it. I’m not usually one to complain about “season 2 plz” but I feel like we were deliberately set up to expect more and were denied it.

HOWEVER this doesn’t mean that Higanbana wasn’t fucking amazing. It probably comes in last out of the two When They Cry series’ and Rose Guns Days, but that’s purely a product of it’s length. Something that only provided, say, 20 hours of entertainment could never hope to compete with something that provided over 100 hours of entertainment. But Higanbana honestly gives it a hell of a go. For reference, I rate Umineko first, Higurashi and RGD tied for second, and Higanbana last, but the difference between Umi and the next two is bigger than the difference between those two and Higanbana. If Higanbana had been as long as Umi while keeping up it’s quality, there’s no doubt it’d be my favourite fictional story of all time. Other than the Planetarian VN, Higanbana is the only story I’ve enjoyed more per unit time than the Rewrite VN - and that really says something.

I want to quickly address a mistake I’ve seen a lot of people make with Ryukishi. That is: what he writes does not necessarily reflect his own views. The characters are not him. The solution used for problem X is in all likelihood not the solution he personally thinks is the best. Just because he proposes a solution does not mean he can’t think of any other solutions, and it doesn’t even mean he thinks it’s the best solution. In particular, I feel like I’ve seen a lot of people think this about A Thistle of Vengeance, and it’s just not the case. All he’s saying is that it’s a solution, he’s not saying “this is the one-size fits all solution to any problem of this nature” - he’s not even necessarily saying that it’s a good solution. And I really feel like this is why people should read Higurashi before all Ryukishi’s other works - because by going back to his roots you can better understand the way Ryukishi thinks and the way he writes. I’m not claiming to understand the man better than anyone else, but coming from having read Higurashi first, I can’t even understand how people come to this kind of conclusion about what Ryukishi writes.

Now to quickly shout-out my 5 favourite chapters in order:
2nd Night Ch.6: A Thistle of Vengeance
2nd Night Ch.2: Reaper of the Thirteenth Step
1st Night Ch.7: Utopia
1st Night Ch.2: The Spirit Camera
2nd Night Ch.7: Before the Spider Lilies Bloomed

I of course loved every chapter, and it was difficult to choose, but I think it’s fair to say these are my top 5.

[Hovlane]

So I finally finished with Higabana and to be honest I’m slightly disappointed by the ending.

Ryukishi laid out so many different things throughout the chapters that never really came back, and thinking about how beautifully he tied up Umineko with more or less nothing that I was left wondering about, this just in general feels way more unsatisfactory.

For example in the first night we had Kanamori die and become more or less a roaming spirit. Higabana said shortly after this that if he was not strong enough all the other spirits would likely eat him up. While I guess I could go with the explanation that he did in fact get eaten by those spirits it just seems like he was trying to build something up that never came into fruition.

Another one was the 2nd night 6th chapter for a thistle of vengeance. I kind of laid out what I thought of the situation that Yukari put herself into but it was hidden mostly behind spoiler tags for Code Geass so I will explain what I was talking about without using that and basically say what I thought. Yukari has only really created a tempory Utopia. While she has made it so that there is no bullying in her class she has only accomplished this through making everyone afraid of herself. While this does work in the short term, she will eventually either loose the power of the thistle or she will loose her will to continue to stand up to bullying. While maybe neither of these two may happen while she is at school, if they do occur at school the entire class will rise up and attempt to “liberate” themselves from her dictatorship. Either way it just felt as if it never really came to a solid conclusion.

Even with all of that, I am still glad I read Higabana. My complaints of the series do not outweigh the joy I had reading through a new Rykushi work that I have not read before as I have found myself in complete love of his writing style.