Kakera Theory [Higurashi and Umineko Spoilers]

That just makes it more complicated, yet I’m not sure either. We see throughout that the time (especially towards the end) at which they “enter” the new world is later and later. So, before Rika’s memories start in the new world (whenever she has that “wake up” moment) who was she before that? Was she like the Rika of the very first world where she was blissfully ignorant of her fate? Is she replaced by the world-hopping Rika? Is the same soul carried over but for some reason the memories aren’t accessed until later on?

@Isae your question brought up even more questions and not much in the way of answer I think. The logic behind that question seems to support a “rewind” theory over a “parallel universe” theory; but if you took both of these together, it could work, somehow.

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This one is the idea behind my “how far into the past Hanyuu can send Rika’s memories is what’s really getting shorter” theory, which I posted earlier in the thread. So until the memories are accessed, yes, she would be like the Rika in the first world (in theory).

I don’t really believe that Rika and Hanyuu are different from world to world, but if someone believes that the worlds are completely separate, I don’t see the logic behind thinking that only Rika and Hanyuu are the same people, unless one thinks that memories are all there is to a person.

Edit: This might make things even more confusing, but think of it this way:

Let’s say there’s someone we’ll call Person A. A perfect clone is created of Person A, including memories. Person A dies. It’s tempting to think of the clone as Person A now, right?

But let’s look at Person B. Person B also has a clone with their memories made of them. But Person B does not die. Now there’s no way anyone is going to think of the clone as Person B, right?

But the same thing is happening in both cases.

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First of all, I just want to say thank you for this topic. Figuring out the meta-world of When They Cry has always been one of the most intriguing topics of the series for me. Hopefully I’ll be able to give a new perspective on this topic.

That said, I’ll admit I haven’t actually read through Minagoroshi-hen or Matsuribayashi-hen proper, so I only have the general jist of how Higurashi uses them and a lot of thinking about Umineko itself. I’d say my rough interpretation is that from the perspective of the witches, these fragments are an objectification of reality. From this higher plane, the space is afforded for there to be multiple realities. To the people living ‘within’ these fragments, they may as well be parallel realities. I think it’s possible for these multiple selves to be woven togetther, which is how someone ‘transcends’ them and becomes a higher entity like a witch. With Higurashi, we see this through Rika becoming Bernkastel. With Umineko it becomes murkier by having the idea of these parallel realities (fragments) be interwoven with the concept of fiction/imagination, which itself has a lot of interesting implications. This almost implies that our ability to imagine worlds has a hand in creating them, which would fit with the ‘possibility’ idea (since our ability to imagine does seem intimately connected to the introduction of possibility to reality). That’s a quick run down of my reading of how fragments work and what they are, but there’s more to the story.

Ever since Umineko’s fragments captured my imagination, I’ve been interested in figuring out the ‘crystal’ as a symbol. It just so happens that crystals show up everywhere in japanese media. Most notably is the Final Fantasy series. This is significant, because Ryuukishi has actually said he gets that handle from Final Fantasy V (Dragon Knight). I can look up a source if people are interested. Knowing this, I’ve kind of always seen When They Cry as expanding on the crystal mythos from the earlier Final Fantasy games.

From what I can gather, crystals in Final Fantasy have a couple aspects to them. I think some of these aspects are retained, some are expanded upon, and some are revised. In Final Fantasy, the crystals’ true nature is left fairly ambiguous, just as in WTC, but there’s a fair bit more information to work with. Generally across the FF series, crystals seem to be sentient entities with connections to the deeper fabric of reality, usually being connected to the ‘balance of the world’. Later games (such as FFXIV) seem to have something of a ‘mothercrystal’ which may represent that reality as a whole. When these crystals are destroyed, their shards or fragments seem to retain the memories (and skills) of past heroes, whose abilities are then bestowed upon the warriors who are destined to save the crystals. A notable feature is that these warriors are ‘burdened’ with this fate of saving the world, which is something the Fabula Nova Crystallis games have been focusing on.

There seem to be many parallels here to WTC, but WTC makes the whole affair less mythological and more personal. Instead of the Warriors of Light being burdened with fate, we have Rika trapped in this tragedy. Instead of ‘past warriors’ bestowing abilities on the warriors of light, we have Rika retaining memories from her past selves. From here I think things get more interesting and could potentially gleam some light on the prior discussion in this thread.

How I’ve always interpreted the fragments, especially in regards to Umineko’s ‘many truths’ angle, is that they are a record of a perspective. In this case, Rika’s perspective. This is where the ‘crystals being sentient’ idea is basically revised to instead be much more personal, rather being a record of an individual’s memories (recall the events of EP7’s Tea Party in the Meta-Theater and their connection to Eva). This also connects with the idea of a ‘mothercrystal’ being representative of an entire reality. If the ‘truth’ of a situation is the sum total of everyone’s perspectives (no matter how varied they are) then it makes sense that each fragment of this whole would be representative of an individual perspective within that reality.

This may not help much in figuring out the exact lore on how fragments work in Higurashi or Umineko, but I hope this added perspective on the lineage of fragments is interesting to you guys. Crystals are a symbol that I find super intriguing, especially the many varied but similar ways they show up across multiple different storiess.

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Thank you for the well thought out response! I find this topic really interesting, too. If I had the scripts of Umineko on hand, I’d like to go through that and Higurashi and find everything that’s said about worlds or kakera. It might prove enlightening!

You’ve given me a lot to think about. Let me digest a bit and I’ll give you a more intelligent response. In any event, I hope you consider sticking around this thread. :slightly_smiling:

I certainly will stick around! I haven’t even gotten much into the whole parallel reality side of it, which I think is another really interesting addition WTC makes to the crystal mythos (which Final Fantasy taken as a whole meta-series as well as other games like Bravely Default expand upon). Figuring out what these fragments are and how the meta-world works is something I find infinitely fascinating. I feel like there must be some grander cultural significance to crystals as a symbol that I’m not competely aware of.

This reminds me of another important that I forgot to mention. Crystals are more generally used as an artefact that ‘saves’ things, whether it be memories or even whole world-states (as in save points in a video game). This itself has interesting implications on Higurashi’s use of them as well.

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That’s what I believe, too! I feel like there’s always been a debate on the origin of Bernkastel and who came first (I think that in itself could become a nice thread) but I think the real world entities ‘transcending’ and going on to become witches is more likely. At some point Bernkastel herself said that a witch is merely a person who has defeated death. (Spoiler) That would apply to both Rika and Takano, having at different points defeated death. Takano with her defiance towards God when she told him to kill her and the lighting struck near her, and of course Rika when she finally broke the endless cycle. And of course, the type of witch they are stems from how they did it, somewhat. In general, all witches seem to get their title from an aspect about them in their human life, so the ‘witches first’ theory seems less likely. Sorry for the long spoiler bit, I just don’t wanna risk it!

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I’ve now opened this thread to Umineko spoilers!

@Keriaku I’m not an expert on Final Fantasy, but I’m still embarrassed that I never made the connection between FF’s crystals and WTC’s fragments, even though I knew that Ryukishi’s handle came from FF.

Despite not having read through Minagoroshi or Matsuribayashi, you nailed a lot of things on how fragments are portrayed in them, which makes me think that you’re on the right track.

For instance, in the prologue of Minagoroshi the fragments are called ‘memory fragments’ or ‘fragments of memory’ once or twice. I think this fits in well with how you said you said you think the fragments are a record of a perspective. Also in Umineko EP5 when Battler, Lambda, and Bern are in the Sea of Fragments, Battler thinks that the fragments are crystallizations of memories. Lambda corrects him, saying that they’re fragments of worlds, but that they would probably feel like memories to him.

I feel like I’m getting it to an extent, but I guess now I’m just confused about how much is subjective and how much is objective when it comes to fragments. I mean, I know it’s a work of fiction, meaning that there’s no real distinction between subjective and objective, but Umineko, for example, is self-contained. It’s up to the reader to decide whether the Sea of Fragments is “real” or not, and I kind of feel like that should be the case with Higurashi, too.

Not to toot my own horn, but I still feel like my “one true world in Higurashi” theory would fit with this the best, only, as I’ve said, it doesn’t quite work because the worlds continue after Rika leaves them. Hmm, must think on this more…

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I’d say that Takano never really makes it to the point of being a witch, since as far as I understand (unless my hazy memory of the anime rendition of Matsuribayashi-hen is lacking) Takano never transcends the individual worlds. At most she gets glimmers of it in the same way the rest of the Higurashi club does. And this is why Lambdadelta is said to be bestowing her power upon Takano rather then being born of Takano herself.

I think an important point to add here is that Umineko and Ryuukishi himself seems to put a lot of work into breaking down that subjective/objective dichotomy. He criticizes the idea of there being one true ‘objective reality’ (witches’s game and truth’s colliding), while simultaneously elevating the status of purely ‘subjective experience’ (fantasy and the power of belief). I’d say he’s really arguing for a middle ground between the two, or rather trying to sublimate the dichotomy altogether.

Running along with what I said in my first post in the thread, I think Umineko takes a more nuanced stance where fragments represent possibility, and possibility is connected to our ability to imagine. This can be small, on the scale of Maria using her imagination to find happiness (which EP4 actually calls ‘finding happy fragments’) or this can be large, on the scale of Beatrice planning out a different iteration of the mystery. Either way, it’s less about subjective/objective, and more about our ability to imagine and actualize.

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So going back to the original question of the thread, how would anyone else besides Rika and Hanyuu remember other worlds? It’s tricky, because it has to be a special, miraculous thing, and yet it also has to make a certain amount of sense.

Judging by your remark on how crystals are generally an artifact that “saves” things, I’m guessing you believe it has something to do with the fragments themselves?

“one true world in Higurashi” theory would fit with this the best, only, as I’ve said, it doesn’t quite work because the worlds continue after Rika leaves them.

If we assume that magic exist, then it’s possible that Higurashi happened in some sort of pocket universe, where global universe time were standing still, waiting for Hanyuu to decide which world would be the final ‘truth’ (in which case every world has/had continuation even without Rika and Hanyuu, but is not seen/weren’t seen outside pocket universe). Each new world was composed from shuffled ‘event pieces’ (a.k.a kakeras). But then we’ve got another problem, where did the kakeras come from? Did creation of a world ‘consume’ them?

If we go along with the realistic way, then each Higurashi arc is just some sort of a book. Continuation of the worlds without Rika is just a few extra lines of text from an unknown author (possibly Ikuko).

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That’s a intriguing idea! So in that case, once the final ‘truth’ was decided, would the other worlds in the pocket universe stop existing, or would they keep going somehow?

As far as where the kakeras come from, maybe Rika and Hanyuu “generated” a new one every time they went back in time? Sort of like rolling dice multiple times trying to get a more favorable outcome.

I’m not sure why anyone would want to think that, aside from really, really not wanting magic to exist, but I suppose it works.

I don’t recall any clear evidence of either (maybe it’s time to reread Umineko) from WTC series. Them completely ceasing to exist would be sort of illogical, since it would kill the ‘time’ aspect of the pocket universe. But it sort of make sense, that once the correct world has been chosen, the others would just be ‘preserved’ by some sort of fabric of space into said kakeras, which would still continue to exist on their own. So I think that they’re either left as is (but aren’t seen to global universe) or have been turned into more complex kakeras (representing whole world state) and are drifting in some sort of special sea of fragments. (The latter makes even more sense, now that I’m thinking about it. Since even witches can’t alternate the final truth, but are able to see another possibilites (as seen with Umineko’s cat box))

For some reason I don’t like that ‘going back in time’ thing. I’m more willing to think that they either were hopping on already existing worlds or had been creating a new one along the way.

I really like thinking both ways. Some moments are easier explained with one way than with the other, so it’s very stimulating to make them both work!

I like it. This might be just the thing I was looking for. Thank you!

I don’t mean actually going back in time on a single timeline, I mean more just that when they arrive at a “new world” they’re farther back in time in that world than the last one.

Fair enough! :relaxed:

Edit:

Hmm, I was wondering, how does time work with these kakeras? Like, if Rika’s been at it for a hundred years, does that mean a hundred years have passed in her original world?

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If you mean 'how does time flow inside those kakeras after being “kakeraized”? ‘, then yes, it have. I believe for this theory to stay true it’s necessary to have a coherent global time. However, those kakeras’ worlds may have different starting points, therefore having a different “time zones”.

But, I guess, nothing restricts just keeping them suspended, which in a sense wouldn’t kill time aspect, either. In this case some sort of a higher being can play up to the saved point, rewind or fast-forward(last one is debatable, since it still can result in paradoxes, hmmm) them, since they’re no longer affecting global universe. (Like a film, even though they may contain depictions of some sort of higher being, they’re just an echo/empty shell, rejected by the global universe and left to drift in the sea).

Edit:

Well, I need to actually think about this more. It struck me that if kakeras are not suspended, they can generate more accidents like Higurashi in the future (and they won’t be synchronized). So, I’ll stick to the second way for now.

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I think this is my new favourite word.

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Well, in Tsumihoroboshi, we see events long after Rika dies, so I’m not sure they could be suspended… Maybe time flows normally when they’re in the pocket universe, but then when the “true world” has been chosen, the un-chosen kakeras are suspended?

Sorry if I’m misunderstanding something…

That’s what I meant. Sorry for my mediocre English :yum:

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Ah, sorry about that! It’s a good sign that we seem to be on the same wavelength in terms of where we’re going with this, though.

But let’s see, the epilogue of Tsumihoroboshi takes place about 20 years after Rika dies. If the “true world” is chosen only two worlds later, then there shouldn’t have been enough time for the Tsumihoroboshi world to reach 20 years later, right?

…But if we were to apply my “memory delay” theory (i.e., Rika always “arrives” in a world about 5 years before June 1983, and the worlds continue for a number of years before the next world “starts”), then we could just barely make it work…

But in that case, Rika’s original world would be at least hundreds of years into the future by the time the “true world” was chosen! I guess there’s nothing logically wrong with that, but I still don’t like it for some reason…

Well, in Minagoroshi’s prologue, Frederica says that there were many other worlds besides the ones we’re familiar with, but they gradually dissolved into the darkness and disappeared.

Meaning…maybe even within the pocket universe, the worlds only continue for a certain amount of time before they are suspended and fade away to wherever they end up.

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I don’t think Higurashi were written with that much consideration, so we’re making theories on a very shacky grounds in the first place. Especially if want to apply Umineko’s logic.
Another possibility: this is not the memory transition taking time, but it’s a world creation that does (waiting for suitable kakeras to build a new world from).

Not quite. If we accept the magic ending in Umineko, then we should’ve got the “real world” after quite a few years. But we didn’t (Ange didn’t age so much) (Edit: although it was just a few days each game. I guess we need another proof). As I suggested, the “true world” for the universe containing it (which could be a pocket universe, too, I guess. This is getting really serious :sweat_smile:) should be suspended, until all the paradoxes (like Hanyuu’s divine intervention) are resolved.

So we can possibly get the kakeras for building new worlds. We should consider Frederica’s statement from now on.

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That’s true. While I think Higurashi and Umineko are very intelligent works, there are some aspects of them that seem to operate on a sort of dream logic, or maybe ‘child logic’ would be a better term?

Oh, by original world, I don’t mean the ‘greater universe,’ I mean the first world to be ‘kakeraized.’ But I guess it doesn’t matter if we’re assuming that these worlds do in fact fade away after a certain amount of time.

Edit: A couple more random thoughts on kakera:

-In the epilogue of Minagoroshi, Frederica says she made a kakera where Rika wins against Takano, but she isn’t going to show the reader because the kakera Rika is going to create will “shine much brighter.” Why is the kakera Rika creates being treated as more “real” than the one Frederica created? Could this be thought of as evidence that there is one “true world”?

-In Umineko EP7, Bernkastel says that it took her a mind-boggling amount of effort to find Lion’s kakera. If one just has to imagine a kakera in order to create it, then why did she even have to search? Also, she says that Lion should grateful to her for weaving this miracle. Does that mean that Lion’s kakera wasn’t “real” until Bernkastel made it real somehow?

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