Kakera Theory [Higurashi and Umineko Spoilers]

[Infinite_Finite]

As much as I like my version, I think it doesn’t fit in with Higurashi, after all. I’ll still try explain with my theory for fun.

Why is the kakera Rika creates being treated as more “real” than the one Frederica created? Could this be thought of as evidence that there is one “true world”?

I think witches are free to create kakeras from available smaller kakeras, but they can’t make them real if they’re contradicting reality (like Miyoko not losing her parents). So it’s left adrift.
(In this case there is no particular reason to introduce Hanyuu. She really serves no purpose (except fanservice, of course), as in the end it’s Bernkastel/Rika who is composing final world. In manga Bernkastel even says to Rika “you and I are the only beings able to watch it from the outside”. Although she may be used to cause paradox, therefore allowing for “retrying”)

Bernkastel says that it took her a mind-boggling amount of effort to find Lion’s kakera. If one just has to imagine a kakera in order to create it, then why did she even have to search?

Maybe because witches can’t affect reality (outside of cases that involve resolving paradoxes about them), they can only create potential worlds out of existing kakeras. But real people writing fiction about Rokkenjima unintentionally created potential worlds that dissolved after some time, therefore producing kakeras (assuming it has to be brought by living people, as with Rika). And almost nobody considered Lion to be alive (keyword is almost). But does it mean then that Erika was popular version?

And the biggest dissonance in my theory is that Bernkastel would have eventually seen whodunnit, but she clearly states

and

(which still bothers me, why Hanyuu couldn’t have told her whodunnit before? Or why Hanyuu is not in the list of observers in the first place?)

New theory:
It’s still happening in some sort of pocket universe, global universe still have to be suspended, but time inside pocket universe can be rewound. Since it’s a game between witches it must uphold certain rules (X - one of the protagonists always go crazy, Y - Tomitake and Takano are always killed on the night of Watanagashi, Z - Sonozaki family bluffs everything). According to those rules “infinite” (according to Frederica) number of worlds were created; creation of a new one is also possible, but it must abide said rules.
But if time is rewound every time it really is a miracle that anybody except Rika can remember the past. Maybe it’s some sort of purgatory and they have to redeem or something?
And the continuations could only be seen after they’ve stopped rewinding time. It’s shown only for players’ convenience. (This should only happen after events of Higurashi). But if those worlds are not stopped, they still can produce paradoxes (here we go again . I guess Ryuukishi did a bad job on this one)

Edit:

Bernkastel says that it took her a mind-boggling amount of effort to find Lion’s kakera.

With new theory it becomes logical.

Frederica says she made a kakera where Rika wins against Takano, but she isn’t going to show the reader because the kakera Rika is going to create will “shine much brighter.”

“Shine brighter” probably means that while events could be avoided, Rika wouldn’t make any friends (as seen in Hou, if memory serves me right). But in case everything did in fact happen, everybody’s soul mate.

[Isae]

Well, in regards to the manga scans, it doesn’t seem to be a great translation. Frederica doesn’t say that she and Rika are the only beings who can watch it from the outside. She simply says they are beings who can watch the story from the outside.

Since it’s a game between witches it must uphold certain rules (X - one of the protagonists always go crazy, Y - Tomitake and Takano are always killed on the night of Watanagashi, Z - Sonozaki family bluffs everything). According to those rules “infinite” (according to Frederica) number of worlds were created; creation of a new one is also possible, but it must abide said rules.

But if those are the rules, then what’s the point of playing since winning is impossible? (Remember that Rika’s death is also part of Rule Y.) And it’s not that I don’t believe you, but where did she say an infinite number of worlds were created, again?

“Shine brighter” probably means that while events could be avoided, Rika wouldn’t make any friends (as seen in Hou, if memory serves me right). But in case everything did in fact happen, everybody’s soul mate.

Well, she actually says ‘Rika and her friends’, plus she says “Rather than any story I could write, the story Rika will weave herself will be much more wonderful.” Again, Frederica’s kakera is being treated as “just a story”…

After thinking about it, I’m not sure hard, sci-fi-esque explanations of how fragments work really suit Higurashi (or Umineko) that well. On the other hand, I don’t like explanations which are pure meta, with no internal logic, either. It’s hard to find a middle ground, though…

Anyway, I think so far we can pretty much all agree that kakeras represent possibilities. To me, the problem seems to be the question of ‘What determines what’s possible?’ For example, apparently there were no kakera where Takano decided not to kill Rika. Why not? It’s certainly not physically impossible for Takano to decide not to go through with it.

[Infinite_Finite]

And it’s not that I don’t believe you, but where did she say an infinite number of worlds were created, again?

I’m not sure hard, sci-fi-esque explanations of how fragments work really suit Higurashi (or Umineko) that well.

I think one could sort of explain Umineko’s logic, since it does seem to inforce some rules. But trying to explain both Umineko and Higurashi is next to impossible.

But if those are the rules, then what’s the point of playing since winning is impossible? (Remember that Rika’s death is also part of Rule Y.)

Well, according to Rika she’s “changing fate”. And in fact they did fake her death (can’t really remember if they faked Tomitake’s).

For example, apparently there were no kakera where Takano decided not to kill Rika

Maybe they weren’t lucky enough to find one? Or it contradicts some hidden rule? We don’t know win conditions of the game (we can assume it’s to find whodunnit as with Umineko, but this may not be the case)

[Isae]

I think one could sort of explain Umineko’s logic, since it does seem to inforce some rules. But trying to explain both Umineko and Higurashi is next to impossible.

I’m not saying they can’t work, I’m just saying I don’t think those kinds of explanations match the “feel” of Higurashi/Umineko. I agree that it’s pretty much impossible to get Higurashi and Umineko to work together, though.

Maybe they weren’t lucky enough to find one? Or it contradicts some hidden rule? We don’t know win conditions of the game (we can assume it’s to find whodunnit as with Umineko, but this may not be the case)

I don’t think it’s to find whodunnit, because Rika finds that out in Minagoroshi, but she still doesn’t win. If we believe Hanyuu in Matsuribayashi, then Rika and Hanyuu’s objective is indeed for Rika to survive (and of course, that means Takano has to fail in her goal).

Anyway, I think so far we can pretty much all agree that kakeras represent possibilities. To me, the problem seems to be the question of ‘What determines what’s possible?’ For example, apparently there were no kakera where Takano decided not to kill Rika. Why not? It’s certainly not physically impossible for Takano to decide not to go through with it.

@Keriaku I’d be interested in your thoughts on this.

Edit: I think part of the problem is that Ryukishi seems to want to have it both ways; he wants the metaworld to contain infinite possibilities, but he’s also intrigued by the idea of an ‘inescapable fate.’ (We see this with both Rika and Beatrice.)

[Infinite_Finite]

he wants the metaworld to contain infinite possibilities, but he’s also intrigued by the idea of an ‘inescapable fate.’

Well, it’s possible to have both. As an analogy, there’re infinite numbers between any two numbers, but other numbers outside those two exist, too. If we take a step up, there’re infinite number of natural numbers, but we have 0 and negative numbers, too.

So it’s certainly infinite possibilities, but inforced by some rules (“boundaries”).
And even though one’s fate is predeterminated it’s still possible to get infinite number of ways leading to destinied event. (Although both Beatrice and Rika sort of broke free. As did Lion. Well, I guess, even Umineko doesn’t conform to the rules fully).

I don’t think it’s to find whodunnit, because Rika finds that out in Minagoroshi, but she still doesn’t win…Rika and Hanyuu’s objective is indeed for Rika to survive

I believe it’s both to find whodunnit + howdunnit (why inforce rule Z, if this is not the case? Why even put solvable mystery into the story? Minor Hotarubi spoilers: So far Hotarubi doesn’t look like mystery, so it doesn’t try to act like one unlike Higurashi) and for protagonists to survive (actually, it looks more like to redeem themselves, but what for?).

[Isae]

So it’s certainly infinite possibilities, but inforced by some rules (“boundaries”).And even though one’s fate is predeterminated it’s still possible to get infinite number of ways leading to destinied event. (Although both Beatrice and Rika sort of broke free. As did Lion. Well, I guess, even Umineko doesn’t conform to the rules fully).

I see your point. I guess I’m still just unsure about what’s determining those rules. Unless we’re going to say that witches determined them, and that outside of that there really are no boundaries when it comes to possibilities?

I believe it’s both to find whodunnit + howdunnit (why inforce rule Z, if this is not the case? Why even put solvable mystery into the story? Minor Hotarubi spoilers: So far Hotarubi doesn’t look like mystery, so it doesn’t try to act like one unlike Higurashi ) and for protagonists to survive (actually, it looks more like to redeem themselves, but what for?).

But in Higurashi, no one ever actually solves any part of the mystery through deduction unlike Umineko, well, except Ooishi in Minagoroshi thinking that Takano killed Tomitake.

Maybe I’m the only one, but I don’t think anyone is actually reinforcing the rules. Well, Rule Y is based on Takano’s strong will, but the other two are based on things that have existed in Hinamizawa for generations (namely, Hinamizawa syndrome and Sonozaki’s custom of bluffing). So unless the game board spans a thousand years, these rules can’t be enforced by someone. So I think she calls them ‘rules’ similar to how we call laws of nature ‘laws’ even though they aren’t being enforced by anyone.

[Infinite_Finite]

I guess I’m still just unsure about what’s determining those rules.

Well, in case of Higurashi it probably was determined by witches, as part of the rules of the game. In case of Umineko outcome was already determined. Eva concealed truth, therefore allowing witches to speculate events on Rokkenjima between October 4 and October 5 (but they should have predefined outcome).

outside of that there really are no boundaries when it comes to possibilities?

Pretty much so, in my opinion. Edit: but it should follow some basic logic, at the very least.

But in Higurashi, no one ever actually solves any part of the mystery through deduction unlike Umineko

We’ve constantly seen Keiichi trying to solve it (also Shion in Meakashi), as well as Ooishi. The point was not for a gameboard piece to solve the mystery, but for the one of the playing witches through them (in Matsuribayashi, Rika just outright says whodunnit and whydunnit to friends, so they can concentrate on surviving). Even if the GM and opponent (assuming it was Lambda) left the game at some point (as Lambda doesn’t know who the culprit is, which is strange in many ways), requirement to solve the mystery still was met by Bernkastel.

Rule Y is based on Takano’s strong will

Strong will to die? I actually think it was intentional rule, made originally to throw off the opponent of the game (with the loophole in mind).

[Isae]

Strong will to die? I actually think it was intentional rule, made originally to throw off the opponent of the game (with the loophole in mind).

No, I mean that Takano’s strong will to make her grandfather into a “god” was what caused the circumstances that gave rise to Rule Y, not that Takano actually sat down and wrote that there was going to be a rule where she killed Tomitake and Rika (and “herself”) in every world.

The thing is, in Higurashi itself, there was no indication that there was a game going on between witches. Frederica was essentially a device for the author to speak directly to the reader. If the game aspect of Higurashi had been expanded upon well in Umineko, then I might be more inclined to accept it, but on the contrary, it was handled in a very half-assed way (which is why you get things like Lambda not knowing who the culprit is).

That’s why I would prefer an explanation for Higurashi where you can involve Umineko or not, and involve witches or not. To be honest, I’m still favoring my “one true world in Higurashi” theory, which I’m just going to call “Hinamizawa Prime” from now on. I don’t even care about the worlds still continuing after Rika leaves them; it’s not like anything important happens long after she dies, so we can just say those scenes are for reader benefit. What I’m trying to figure out now is how the “boundaries” can work without witch rules.

[WitchOfGames]

Somewhat a little related because the concept of Kakera and observers relates to Meta. There was a Japanese TV series called Easy Chair Detective that ran from 1999 to 2008 where each mystery was divided into two episodes with the first episode being called the Question Arc and the second one being called the Answer Arc. The Question Arc presented the mystery to the audience and provided enough clues for the audience to develop theories, and in the next week, the Answer Arc summoned the Easy Chair Detective who spoke with all the characters of the story in a place called the “pure logic space”, which was a meta place ruled by logic. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

I think perhaps maybe Ryukishi was planning Umineko in the writing stages of Minagoroshi, hence the scene with Frederica and Rika about the Fragments and developing rules for the fragments. And maybe, because Rika is still a child, it’s easier for her to view the situation as a game with rules due to circumstances that repeat often. And in the case of Lambda not knowing who the culprit is for Higurashi, it’s stated that she only supported Takano due to her strong will, and that Featherine was the player of Higurashi, not that Lambda was GM of it, and that Bern became a witch out of the events of it because Featherine left her to solve it. But honestly, Kakera Theory is probably the least developed part of the series to me, because you have witches interacting with the fragments, and I believe in Hotarubi, Lambda interacts with the Kakera to play the game, but otherwise, all we know about Kakera is that there is a sea of close to infinite Kakera, powerful witches can interact with them and enter them, and each Kakera is generally self-contained (so K1 and company being able to remember stuff from other Kakera despite not being on the Meta is kinda shocking).

[Infinite_Finite]

not that Takano actually sat down and wrote that there was going to be a rule where she killed Tomitake and Rika (and “herself”) in every world.

That was sarcasm

I mean that Takano’s strong will to make her grandfather into a “god” was what caused the circumstances that gave rise to Rule Y

Well, why did she always kill Tomitake then? If it’s not enforced, there is chance that he’d join her out of his love for her.

However, you’re probably right, because in Matsuribayashi Tomitake didn’t die on the night of Watanagashi, as far as I remember (but I’d like somebody to remind me whether his death was faked or not). Plus in manga it’s clearly said that they’d broken one of the rules.

the game aspect of Higurashi expanded upon Umineko was handled in a very half-assed way

Half-assed or not, it’s still crucial in my opinion.

Let’s just make one thing clear: do we want to build somewhat sturdy theory for kakeraverse in WTC as the whole, or just explain Higurashi and Umineko? You’re somewhat going for the latter.

What I’m trying to figure out now is how the “boundaries” can work without witch rules.

Well, as one of the possibilities, which I don’t really like, but still, there might exist some “universe will” (Steins;Gate major spoiler: it’s possible to alter fate by altering the past. But otherwise destinied events are doomed to happen; so it’s something like that).

Edit:
Even though I mostly agree with you about the rules by now, it’s seems Ryuukishi indeed used them as boundaries for generating kakeras. How come one can break those rules and yet there was not a single such world before? (or was there?)

[Infinite_Finite]

And maybe, because Rika is still a child, it’s easier for her to view the situation as a game

Well, she’s a child only in appearence. I think game was not mentioned, because Bernkastel actually didn’t know a thing about it, she was just pushed to it by Featherine (she had to find out the rules herself).

Featherine was the player of Higurashi

It’s stated by Lambda that Featherine was the creator and GM until some point. It would be strange to play game just with yourself, alhough it’s not impossible, either.

interact with them and enter them

I believe at some point it’s said that they can also create them (I’ll try to find it later).

so K1 and company being able to remember stuff from other Kakera despite not being on the Meta is kinda shocking

That’s the biggest problem that bothers me. It could be explained if there was explicit GM, acting at crucial times instead of the game pieces. But neither theory presented in this thread so far can explain this.

By the way, welcome aboard. The more, the merrier

[Isae]

I think perhaps maybe Ryukishi was planning Umineko in the writing stages of Minagoroshi, hence the scene with Frederica and Rika about the Fragments and developing rules for the fragments. And maybe, because Rika is still a child, it’s easier for her to view the situation as a game with rules due to circumstances that repeat often. And in the case of Lambda not knowing who the culprit is for Higurashi, it’s stated that she only supported Takano due to her strong will, and that Featherine was the player of Higurashi, not that Lambda was GM of it, and that Bern became a witch out of the events of it because Featherine left her to solve it. But honestly, Kakera Theory is probably the least developed part of the series to me, because you have witches interacting with the fragments, and I believe in Hotarubi, Lambda interacts with the Kakera to play the game, but otherwise, all we know about Kakera is that there is a sea of close to infinite Kakera, powerful witches can interact with them and enter them, and each Kakera is generally self-contained (so K1 and company being able to remember stuff from other Kakera despite not being on the Meta is kinda shocking).

If Lambda wasn’t Featherine’s (and Rika’s) opponent in the Higurashi, then who was? Also, in one of the early witch tea parties, Bernkastel specifically says that she was born from Lambda’s game, which makes Lambda sound like the GM. I guess Bernkastel could have been lying… but it seems more likely that Ryukishi retconned it later.

Well, why did she always kill Tomitake then? If it’s not enforced, there is chance that he’d join her out of his love for her.

Well, she does ask him to join her before she kills him, but I guess Tomitake has a strong will not to join, because he never does in any of the worlds.

However, you’re probably right, because in Matsuribayashi Tomitake didn’t die on the night of Watanagashi, as far as I remember (but I’d like somebody to remind me whether his death was faked or not). Plus in manga it’s clearly said that they’d broken one of the rules.

Even in the visual novels, it says that they broke the rules. Rule X was broken in Tsumihoroboshi, Rule Z was broken in Minagoroshi, and Rule Y was broken in Matsuribayashi. That’s why I think the rules are more like patterns that are hard to go against, rather than hard-set rules. Also, technically the Great Hinamizawa Disaster is also part of Rule Y, and that didn’t happen in Watanagashi/Meakashi, so even before the answer arcs, Rule Y had been partially broken before.

(Tomitake’s death was not faked, by the way.)

Let’s just make one thing clear: do we want to build somewhat sturdy theory for kakeraverse in WTC as the whole, or just explain Higurashi and Umineko? You’re somewhat going for the latter.

While I would love to build a theory for the kakeraverse in WTC, I don’t think it’s possible to do that while incorporating all the details of the Higurashi game board as given in Umineko, because as I said on another thread, we don’t even know the most basic info about it.

Also, I don’t think Higurashi should have to be dependent on Umineko in order to be understood.

So I guess my stance is, full kakeraverse theory if possible, and if not, just Higurashi and Umineko separately.

That’s the biggest problem that bothers me. It could be explained if there was explicit GM, acting at crucial times instead of the game pieces. But neither theory presented in this thread so far can explain this.

I would say that’s the question at the heart of this thread, and you’re right, no one has really been able to explain it yet.

Edit:

all we know about Kakera is that there is a sea of close to infinite Kakera, powerful witches can interact with them and enter them, and each Kakera is generally self-contained (so K1 and company being able to remember stuff from other Kakera despite not being on the Meta is kinda shocking).

Well, how about this? In Saikoroshi, (Saikoroshi spoilers) [spoiler] Hanyuu says that she and Rika have traveled across the fragments by connecting them like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Maybe that connection between the fragments allowed the memories to travel from one world to another to an extent? Or something.

Then again, keep in mind that we should probably take everything Hanyuu says in Saikoroshi with a grain of salt, because the whole “perfect world” might have just been a dream Hanyuu showed Rika. [/spoiler]

And a random question: if kakeras represent possibilities, then wouldn’t it be impossible to “create” one yourself, since if it was a possibility it would automatically exist as a kakera?

Or maybe “witch interference” isn’t taken into account in kakeras that automatically exist?

[WitchOfGames]

I think that IF Lambda wasn’t Featherine’s opponent for Higurashi and was only pretending to not know who the culprit was in the Tea Party for Banquet, that could make sense (as her behavior before Miragecoordinator kicks in was meant to be joking, probably to allure Bern into a sense of security, because Lambda does place the rule on Ange not saying her name, so maybe her whole silliness was just a ruse.) Then again, it could be a retcon Ryukishi tried to fix later on because of speculations? I wouldn’t put it past Ryukishi. It would be nice if Ryukishi could clarify the rules of Kakera, since Higurashi being a witch game really seems like an afterthought change during the course of Umineko, so we could find out whether there was a GM or not for Higurashi.

Rika still has a child’s mind after living for so long, since she actually requires the help of the club to figure out WHY Takano would essentially throw her research away in a blaze of glory, and she does a lot of things like testing fate or just being plain stubborn in not bothering to fight Satoko’s fate in Minagoroshi until the older members convince her otherwise, since a lot of kids sulk and gripe about things when they realize things can’t always go their way, even when other possibilities exist. While not everything Hanyuu says can be trusted in Saikoroshi, I would think that maybe at least that interpretation is correct? And Rika is able to remember the timelines due to being connected to Hanyuu as her 8th generation descendant, but since there is no official answer, that’s my speculation.

I would think that is IS possible for people to create a Kakera, much like how Evatrice, Erika, and B. Battler are given forms due to the many people of the future theorizing about the presence of Erika on Rokkenjima or the Eva or Battler Culprit Theory (and since Forgery XXX is a story within Tsubasa, I believe) it IS very possible that ordinary people who want to create a scenario can very well create a Kakera where that scenario is possible. It’s really frustrating to tell, since only Umineko and Higurashi deal with Kakera (and a short part of Hotarubi).

[Isae]

It would be nice if Ryukishi could clarify the rules of Kakera, since Higurashi being a witch game really seems like an afterthought change during the course of Umineko, so we could find out whether there was a GM or not for Higurashi.

I agree.

Rika still has a child’s mind after living for so long, since she actually requires the help of the club to figure out WHY Takano would essentially throw her research away in a blaze of glory, and she does a lot of things like testing fate or just being plain stubborn in not bothering to fight Satoko’s fate in Minagoroshi until the older members convince her otherwise, since a lot of kids sulk and gripe about things when they realize things can’t always go their way, even when other possibilities exist.

Well, iirc, a person’s brain doesn’t fully develop until they’re in their twenties or so, so even though she’s lived for a hundred years, Rika’s brain would still be that of a child. That could explain some things about Bernkastel…

While not everything Hanyuu says can be trusted in Saikoroshi, I would think that maybe at least that interpretation is correct? And Rika is able to remember the timelines due to being connected to Hanyuu as her 8th generation descendant, but since there is no official answer, that’s my speculation.

Well, I don’t think it’s a bad interpretation.

I would think that is IS possible for people to create a Kakera, much like how Evatrice, Erika, and B. Battler are given forms due to the many people of the future theorizing about the presence of Erika on Rokkenjima or the Eva or Battler Culprit Theory (and since Forgery XXX is a story within Tsubasa, I believe) it IS very possible that ordinary people who want to create a scenario can very well create a Kakera where that scenario is possible. It’s really frustrating to tell, since only Umineko and Higurashi deal with Kakera (and a short part of Hotarubi).

So maybe, even if a new kakera is possible, it can’t be created until someone imagines it? I kind of like the sound of that, because it’s depressing to think that nothing new could ever be created, and also because it seems to tie into what @Keriaku was saying about how imagining possibilities is connected to them becoming reality.

However, that interpretation seems to work better with Umineko than Higurashi… Since Rika is actually living through all these possibilities and not imagining them.

[Infinite_Finite]

it IS very possible that ordinary people who want to create a scenario can very well create a Kakera where that scenario is possible

That’s pretty much what I’ve been saying in my original theory, by the way.

Maybe because witches can’t affect reality (outside of cases that involve resolving paradoxes about them), they can only create potential worlds out of existing kakeras. But real people writing fiction about Rokkenjima unintentionally created potential worlds that dissolved after some time, therefore producing kakeras (assuming it has to be brought by living people, as with Rika). And almost nobody considered Lion to be alive (keyword is almost). But does it mean then that Erika was popular version?

If we really assume it has to be written by real people, it makes some sense, regarding Higurashi (and does so perfectly for Umineko). Pretty much the only theory until the game start about Hinamizawa’s secret (apart from magical demons. Although there was theory about American foreigners that got rejected by Takano, if memory serves me right) was Takano Hifumi’s theory, so it got adopted for the game (I guess, I’ll go with witches’ game from now on for most of the cases, explaining Higurashi in magical way. Breaking the rules is a really weak point, but I may have an explanation about this in theory I mention at the end).

Rika still has a child’s mind after living for so long, since she actually requires the help of the club to figure out WHY Takano would essentially throw her research away in a blaze of glory

Does it necessarily mean the questioner is a child? I think the point was to show that friends can be of a great help, when in need.

a lot of kids sulk and gripe about things when they realize things can’t always go their way, even when other possibilities exist

It’s been stated that she’d tried hard enough, but gave up after some time, so she kept doing it unintentionally, out of habit. Having one’s will broken due to many failures doesn’t qualify one as a child.

Well, iirc, a person’s brain doesn’t fully develop until they’re in their twenties or so, so even though she’s lived for a hundred years, Rika’s brain would still be that of a child

That’s an interesting fact. But do you think Ryuukishi had this in mind when he wrote Higurashi?

It’s not that I’m against the idea, it’s just the arguments are not convincing enough for me. But that’s sort of an offtopic.

And Rika is able to remember the timelines due to being connected to Hanyuu as her 8th generation descendant, but since there is no official answer, that’s my speculation.

That’s the most common version, I believe. Still no info about others remembering their past.

I think I’ve thought up of something interesting concerning how others could have remember their past. I’ll post my theory connecting this, Bernkastel, Higurashi’s logic error, Higurashi’s gameboard, Lambdadelta and partly Umineko all at once, once I’m finished (really tight schedule ). It’s cheesy as hell, but seems legit, and there is even at least one fact in Umineko, sort of confirming it. But I must warn all of you, it’s build upon assumption that Lambda lied about not knowing the culprit, as well as not finishing “reading” Higurashi. It doesn’t use kakeras heavily (just mentions known arcs + some speculation, basically), so I’ll post it in some other thread. Don’t wanna give much of info too early~

[Isae]

That’s an interesting fact. But do you think Ryuukishi had this in mind when he wrote Higurashi?

It’s not that I’m against the idea, it’s just the arguments are not convincing enough for me. But that’s sort of an offtopic.

I was joking (although that part about the brain is true). I’m not even sure how we got on this topic…

That’s the most common version, I believe. Still no info about others remembering their past.

What do you think about the Saikoroshi-inspired interpretation?

It doesn’t use kakeras heavily (just mentions known arcs + some speculation, basically), so I’ll post it in some other thread. Don’t wanna give much of info too early~

Well, I think it would be okay if you post it here, because how the other characters remember stuff is actually the original topic of this thread. It’s up to you, though.

[Infinite_Finite]

What do you think about the Saikoroshi-inspired interpretation?

Well, I thought of including similar concept in my theory at first. But I didn’t like two moments:

1. If Hanyuu unintentionally brought memories of others along (she was unaware of that (except for Rika, of course), as seen by her reaction of seeing Keiichi remember past in Minagoroshi), why neither Takano nor Tomitake (or even Ooishi and many others) couldn’t remember anything at all?
2. It’s stated that she rewinds time, therefore those ‘mad’ events shouldn’t have happened yet.

It’s possible that Hanyuu lied about 1 and 2, but that’s another story and theory, then.

[Isae]

Well, I’m looking forward to your theory.

Edit:

In the meantime…

For what it’s worth, it’s said in Matsuribayashi that Rena’s understanding of Keiichi is what caused him to remember other worlds, which I took to mean that her actions in Onikakushi (driven by an understanding/identification with him) had a powerful enough impact on him to eventually make him remember other worlds (and that’s why he remembers Onikakushi the most clearly).

As for Rena and Shion, maybe Keiichi remembering somehow opened the doors for them to remember, because they also felt strong remorse for their actions. Then there’s Akasaka, but unlike Keiichi and the others, it looks like him remembering was deliberately caused in the metaworld. Somehow.

“Rewinding time” might just be being used in the same sense I used it earlier, that is, in the sense that Hanyuu and Rika are “going back in time” in the new fragment. But I feel like we’re getting into the question of how time works between fragments again…

[Infinite_Finite]

Hanyuu and Rika are “going back in time” in the new fragment. But I feel like we’re getting into the question of how time works between fragments again…

Well, after thinking about it once again it struck me that to “watch” kakera one probably has to send in a piece first. This would effectively explain both worlds without Rika and those “time rewinds”, because once the piece is dead one can see no longer what’s going on there.
Still, this doesn’t explain how protagonists were able to remember their past. They shouldn’t carry on their memories.

But this only works well for Higurashi and Hotarubi. I don’t remember any pieces from Lambdadelta or Bernkastel (until Erika and probably Ange) in Umineko. Also it’d literally take an infinity to find kakera with Lion.

P.S.
Got a little free time, I’ll try to write my theory in a few days (maybe sooner).

[Keriaku]

I’m gonna apologize in advance because there’s a ton to reply to, this might get split up into multiple messages.

Since even witches can’t alternate the final truth, but are able to see another possibilites (as seen with Umineko’s cat box)

I’m curious where you’re getting this assumption from. I know Umineko did a lot of focus on the reveal of the ‘one truth’ from Eva’s Diary, but I don’t think this means that there’s some final truth that’s set in stone. How I understand this situation is that it’s more about public opinion and one truth being elevated to the level of ‘accepted truth’ and thus may as well be something equivalent to the red truth for the masses (creating a situation where it would be incredible hard to argue others as being equally viable). That’s why at the same time there was so much focus on the big conference Hachijo was collecting to reveal the truth as well.

Hmm, I was wondering, how does time work with these kakeras? Like, if Rika’s been at it for a hundred years, does that mean a hundred years have passed in her original world?

This is also a point I see potentially causing a lot of confusion in the ensuing discussion. I’d say that we shouldn’t be mixing ‘kakera-time’ and ‘meta-time’, as they occur on different planes of existence. From the perspective of the meta-world, a kakera is an object. I’d say it’s similar to what a video game world is to us. I’d agree with what is later brought up, in that from the perspective of a meta-observer, these worlds are simply suspended. I don’t think there’s any need to blur the timelines between the two planes.

Well, in Minagoroshi’s prologue, Frederica says that there were many other worlds besides the ones we’re familiar with, but they gradually dissolved into the darkness and disappeared.

In regards to this, I’d say this line is a more subjective one. To Frederica, who has been around for so long, she no longer remembers the worlds she’s previously experienced, since it’s been so long. And remember that Frederica is initially alone in this world without any idea how it works. During the events of Higurashi, I doubt she had the know-how about the Sea of Fragments or how any of it worked (which she later has mastery of in Umineko). So it’d make sense that over time, from her perspective, past worlds would simply ‘fade away’. I think it’s fair to say that it takes a significant amount of experience in this world before you can even conceptualize these worlds in the form of kakera. In the beginning I wouldn’t be surprised if every world was experienced as a simple stream of experience, of life and death.

(Side note, I’m gonna start using ‘Frederica’ to refer to Bernkastel during the events of Higurashi and ‘Bernkastel’ to refer to her during the events of Umineko.)

In the epilogue of Minagoroshi, Frederica says she made a kakera where Rika wins against Takano, but she isn’t going to show the reader because the kakera Rika is going to create will “shine much brighter.” Why is the kakera Rika creates being treated as more “real” than the one Frederica created? Could this be thought of as evidence that there is one “true world”?

Again, I haven’t fully read Minaoroshi-hen, only watched the anime. But from my knowledge of WTC, how I’d read this is probably Frederica, drawing from her ‘cruel’ Bernkastel tendencies, could probably create a brute force solution (such as Rika simply going on a murder spree of some kind) but it wouldn’t be the real happy solution Rika is looking for. I wouldn’t read into this as being ‘more or less real’, rather ‘more or less desirable’.

Anyway, I think so far we can pretty much all agree that kakeras represent possibilities. To me, the problem seems to be the question of ‘What determines what’s possible?’ For example, apparently there were no kakera where Takano decided not to kill Rika. Why not? It’s certainly not physically impossible for Takano to decide not to go through with it.

@Keriaku I’d be interested in your thoughts on this.

Edit: I think part of the problem is that Ryukishi seems to want to have it both ways; he wants the metaworld to contain infinite possibilities, but he’s also intrigued by the idea of an ‘inescapable fate.’ (We see this with both Rika and Beatrice.)

I think the answer to this lies in what I said above. Rika’s goal isn’t only to survive, but to have a happy future. This happy future can’t be obtained if anyone becomes a murderer. I think this idea of [infinite possibilities] being limited by an [inescapable fate] is an interesting bridge, because it shows how ‘possibilities’ are limited by the things humans want. This is similar to Beatrice. Of course many possible futures existed, but none of them were able to be reconciled with the complex inner workings of what Beatrice needed. There was no way for Beatrice (as a complete person) to be happy. Thus, she was bound by an inescapable fate, where her persona was bound to be splintered and her expansive worldview reduced to what is ‘objectively accepted’. This is why she inevitably chose the creation of the catbox as her goal, because it was the only path where she was able to most realize her ideals, without having to reduce herself to anything.

(I’m gonna post now so I don’t potentially lose what I’ve written so far)