This particularly wonderful thread made me remember a certain topic I used to ponder during my first re-read of Umineko. Basically it was about how Sayo represented each member of the Ushiromiya family as a whole. And by represent I mean how Sayo is similar to, contrasts with, and identifies with the struggles her family members go through.
Personally, I find that Sayo embodies every facet that makes up this incredibly messed up family, so I was wondering what you guys think the sort of dilemmas the members of the Ushiromiya family went through and how Sayo relates back to them.
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Um, I’m not following you, Pandora… What do you mean, how does say reflect or contrast with the Ushiromiya family? You mean her foils and shadows and such? Can you elaborate more or post your own thoughts on the topic please, so that I have a clearer understanding of what you’re meaning to say?
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What I mean is basically her foils and shadows. Pretty much how she juxtaposes with the rest of the cast
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Don’t forget the EP6/8 messages about the family that is presented in EP1-5.
About your original post, I think Yasu foils the past/present struggles of some of the women (Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Ange), but none of the men particularly (although Umineko spends little time on the struggles of every man but Krauss).
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Too be fair there’s only a handful of male characters, and one of them resembles Sayo very much!!! (Sometimes you inherit more from dad than big bombs and ten tons of gold.)
On the foils...
I don’t think foil is the right word being used here. Characters resembling other characters doesn’t necessarily make them a foil. Foils are typically characters who have opposing personalities but parallel character arcs. It’s more about the journey, you know?
I don’t think other characters in Umineko are foils to Sayo besides Maria and Ange. They are all characters who learn magic for the same reason but have different fates because of their choices. Maria is a foil that doesn’t get to mature. Beatrice(Sayo) and Ange are direct foils. This is explored most clearly in the manga, but there are still overt parallels in the VN just not in the same way.
But, as I said, a character can still resemble another character without being a foil. There are also many, many characters explored in Umineko just so we can understand Sayo better. I mean, that’s the point of the game, isn’t it?
Jessica- Jessica was used as a base for Beatrice’s tomboyish personality, so I think that’s a clear reflection and a big hint as to the nature of the witch!
Rosa- Rosa and Sayo have a very interesting relationship. Even though the black/white witch concept mostly applies to Rosa only, Rosa is an example of how a person can have more than one side to them no matter how opposing.
Natsuhi- Both women use magic as a form of escapism. Specifically, they create power fantasies to escape their sad and painful reality. If she weren’t so weighed down by societal expectations, I wonder if Natsuhi would even imagine herself as family head… she seems to be rather egotistical in the way she imagines Father and Beato. (like mother, like daughter)
Kinzo- Battler and Kinzo are obvious foils. There are overt parallels between them in the story, and they mirror each other almost exactly, the key difference being, Battler isn’t weighed down by the sin of greed that discolors everything Kinzo does.
BUT, this thread isn’t about Battler, it’s about Sayo.
Unlike other characters I listed, I’m not sure if the similarities were intentional, but they certainly are there. Sayo’s relationship with Kinzo is seriously messed up, so I wouldn’t be surprised, honestly, if one could argue she picked up some of his methods intentionally.
In the noble families of witches, family secrets are often inherited by a single child to prevent the propagation of hidden arts and the decline of quality. It is the same with the Endless Witches, where the greatest hidden art goes to a single child, so that the hidden art does not propagate even after the retirement following the inheritance.
— An Episode 3 Tip
From a mystery perspective, this is about Sayo inheriting roulette, golden, and endless magic from Kinzo. Endless and Golden magic refers to his ability to create limitless wealth. Roulette magic was the means for him to obtain that wealth by betting against astronomical odds.
The connection between Kinzo and Sayo regarding magic are pretty obvious… considering it was Kinzo who influenced the island’s interest in the witch and the occult. But, what is most important to me is the line which states that the “art” won’t spread after the passing of the headship. Sayo assumed she would be the last Ushiromiya Head. When she died, the art would be gone. Sayo saw herself as the only child to inherit Kinzo’s magical talents.
Roulette magic-- Kinzo and Sayo participate in high-risk games of chance. The desired outcome is always twisted and selfish.
Golden magic-- Kinzo and Sayo use gold as a source of power and control.
Endless magic/ Endless realization-- For different reasons. Kinzo creates infinite wealth. Beatrice creates infinite catbox scenarios.
I see Sayo as a very manipulative and selfish person. She definitely shares Kinzo’s possessive nature, especially regarding their approach to love. Neither can let their loved ones go, and they are willing to use “magic” to be with them forever. Sayo noticed these parallels, and I think it’s ultimately what pushed her over the edge. She was committing some of the sins that Kinzo had committed.
I thought this was an interesting proposition to make! I wonder what other people think about the similarities between Kinzo and Sayo, mostly because it’s not one often discussed. Does anyone else feel like this comparison is warranted?
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This comparison is certainty warranted as aside from Battler-Sayo is the person who most strongly resembles Kinzo. Everything that Sayo does could be mirrored almost perfectly in Kinzo and how he conducted himself throughout life.
I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Kinzo and Sayo’s roles were reversed he would do the exact same thing she did.
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To me, I feel like its less like she was made to be a representative of all the Ushiromiya family members, but how the family and servants around her affected her as a whole and how she developed around them.
The theme of isolation on an island is strong in this. She never really knew about the world outside aside from her family and the other servants, and what she learned was with a more narrow worldview. Add that with the material wealth of the island, the occultic and magical overtones, and different way of living (than for example in a usual Japanese town or city, going to school, etc) really impacted her development and worldview, and her family and the servants were the only ones she could look too as a sort of guidance/influence.
I feel like the vibes we get from that isn’t that she was written as a representative of them all but that she grew around them all and a majority of her self is a result of all their influence in a relatively closed world on Rokkenjima.
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