BGM tho ;-;
Oh crap completely forgot to say that EP4 is my favourite episode.
True, but… it’s so much faster! XD
1 Like
The manga is, after all, how I got into Umineko.
As much deserved criticism that Episode 4 gets, I hope that few will deny that it has some of the best moments in the series.
Another ‘unpopular’ one, or at least one that might be cause enough to start a ship-war. It’s of course about Beatrice:
I’m thinking that Kanon might very well be her healthiest character. My reasoning always was that with him at least she is able to carry a bit of her self-loathing and confidence-issues to the outside instead of constantly bottling them up. And Jessica is actually very willing to help him overcome them.
That’s obviously not the case with Shannon, where even before I learned about Yasu I always assumed that nobody can act so demure all the time and that even if the Rokkenjima thing would have ended fine, she would inevitably explode in the future and murder everyone simply out of frustration… In any case, Shannon never shares her issues and since George is so unaware, we can only make random guesses at how he would react.
It is also not the case with Beatrice. She might be portrayed as the one closest to the true Yasu in Tohya’s episodes, but in the early ones I always had the impression that Yasu projects all her self-loathing onto her when she portrays Beatrice as the evil witch toying with everyone’s emotions out of malicious whims. That’s not really a basis from which she and Battler could ever work themselves back to reality.
I’m just thinking here that, if Yasu would have ever given Kanon and Jessica a chance, there would have been a chance for them to work through Yasu’s issues bit by bit. At least Jessica is aware that there are severe problems and even though they both are constantly questioning their relationship, it could easily lead to an ending in which Yasu could shake off some of her baggage.
6 Likes
Should start a shipping thread to investigate this
I don’t know if I’d call Kanon her healthiest character, but in a way, I think he’s the most “human” of her personas, for lack of a better word. In Ep2 in particular, Shannon’s “fight” against the witch is basically just rolling over and letting things happen as they will (i.e. letting the bomb go off), while Kanon’s the one who rejects it. Shannon proclaims more than once that she “no longer has any regrets,” Kanon is the one who hesitates - because he’s the part of her that’s painfully aware of what she’s really doing.
Having said that, I don’t really think it’s right to say that she “never shares her issues” with George as such; she does drop him hints from time to time (e.g. early Ep2, when she insists that their relationship is because of “magic”). In a way, all three of the cousins give her the “wrong answer” to her questions - George shrugs off Shannon’s concerns and just goes along with the whole “furniture” thing, Jessica comes up with her own definition of “furniture” (that I think a lot of readers did as well, even if the narrative is busy making a distinction between “furniture” and “servant”) and queries Kanon based on that, and Battler is too absorbed in his “Hero vs. Evil Witch” mindset (through the question arcs) to pay enough attention to the woman in front of him and how he feels about her.
…I think I got sidetracked somewhere here. Uh, oops. ^^;
3 Likes
i bet i could take any of the humans in a fight, no weapons, just fists
3 Likes
Well… if it were so easy to come to the right conclusions from just those little tidbits of weird phrasing Shannon occasionally drops, we wouldn’t have need of an 8 episodes Visual Novel to understand Yasu, do we? I’m not denying anything you say, but while it is true that none of the cousins has been anywhere close to the truth, there is a difference in being wrong because you shrug it off and being wrong because don’t know the whole picture.
You are right that Jessica applies her own read on Kanon’s issues, but she can’t read minds and is just trying to do her best to understand him from what she is able to see. She tries in a way none of the other cousins does and that has in large part something to do with Yasu allowing Kanon to express her pain and frustration, creating an opening that very well could have been used to help her.
Also interesting musings about him being the most ‘human’ character. And here I am not just thinking about him getting to express Yasu’s doubts and regrets about her deeds. You made me think about their ‘origin stories’ as well and how it makes a stunning amount of sense in regards to how he behaves. Because we do know that there is a lot of idealization in play regarding Shannon and Beatrice, given that Shannon was created as the ‘ideal’ stereotypical maid and Beatrice both had to absorb the legend of the witch and fitting child Battler’s description of what he likes in a woman. In contrast to those two, Kanon’s ‘origin’ basically amounts to “Fine, let’s try out living as a boy for a change and see what happens.” He is still just a character instead of the actual Yasu, but seen from this perspective, it is possible to assume that the real Yasu has it somewhat more easy to shine through given the less restricting script.
2 Likes
I mean, it’s not so much reaching the right conclusions that I’m thinking so much as it is just talking with her about it on her own terms. Hopefully this makes sense…
What I’m trying to say is that neither George nor Jessica (nor Battler, albeit with “witches” instead of “furniture”) allow Yasu to “define” her “language” to them - they’ve already got definitions in mind, and interact with her based on that. From what I recall (in Ep2 at least, and so far in Ep6 - I’m a bit past halfway in my reread), Jessica doesn’t ask Kanon what being “furniture” means to him as much as she works off the assumption that it’s “being a servant” - which is pretty much what George does with Shannon. I understand what you’re driving at, but I guess the situations don’t seem that much different in my mind - Jessica’s just vocal about it, while George probably keeps it mostly internal (I wouldn’t be surprised if he and Shannon had a somewhat similar, if less emotionally charged, conversation in the past).
As for Shannon/Kanon/Beato’s origin stories, that’s a good point! I hadn’t actually thought about that. Given the emphasis that’s placed on the three of them having an equal chance at winning in Ep6’s love trial, I think it’s safe to say that all three of them allowed her to “be herself” in different ways - it’s just that Kanon ended up being the one shouldering most of her negative emotions. It’s still fascinating to me to see how all three of them are “still her,” just with different aspects stripped away.
1 Like
None of the cousins should be blamed for not understanding Sayo. It is Sayo’s fault for being unable to properly communicate her emotions, and I’m always surprised when I see people acting like Jessica/Battler/George should have somehow been able to see through Sayo’s feelings and understand that something was wrong. They’re not mind readers, they’re humans.
7 Likes
Umineko spoilers:
Blatantly saying one thing and meaning something else in the narration before making it clear to the readers that you may or may not do so is not an okay thing to do.
(Apologies in advance if I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say here - this is my read of it, correct me if I’m wrong)
I understand where you’re coming from, but I feel the exact opposite - I don’t understand how someone can look at the kind of baggage Yasu is carrying and put the blame on her alone. Some of her problems are things people have trouble accepting today, let alone 30-odd years ago - it’s completely understandable to me that she’d be too terrified to come clean about it. On top of that, she’s someone who’s been trampled over and had her voice and feelings invalidated for her whole life - she’s crying out for help in the only way she knows how to (and while I can’t speak for anyone else, as someone who’s suffered from severe depression, it feels incredibly genuine to me - just another one of those things I adore about Ryukishi’s writing). I’m not saying she’s blameless - ultimately, the decision to use the bomb and start spinning her roulette is squarely on her shoulders. The point is, everyone else played their own part in letting the situation develop to that point to begin with, and that includes the cousins.
When it comes to the cousins - Jessica does ping onto the fact that Kanon has some deep-seated self-esteem issues for sure, and I give her credit for that (even if she doesn’t approach him on his own terms). From a Rokkenjima Prime perspective, Battler’s got the excuse of being absent for six years and not having any idea how things have been in the interim. I’m not saying this just to rag on him, but George? I think he absolutely should’ve noticed something was wrong - his girlfriend (or the girl he was crushing on - admittedly I’ve kinda forgotten the timeline when it comes to the two of them getting together) developed such a serious self-esteem problem that she started calling herself subhuman. I’d argue that the same goes for Jessica, seeing as she thinks of Shannon as her “best friend,” but from what I recall we never really see “furniture” come up between the two of them, so it’s a bit less clear.
Battler in the Meta-World sorta does this indirectly, for that matter - for the first two and a half episodes, he’s (understandably, mind) clinging to his vision of the family as “good people” who would never hurt anyone, and to his “narrative” of being the hero standing up to the evil witch, that he doesn’t - can’t - accept anything indicating otherwise. In doing so, he ends up rejecting a lot of what Yasu is trying to tell him about her heart (e.g. dismissing Beatrice II’s backstory in Ep3).
I feel the need to clarify - I don’t blame any of them for not figuring out what was tormenting Yasu on their own, because that would’ve been a monumental task; I blame them for not picking up that something was wrong and approaching her on her own terms about it. They may not be mind readers, but neither is Yasu - she had no way of knowing how they’d react to her if she came clean about everything, so she tried probing them about it in the only way she knew how, and the “answers” she got were not encouraging.
3 Likes
I’m not entirely clear on how I feel about it, but in my opinion it’s on Sayo to take the first step. If help is needed, help should be sought out. Sayo waited for years for someone to understand her, help her and take her away from the island, but she never took the first step needed. It is my belief that her impassiveness is one of the main thing preventing her from escaping her fate, and in the manga she admits as much (although the manga also agrees with what you said, that her friends should have noticed something was deeply wrong). She did not leave the island on her own to pursuit Battler when he didn’t come back. She did not explain to her loved ones the mounting issues she was facing. She did nothing with the power she earned from solving the epitaph. She did not let go of her feelings for any of the cousins or otherwise communicate to any of them. She allowed the massacre to occur without any input or resistance. She refused to live a life outside the island in fear of the truth of her body coming to light (at least the manga portrayed it as such. I hear Ryukishi said something different). For six years she waited for someone to come and avoided any change that may buckle what little she had. Tragically, though hardly unexpectedly, no one came and nothing changed. Her coming clean to George, I believe, would eventually turn her toward a much better future. Similarly, after she explained her situation to Battler in plain words, she was perhaps the happiest she had ever been throughout all eight episodes. Personally, I do not believe it is correct to put this on the cousins. Maybe they should have seen something. Maybe they were too focused on their own problems (though I do think this is an incredibly selfish view to take, no matter how trivial their problems may be in comparison). But I believe that if one does not try to achieve change, one should not expect it.
5 Likes
Out of Sayo’s personas, Kanon was the one who showed the most worrying behavior, and Jessica did her best to support Kanon before Kanon rejected Jessica in the worst possible way (he didn’t even give Jessica a chance to confess, but immediately said he knew she liked him and said it wouldn’t happen). Shannon showed barely any such signs and appeared as a complete contrast to Kanon. How is George supposed to notice that something is wrong with Shannon when she never appears to be upset or unhappy when she’s with him? This just bring me back to my ‘they’re not mind readers’ line because they have no way of knowing what is going through Sayo’s head.
Again, Sayo didn’t have to instantly tell them the truth, but perhaps she could have dropped more obvious hints before George, such as, I don’t know, showing a visible feeling of discomfort whenever George talked about having children or whatever? Frustration or worry over them getting married?
The fact that Sayo had basically dropped all of her negative emotions on her Kanon persona made Shannon less riddled with such negative emotions. So of course George had no way of knowing about Shannon/Sayo’s complex or her worries because she never acted like Kanon and displayed noticeably worrying behavior.
And speaking of dropping hints, all of the cousins made it incredibly clear by their words or actions that they really care about Sayo (at least George and Jessica did), George going as far to tell Sayo ‘thank you for being born’ (at least in the manga). However, even after that, Sayo still didn’t have enough confidence to tell him the truth which leads me to believe that no amount of questioning from the cousins would have forced her to say anything. In Sayo’s mind, she would have been rejected, so a confession like that was never going to happen.
1 Like
To be fair, in the manga, George, by his own admission, noticed something was wrong with Sayo and ignored it. That’s the chapter after Confession. It is unknown whether this counts as an intentional hint by Sayo though, and to be honest I don’t think giving out hints can really substitute for communication. The same chapter acknowledged both views I think. Sayo admitted that she refused to look for a way out and George and Jessica admitted that they could have done more to help her (and at least in George case, not actively ignore the hints that something was wrong).
3 Likes
To be honest, those are the scenes in Golden Land, that is, the fantasy world. It doesn’t really change the fact that Sayo’s ‘cries for help’ when it comes to Shannon were incredibly vague and not even remotely concerning when compared to Kanon’s (and Jessica did at least try).
And I repeat, even after George told her something like ‘thank you for being born’, she still refused to believe he would accept her. Not only does it show Sayo’s lack of self-esteem, but also incredible an lack of faith in George who’s been nothing but a sweetheart to her the entire time.
I feel like people sometimes cut Sayo too much slack. Like yes, she has a crappy background, and I know why she did what she did, but a lot of her actions are incredibly questionable and other people shouldn’t bear the blame for her own insecurities. If people constantly tell you they appreciate you, and that they care about you, and you STILL don’t trust them, then really, who is the one at fault? Sayo had every opportunity to open herself up to people who let her know they appreciate her no matter what, and still didn’t take it.
Ultimately, it is Sayo’s fault for resorting to unhealthy behavior.
Like, I could understand if Jessica or George gave Sayo a reason to believe her true self would be unwanted, but that never happened. It was all in Sayo’s head.
4 Likes
In addition to all this, don’t forget one thing: If we know one thing about Yasu, then it is that she is a terrific actress to keep this charade going for so long and that she regards her personas less as aspects of herself, but more as characters she has to play in order to please the people around her (or at least that’s her main objective when she’s Shannon, like I said before, Kanon has more leeway). And in any case, she never breaks character. If she phrases things oddly in a way that could be taken as a hint, then she does so always in a way that is in-character for whomever she currently acts as.
Knowing that, I find it very difficult to blame George for anything. There are two reason: First, we get to know the two of them at a time where they are already a couple and second, never forget that the entirety of Umineko is a work of in-universe fiction that is subject to the bias of the writers. When just looking at the first two episodes, George isn’t portrayed in a very flattering light. He tends to play the class card to make Shannon do things she is reluctant to do and even in his proposals he is forceful and proudly displays his entitlement. Yasu obviously has a very cynical view on him and the way the narrative emphasizes what an awesome dude he is kinda sounds like mockery when contrasted to the way he speaks. This leads me to think that even though the later episodes claim that she does have feelings for him, Yasu herself might just go out with him because she thinks that is something Shannon would do. Because in her mind, Shannon is a different entity than herself. And take everything that is stated later on with a grain of salt, because Tohya knows virtually nothing about how they got together and tends to portray everyone in the best possible light.
This long ass rant was necessary for my next point: What if George would have straight up asked her what’s bothering her? Since we don’t know how they got together, it may be very well possible that he did. And here comes Yasu’s crippling turtle tactic into play: Because she never breaks character, she cannot allow Shannon to talk about things concerning Yasu’s state of mind. Therefore even if he did ask, I am 100% sure that Shannon would just assure him that everything’s fine, if she didn’t even already do that sometime before the story begins.
This kinda reminds me of a different story with a far better adjusted character who did the same thing… Any Sense8-fans here? In a way, Yasu’s fear of rejection and of not being understood that leads her to totally deny herself when interacting with others is somewhat similar to Kala’s storyline there. Kala is obsessed with pleasing the expectations of everyone around her and somehow slithers into an engagement with that absolutely awesome guy Rajan, who has fallen totally for her, is super attentive, extremely fun and not to mention filthy rich, but she doesn’t really love him and just keeps the charade going because she wants to please him and her parents. At several times in the story he does notice that she is clearly uncomfortable with what he’s doing for her and flat out asks her, again and again, going even as far as suggesting to break up, but she always assures him that she’s happy and everything is fine and that he has no reason to worry and along those lines she pretty much trains him to overlook all the glaring signs that something is wrong. Why does she do that? Because she’s extremely afraid of this house of cardboards breaking down, she is afraid of the change, of the disappointment and of course of how people will react!
And that’s fucking Shannon! Down to the letter! That’s why I am so cynical to believe that even if outright asked, Yasu would never just tear down her walls, but instead hide behind them, like always. Keeping the charade going, like always. George may have been not as flawless a guy as Rajan in how he dealt with the signs, but even if he did act upon them, it is doubtful that it would have changed much. Heck, it is very likely that he did and Shannon simply trained him to overlook everything, similarly to what Kala does in Sense8.
4 Likes
I guess my most unpopular opinion would be (Full Higurashi spoilers) I have nothing against the syndrome being behind it all, I find it pretty well thought, absolutely not deus ex machina and even believable (for the most part), plus it brings on the table really interesting topics tackled in the beginning of EP8 about scientific research and what we are ready to accept or not, and I love that part, it’s such a bold move from Ryûkishi. Really, I can understand why some complain about it, but for me it just works and I don’t know what kind of explanation people expected after all the seemingly impossible events of the story that could be closer to something that could happen in reality. And I believe the general idea behind it could definitely be found, even if there are not clues to everything like in Umineko. It’s just that the setting of Higurashi is more in a ‘flawed’ reality than in a reality that happens to fit the codes of an intented genre.
5 Likes
I guess this opinion is really unpopular but, I Like Leo more than Battler.
1 Like