To get people into the When They Cry series, what order do you recommend them in?

07th Discussion
#1
  • Higurashi first, then Umineko
  • Umineko first, then Higurashi

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I’ve been thinking about this a lot as I’ve been trying to get more people into When They Cry for a while now. Do you introduce them to the series through Higurashi, or Umineko? What if you think they’ll probably enjoy one more than the other?

There is of course also the conflict of Umineko just being really hard to get a hold of legally at the moment, and Higurashi being right in the middle of its rerelease, which arguably makes it way easier to get someone into Higurashi than Umineko. So… what order would you recommend then in?

Tag spoilers, please.

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#2

I feel like the mystery aspect of Umineko has evolved a lot from Higurashi. Like, it’s a step up in complexity. That, and Umineko makes quite a few references that can only be appreciated after reading Higurashi first. So I’d say Higurashi first.

That said, I know there are quite a few people who would like Umineko but not Higurashi, and vice versa, so I recommend them depending on the person.

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#3

Personally, reading Higurashi first and greatly disliking it made me hesitant to try Umineko.

Some of my greatest fears include isolation, rusty metal (after hearing a story as a child involving someone nearly dying of blood poisoning; it was meant to be exciting, but just managed to scare me), and needles. Higurashi managed to, in Episode 1, get under my skin with all of these.

This is obviously intentional. By scaring me with a flurry of increasingly terrifying situations, Higurashi wants me to connect with Keiichi through a shared emotion - fear. The more powerful this emotion, the stronger the bond between the reader and the character they’re experiencing it through.

It’s the same principe often used by romantic works; by making you care about a character as if they were real, the impact of the story becomes so much greater. Tragedies happening to a character you care about makes you sad, and when they finally achieve happiness, you feel happy as well. If you didn’t connect to the characters in the story, this wouldn’t work.

Unfortunately, in my case, I get far too deep into these works. I don’t just enjoy the tingle of fear some people feel as Keiichi gets pursued by someone he thought of as a friend, now seeking to murder him for reasons he doesn’t understand, with nowhere to go and nobody to call for help. I get terrified, and I feel physically ill from immersing myself far too deep into this situation.

I was worried that Umineko would be the same, hence why it ended up on my backlog for over five years. Fortunately, I was wrong; Umineko doesn’t try to scare me, it challenges me to solve a seemingly impossible mystery. It’s a detective novel, where the “detective” is incredibly confused and won’t just explain how the murderer did it at the end… because by then, he’s already become one of the victims. It’s up to the reader to try to make sense of the clues and figure it out for themselves. That, I can get behind.

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#4

I think Higurashi is the better starter of the two. The duality of the meta and the real world in Umineko seems like it would be easier to understand after having gone through Higurashi. Plus the call outs to Higurashi in Umineko don’t work as well in reverse.

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#5

I’d say Higurashi first as well, even though I haven’t read Umineko yet. I prefer reading series chronologically if possible. Newer series tend to make references to older series… (as others pointed out above) plus it’s just fun to see the writer’s skill and method evolve as you read on.

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#6

I generally recommend Umineko. It’s hard enough trying to get someone to read a mammoth story like Umineko, but telling them to read a marginally related, and more amateurishly written mammoth story beforhand would make it impossible. If I had to bet on one of the two to get them hooked on Ryukishi I am going to bet on Umineko. However if someone is clearly willing to read both then I will tell them to start with Higurashi.

That said, I have taken to recommending Rose Gun Days instead recently. Not only does it have broader appeal and require a lot less personal investment, but it’s also tragically under read. It’s got enough of Ryukishi’s style in it for people to decide whether or not they would be interested in his other works.

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#7

If I knew I could only get them to check one of the series out I would go with Umineko as the suggestion as well, just because it is a much tighter story. But Higurashi is still a dear love of mine and I would do my best to sell it.

I think with the VNs having the kind of episodic story format helps curb some of the feeling of length. And I would even suggest the Higurashi anime as a kind of crash course or something, and then tell them to read Umineko, because then they would at least get most of the Higurashi nods.

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#8

I’ve done exactly that once before. It’s a much easier sell than two massive VNs (especially for non-VN readers) and while the Higurashi anime is inferior to the VN, it’s at least a well respected show, unlike Umineko’s anime.

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#9

I definitely think Higurashi before Umineko. I remember when I first found Higurashi, I immediately fell in love with the simple concept of Ryukishi07, and how he could write such a great story, with so many layers, so many angles, so much raw human emotion. In my eyes, it was perfect. Years later when I found Umineko I was so psyched. I thought cool, even more Ryukishi07. But what I found wasn’t simply “more” but was in fact almost like a Higurashi 2.0 in the sense that it had a similar concept, but highly polished. I was amazed. How could Ryukishi07 take such a good concept, make it even better, AND link the two stories together through a meta universe? He was like god to me for accomplishing that. Precisely because I experienced them in those order was I able to appreciate them both fully. Higurashi in its own wonderful small town mystery, and Umineko in its elaborate high society island mystery. If you started off with Umineko first, looking at Higurashi afterwards might make it seem “amateurish” as some say, in retrospect. However I think enjoying Higurashi in its fullest first leads to a better Umineko experience afterwards.

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#10

The mystery aspect of Higurashi is certainly “amateurish” compared to Umineko, but I don’t see how the story aspect is inferior.

…Also, this isn’t specifically directed at you, but I think it’s a bit unfair to compare the VNs of the two series when at the moment a decent translation doesn’t even exist for Higurashi (other than the first two arcs).

#11

I generally recommend Higurashi first because it’s generally easier to get a hold of than Umineko in terms of acquiring it, since Higurashi’s English novels are all released, and it has the first two stories on Steam, with Onikakushi-hen being free to read on iTunes (and it’s fun to watch people’s misconceptions of the series change). I recommend to my friends who do read Umineko to tell me how it’s going because it’s generally more difficult in degrees than Higurashi, and I can explain things better to them while Higurashi is fairly straightforward and has clues that are very easy to find, as you can figure out the true culprit with just the first three stories if you pay attention, while in Umineko, the clues are hidden better.

#12

I think it makes more sense to read Higurashi first. I’m not sure how other people felt about it, but a large part of the Umineko experience for me was how Ryukishi07 subverted and twisted almost every concept from Higurashi. Umineko is like a deconstruction of Higurashi in many ways, which you’ll miss entirely if you don’t read them in order. Many times solutions which worked in Higurashi are torn asunder, constantly forcing the reader to challenge everything they think they know about the story. Believing in your friends is the answer for Keiichi (and to some extent it’s the emotional answer for the reader) in Higurashi, and Umineko addresses the question: what happens when that doesn’t work?

I’m sure Umineko holds up on its own even if you haven’t read Higurashi, but you’ll definitely be missing a lot.

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#13

I too think that it would be best to go into Higurashi first. It’s what first made Ryukishi successful. I would have loved to have read the Higurashi VN first, but the anime got me interested in the franchise as a whole. It was a great experience at first, but reading the VN and looking back at the anime changed my opinion really. Though the anime still has a special place in my heart.

Reading Umineko while also understanding the Higurashi references made the experience worthwhile. It would still be good as a standalone yes, but the references would just fly by really.

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#14

Oddly enough, I just go with what I think people would like best. I know a lot of people who tried to watch/read Higurashi, but didn’t like it, so I recommended Umineko as a standalone and they’ve liked it just fine. Inversely I recommend Higurashi to people I don’t think would like Umineko.

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#15

It really depends on the tastes of the person. I’d recommend Higurashi first to anyone, because of how Umineko from the getgo starts building upon your expectations of what the game will be as a pseudo-sequel to Higurashi, but I also understand that not a lot of people are going to be down to go through the more slice of life sections of that series, so for people who really can’t handle that type of stuff, I guess I’d tell them to go ahead and try out Umineko.

That being said, though, one thing I often tell people when trying to get through Higurashi is that they should at least make it to the end of the first episode before dropping it. Usually by the end of that harrowing experience, they understand that the game is more than just the slice of life portions and are more willing to give the rest of it a shot. The same thing applies with Umineko, but more because it has a very slow beginning rather than it having a bunch of silly slice of life kinda stuff.

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#16

Higurashi without a doubt. Sometimes I feel that Umineko should come with a “warning label” on its cover… I swear to Oyashiro-sama…

Umineko is meant for a crowd who is already familiar with the series, someone who came back for seconds. If you read Umineko first you might expect Higurashi to be something that is not. However, if
you read Higurashi first, you might be pleasantly (?) surprised that Umineko is somewhat similar but quite different to what you’ve already experienced.

But that aside, Higurashi screams the game is meant to be read first- the old village, the writing, the art… It just feels right to read it first. The 2nd game, Umineko, was made assuming the reader was somewhat familiar with the first game, otherwise many of the references would not be included or be significant to the story. That’s important because there are many things that you won’t catch or appreciate unless you read the series in the order they were released. Not totally mandatory but highly recommended.

The details may be small but they are part of the experience and they are details the author meant for the reader to catch, in turn appreciate. Missing them feels like not getting “the full experience”. Personally, I want to see and experience the author’s vision as closely as possible. Reason why I often play a game or read any story in the order they were originally released whenever possible.

While Umineko does more than a couple of things better, the Higurashi experience is unique and what it provides ought to be experienced first before plunging into the world of the seagulls in my opinion. I know, the whole bit about a certain cat-witch, the obscure, and neat references all over the story would’ve been lost on me otherwise.

Finally, after fully reading Umineko you might not look at the whole series (or other mystery series for that matter) the same way ever again… something like that will not happen with Higurashi, at least to that degree.

So Higurashi first unless it is really not their cup of tea after the 1st EP.

Also let’s follow The Evolution of When they Cry.
Cicadas -> Seagulls -> ?

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#17

Yes. Umineko kind of spoils Higurashi, while Higurashi enhances Umineko.

->My bet is on macaques. Going from bird to mammal makes sense, their noises are terribly annoying, and they are kind of innately creepy.

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#18

Those monkeys are terrifying, especially in a forest, at night, as dozens of angry eyes draw near
to the beat of Executioner.

Much like witches they are known to engage in massive shenanigans as well, but mainly for taking over hot springs and stealing your stuff because they can. Cicadas were loud and really good at lying on their backs.

The Higurashi anime can also be a good way to get them into the series like others mentioned. Flawed, but it does show you a side (of the many) of the series despite how it emphasizes some aspects more than others. I know it got me into the series before checking out the VN.

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#19

Another thing I do when getting people into Umineko is that (purists will hate me for this, but honestly, it’s probably the only way some people will ever actually read the series) I recommend that people skip to EP3, because they hear about magic and witches, but those don’t come in until EP3. Then after they finish EP5, I’d recommend they go back and look at the first two games since there are a lot of clues in there that EP5 gives a good idea on how to examine properly. It also probably helps that EP3 works as a starter guide to understanding the core of Umineko.

And even though people don’t like the new sprites, if they really aren’t fond of Ryukishi’s um, hands, he draws, I’d tell them to wait for the Steam translations. And pick up the manga if they can so they know what to expect (because if they have a problem with the Ryukishi sprites, they’ll be appalled by the anime art).

#20

in the past, i’ve always told people to read higurashi first, because i feel that the numerous references to the series in umineko make the series more enjoyable.

it also depends on the person though. i just started having one of my friends read higurashi because i know she loves magic and witches and i can definitely tell she’ll love umineko. but i want her to be able to understand the little pointers to higurashi as well.

for some other friends, i’ve just had them read or watch higurashi because they’re more into the murder-mystery ‘whodunnit’ aspect and don’t really care much for magic.

i would agree, however, that starting umineko first and then going to higurashi kind of makes higurashi pale in comparison, although the series itself is absolutely remarkable. i think it’s best to go chronologically.