Ohoh So I see that you’ve accepted the witch huh? Interesting. I’ll be interested to see your thoughts on episode 2 then.
You say that early on you were leaning towards Battler’s side and thinking that there was no magic used. Could you possibly tell us if you thought of any theories or ways that a human could have done the killing without the need for magic tricks. I’m really interested to see what you might have to say about this.
Hmm… early on with like the storehouse and with Kinzo escaping the room and such there were fairly plausible explanations for how it could have been done by humans presented within the story but as it went on with Eva and Hideyoshi and basically everything after that it gets harder to come up with any reasonable way for them to have been done by humans. What really sealed it for me was the brief perspective shift to Natsuhi when she died, which, although it could be a case of an unreliable narrator, basically was the point at which I was fully convinced. I’ll definitely be interested to see what happens in episode 2, I’m planning on at least starting in a few minutes.
So, you seem to have fully accepted that witches are real and doing all of this by magic. however, you aso just gave an explanation on what could be happening when you said[quote=“ArchonofFail, post:67, topic:25”]
it could be a case of an unreliable narrator
[/quote]
Keep going with your theories even if you aren’t sure if they are right (trust me, I have a lot of stupid theories posted here). Suppose that you are correct about the narration being untrustworthy, what else might that mean? What can we trust? What can’t we trust? When else might the narrator be lying to us? Why would the narrator be lying (which means we also have to ask who this narrator might be.)?
Heh, it’s kinda weird seing one of the people that once theorized now being in the role of the observer. And yet, it’s basically going to be the rite of passage of this topic (and the other ones by extension) so to speak.
Now, before I get into any theorizing, I’ll get into my background with When They Cry in general. I have none. However, the one thing I knew about Umineko in particular is that it is inspired by “And Then There Were None” by Agatha Christie, and even if I wouldn’t have gotten that confirmed by someone, I would have suspected it because there are too many parallels between the stories for a mere coincidence. So first off, I’d like to talk a bit about those parallels and even where there are differences. As such, the next paragraph contains both minor and major spoilers to “And Then There Were None” (abbreviated as ATTWN at points). You have been warned.
Now first, probably the most obvious similarity. Both stories are murder mysteries taking place on an island cut off by the rest of the world, thereby creating a giant closed room. But then we already get into differences. In Christie’s book the people on the island don’t know each other, whereas on Rokkenjima we have members of a family and their servants, so they obviously aren’t strangers to each other. Then we have a minor difference in that the number is different, 10 in ATTWN and 18 in Umineko. Now, where this difference in number gets interesting is the piece of text that is murdered after. In Agatha’s story that’s a nursery rhyme called “Ten Little Niggers” (also please don’t take this word as offense, it is merely how the nursery rhyme is called in the book), in Ryukishi’s one it’s the Epitaph under Beatrice’s portrait. However, if we look at the numbers, we have ten in the text and ten on the island in ATTWN, but we have a minimum of 13 required to die on Rokkenjima when 18 are on the island. Next, we get to another similarity, namely that the murderer proclaims to be an additional person, U.N. Owen in Christie’s novel, Beatrice in Umineko. From there we go to another difference: ATTWN is hammering the fact in that there is no 11th person by having the people on the island search the entire island to confirm that there is no possible hiding spot. That way, the island in that story feels small. In Umineko though, the story tries its damnest to make the reader believe in a 19th person and makes the island itself feel way larger by having the forest as this taboo place. Now last but not least we get to the motive of the culprit, and this is the only thing that we don’t know yet in Umineko, so I’m basically going to superimpose another parallel by seeing how it is in ATTWN. In that story, the culprit was basically playing Judge, Jury and Executioner (if you remember, all ten had committed a crime that they were prosecuted for, found innocent, but actually had committed it except maybe for the culprit) and was just fascinated of murder mysteries and had it as a knack to murder after the nursery rhyme. So what is the motive in Umineko? If the culprit is Kinzo, then it could be reasoned that it is literally trying to resurrect Beatrice, someone that exists at least in Kinzo’s mind. And since she’s still not back when thirteen have been killed, he’s continuing to kill the rest, ending with himself. In that case, his supposed death earlier would then be faked of course,as others pointed out, it’s one of the less believable identifications, and burning yourself, while painful, is something you can do later on to preserve the illusion. If it’s anyone else than Kinzo, then the motive is most likely stated in the Letter of the Witch. This is going from the similar plot object of the tape in ATTWN where the killer announced why he is going to kill everyone. So that letter states that she is collecting interest. In a metaphorical sense, this most likely means that the culprit holds a grudge against the entire family and possibly themselves as well, because why would they otherwise kill themselves afterwards? So yeah, that’s my two cents on motive. I’m actually not saying that anyone specific has done the deed here though.
So now to something else I noticed. The entire conflict of “Does magic exist?” and the arguing for both sides, especially in the first Tea Party (the human one) eerily reminded me of arguing between a religious person, doesn’t matter which religion, and an atheist. And just like that discussion is more or less a fruitless one but has points for both sides, we have the same situation between Battler and those that have accepted Beatrice. And this might actually be an underlying theme for this episode, possibly the entire novel, I stumbled across here. As for me, which side I fall on?
I’m… undecided myself, to be honest. The reason for that actually lies in a meta perspective. From a meta perspective, the answer “A witch did it, it’s magic” is a lame one, because then there isn’t much of a mystery. That answer just seems like a copout to me. And yet, if we look at it from another perspective (although I think not really turning the chessboard, because I’m not looking from the opponent’s point of view, it’s more akin to the phrase “Thinking outside the box”, you’re free to point out if the famous phrase from this episode actually does apply), if the answer is indeed magic, then the actual mystery we are supposed to figure out would be where the hidden gold is, so even with magic as the answer there could be a mystery to solve.
Now, there’s a reason why I didn’t go over most questions that were asked in the thread, and I’ll go about that in my closing points now. You see, in the epilogue, because the plea of Maria to find out the truth utterly contradicted her portrayal in the story, I assumed for myself that the entire thing is actually told by an unreliable narrator, basically that the thing I read is the story that’s passed down as legend now and therefore went through several changes as folktales use to do. That means however that there’s too little to discern fact from legend, so I didn’t really have anything to go off of, and couldn’t possibly form any theories on my own. To form theories on my own, except for the one that the first episode is entirely uncredible, I’ll now need several permutations of the same story, to be able to find out what the core truth is that this legend was born from.
Episode 1 of Umineko, huh…? This is where everything begins. The start of the journey, as the curtains open for the grand tale which is about to unfold.
My feelings towards it is mostly positive, but as far as all the other episodes go, episode 1 was probably the weakest among the first four, which isn’t really its fault or anything. It basically means that it got better and better with each new episode. Kinda like say, comparing Dark Souls 2 with the first one. Both are great, one’s just better than the other.
The tone of episode 1 is also kinda different from the rest as well, and I think that helps it to stand out from the others to some degree. The kind of story you see with episode 1, and what you see later on changes, but at the same time, retains the same enjoyment as one would derive from it.
@MagusVerborum and I are just about done editing the final part of our Episode 1 play-through, and I’m really excited to get to talk about it now that we’ve been through it a second time. For some initial thoughts I’d say it’s been really interesting seeing seemingly innocuous dialogue come back and be relevant. I also really love how drawn out the gap before the end credits is, that was emotionally devestating to me the first time through. I don’t know how much more I can say without verging in to spoiler territory, but hopefully I can be back with a video on the topic in a couple of days 
So, since I had time off from the Little Busters bookclub on Kazamatsuri, I decided to grab life by the horns and read Umineko for the first time to see if I could catch up to the tea party for Chiru’s release. I didn’t know what to expect; Higurashi is my favorite story of all time, and part of me didn’t want it dethroned so fast, as seems to be the status quo. Merely by being on Rokkenjima I have absorbed knowledge about Umineko, first and foremost being that I shouldn’t compare it to Higurashi. Umineko also seems to have a reputation as a complex story, which doesn’t fit my tastes these days as I grow to enjoy the simpler, more idealistic things. Regardless, I dove into the murky haze with an eager grin.
I should note I was using the Steam version, unvoiced and with the original art. After Higurashi, Ryukishi’s art has grown on me immensely.
I was never the type of person to speculate or craft theories with any amount of dedication. I tend to only deal with concrete facts, and keep an open mind at all times instead of pursuing a track. That said, the first chapter surprised me. I had been underestimating myself, and thought this beast was far too different for me to enjoy. I was wrong; I soon felt the teeth of Ryukishi’s writing sink into me, caught in the jaws that I had been accustomed to from Higurashi and Higanbana, and was pulled beneath the waves.
I loved this chapter. It was, in my opinion, the perfect introduction. As some pointed out, it takes a while to get started, but like Higurashi, I won’t complain because Ryukishi knows how to make me care about the story and its characters. It was around the scene where Krauss turned the tables on his siblings that I knew I was home again.
The characters are amazing. They are flawed, believable, and sympathetic, almost frighteningly so. Rosa slapping Maria and reflecting on how bad of a mother she afterwards, while hard to watch, is a great example. Battler stands by Keiichi on a golden pedestal as my favorite visual novel protagonist, for being sharp and determined yet still believable as a young, rebellious teenager estranged from his family. I can’t wait to see more of him spinning the chessboard. Kanon and George stood out as well.
I love how this chapter explores the idea of fantasy versus reality. Battler constantly challenges the existence of Beatrice, stating that witches can’t exist in the human world. We’re tossed into a pit where we juggle the idea that things only exist because we believe in them. Is this an allegory to the belief in God? As a man of faith, this hits me hard. I believe human nature dictates we gravitate toward the unknown and believe in irrational powers, to compensate for the flaws of humanity. Battler entertains the idea of witches at several points, proving he isn’t just a strawman and is instead a conflicted person bent on solving what seems impossible. At least once Battler proclaims the virtue of allowing others their beliefs as long as they don’t force or harm others, which is a message I can never get enough of.
So, I was blown away. You were all right. Now, I can finally understand what 99% of Rokkenjima is talking about. 
Time will tell if Umineko topples Higurashi from the sun-bathed peaks of my heart. I’m not sure what awaits, but I hope I learn a lot.
My friend after almost 1 month finally finished the first episode, he posted his theory on Reddit.
I’m confused. Is Battler a Christian or an atheist? His way of thinking is that of an atheist, but he’s wearing a cross, though I guess you can’t really say a cross makes someone religious or not.
And I haven’t seen any girls interested in fortune telling and the like.
I haven’t either. But I suppose that’s just a big thing in Japan perhaps?
It may be different nowadays, but when I was a girl, we were interested in astrology readings and tarot cards, and movies like Hocus Pocus and The Craft were popular with wannabe witches. It could be that we’re so used to things like horoscopes in Western culture that we don’t see it as remarkable or mystical.
That’s basically a goth fashion thing, which seems to be one of Ryukishi’s inspirations for several character designs.
Kanon can sense people?
Poor Maria. You can see how much she’s been hurt. She just wants people to be nice to each other…
So, I’m getting the strange feeling that the murders of Twilights 6-10 aren’t going to be Beatrice. I think Natsuhi is going to kill someone right now.
So Beatrice seems to care a lot about Maria. More so than even Kinzo, so I’m thinking that maybe… Aunt Rosa is really Beatrice’s daughter?
Yeah, the tea party really reminds me of an atheist and a religious person arguing. What Battler’s saying makes sense, since there has to be a way, but Maria and the others are trying to guilt him into believing.
Strange how Beatrice’s character profile doesn’t fit her… She doesn’t hate Battler at all.
Your comment about the tea party reminds me of a fan-theory I saw going around when the anime first came out. People were saying the whole series (specifically the anime, as it has no ending) was an allegory for the futility of arguing atheism against religion. I’m not sure I agree with that assessment, but I think it’s interesting to note that others have felt the same way.
You could have warned us the ramblings for episode 1 had spoilers for future episodes…
I beg your pardon? I’m sorry but I don’t get your meaning. I haven’t spoiled anything, and religion isn’t an especially big theme in Umineko.
Your link to ramblings of a golden Witch. It appears to spoil future episodes even in the episode 1 ramblings.
Also, sorry about that. 
I was kind of harsh, especially since you were awesome enough to post a blog like that, but it does spoil stuff…
Oh, I didn’t realize what you were talking about, I posted that years ago. When I posted that, the forums were very small and the people who were posting were mostly familiar with the story. I think in particular I was responding to someone who was talking about the anime? At any rate I guess I can place a spoiler warning before the link.
