Umineko Episode 2 - Full Series Spoilers General

[Aspirety]

Spoilers discussion topic for Episode 2: Turn of the Golden Witch of Umineko When They Cry. Episode 2 refers to volumes 3 and 4 of the manga, and episodes 6-11 of the anime series.

This topic is intended for people who have finished the entirety of Umineko and wish to discuss this Episode in light of future events. For those who have yet to finish Umineko in its entirety, please tread carefully, because there will be untagged spoilers! Please tag references to outside works with the [spoiler] tag, with adequate context provided in parenthesis.

For those who have yet to finish the series and wish to discuss the story up to this point, please visit our Spoiler-Free discussion topic.

While this topic will serve as a general hub for discussion of the Episode, if a conversation ends up flowing in a certain direction, don’t be afraid to continue it in your own topic! Keep the “reply as linked topic” button beside each post in mind.

[Karifean]

Episode 2 is a really interesting one. When people say Yasu’s character is nearly impossible to grasp from the question arcs, this episode compels me to disagree. When it comes to that, Turn is an absolute goldmine.

And with that I’d actually like to hear your thoughts on the beginning parts of this episode, which is all about Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice. While they do follow a fantasy narrative, it’s clear that the story is trying to tell us something through these scenes.

For reference’s sake, here’s a quick bullet point list of the events in order of presentation.

• George and Shannon’s trip
• Breaking the mirror in the shrine
• Eva’s family visiting Rokkenjima - affection building between George and Shannon - Eva threatening Shannon
• Shannon (and Kanon) meeting Beatrice in front of her portrait
• Shannon telling Jessica about her trip with George
• Shannon talking to Beatrice in the rose garden - at the beach - Kanon finds them and scolds Shannon - Shannon tells Kanon there’s something he can’t “see” and gives him the brooch
• Shannon getting Jessica to invite Kanon as her fake boyfriend to the festival
• Jessica inviting Kanon
• The school festival
• Jessica’s family talking about it over dinner - Jessica meeting Kanon outside and having a long talk that turns into an argument - Beatrice appearing in front of Kanon, who defies her and breaks the brooch

After that we still have a bunch of setup scenes before we get to the incident proper, but they mostly focus on different characters, so let’s stick to these for now. Which of these scenes stuck out to you in special ways, and why? What do you think is the purpose behind showing them to us? For extra fun, try putting the scenes in chronological order alongside important events we also know of, such as Yasu solving the epitaph, Kanon becoming a servant, Shannon and George starting their relationship.

[MrDent]

One of my favorite things about rereading it from the perspective I have now, is that literally every reveal from the latter half of the series is on full display in this particular episode alone. From Krauss lamenting that his father can no longer hear him, to Kanon’s constant appearances and disappearances, to Kyrie deciding that lies are as valid as reality if neither is witnessed, to Shannon being relieved that Battler hasn’t changed at all in 6 years (what are the chances of that,) to the constant establishment that a person can become something completely different, I think Episode 2 is even more rewarding than Episode 1 in that regard.

Everyone remembers the scene with Kanon and Jessica in the courtyard, but the scene in the Guest House with Shannon and the cousins, I think, is miserably unappreciated. Not only does Shannon regard Battler oddly wistfully, not only do Jessica and George press very much that Sayo and Shannon aren’t the same person, but it also has Shannon, wordlessly and immediately, understanding Jessica and Kanon’s troubles. @Karifean’s right- not only is Yasu’s character definable from the Question Arcs, but practically defined in these scenes alone.

[Aspirety]

So I’m reading through the flashback portion of this Episode, trying to decipher what it is Beatrice is trying to tell us with these scenes. Scenes of Beatrice appearing before Kanon and Shannon, and granting them the ability to love. Maybe we could interpret this as something like, the Yasu who has given up on her love of Battler, is granting Kanon and Shannon permission to seek out their own love, to see which one can bear fruit. It does seem a bit odd that Kanon is given that opportunity after Shannon has obviously found a very successful relationship with George, though. Is Shannon more doubtful of her feelings toward George than we are lead to believe?

But one thing that’s really captured my interest this time around is the mirror. Why is the mirror so important? Is it really just magical fluff to make us believe in Beatrice, or is there some deeper metaphor that the mirror represents?

[MrDent]

I always thought the mirror represents Yasu giving up on life- when she shatters the mirror, she shatters her sense of self and allows Shannon and Kanon to become their own identities. (It’s also telling that Beatrice has Shannon’s tattoo, but MIRRORed, and one of her weaknesses are mirrors.)

This episode plays a lot with the idea that reality isn’t any more real than fantasy if unobserved, and I also think that the mirror plays into that theme a lot. When she shatters the mirror, her fate is sealed and she becomes determined to hide her reality in fantasy. (Which fits the reality behind that scene- She destroys the shrine by testing the explosives she found underneath the island. She finally becomes fully determined to end it all.)

[Aspirety]

One thing I always found odd was how they referred to the shrine as ‘destroyed by lightning’, but really, Shannon only destroyed the mirror inside.

My new theory is that Shannon had discovered the explosives hidden on Rokkenjima, and decided to test one on the shrine. Doing so was a turning point for her mentally, a sort of “Now that I’ve destroyed something, I’m no longer innocent, I need to go through with it” sort of deal.

Would fit with the supposed symbolism of destroying the mirror and ‘changing her fate’.

Just finished Episode 2, I’ll post more thoughts as they come back to me.

[MrDent]

That’s how the manga showed it! She found the explosives underneath the mansion, and tested them on the shrine.

http://m.mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_naku_koro_ni_chiru_episode_8_twilight_of_the_golden_witch/c024.2/45.html

[Aspirety]

The scene where Beatrice is attacking Shannon and George in Episode 2 seems like the most obvious hints at some kind of sexual trauma with Yasu. She loses her composure and begins claiming that men are lustful monsters and that love is an illusion.

Was there ever any implication that Kinzo ever raped Yasu…? I’m unsure how aware he really was of her existence.

[Karifean]

Kinzo didn’t rape Yasu, no, only her mother. He did eventually figure out that Kanon was Lion, but that was a few months before his death.

[Aspirety]

Right, so that couldn’t have happened. But there does seem to be something there with Beatrice’s views on love and lust.

[Karifean]

Well, that’s what the furniture complex is all about. She believes that as someone with a subhuman body, she is worthless and cannot be loved. Once that secret of hers is exposed she will be shunned and rejected for it. Shannon on the other hand is her optimistic side that believes that she can still be loved even so, but… well, you saw which side was being overwhelmed by the other.

[Aspirety]

Right, yeah, that does make sense. It’s less a comment on men, and more a comment on her own insecurities surrounding her body, believing that no man or woman could ever love her after seeing her body.

The way she COMPLETELY loses her shit in this scene is amazing. All traces of the usual composure of the Golden Witch thrown out the window in this scene.

[yeoujari]

(just as a heads up: i’m gonna be mentioning transphobic violence below.)

i’m gonna take a crack at answering you about beatrice’s views on love & lust.
so, first of all, i disagree with you that this isn’t really about men. i mean, yes, this is mainly about sayo’s own insecurities but those insecurities are rooted in real fears about the male gaze, patriarchal entitlement to women’s bodies, & threat of violence for gender non-conformity. also, yes, sayo fears women’s judgment too but women don’t have the same level of power that men do & i believe that sayo knows that.

consider this: if sayo was equally terrified of women & men’s judgment, then why doesn’t beatrice hate kanon as much as shannon? why doesn’t beatrice literally lose her mind ranting & raving about what disgusting filth kanon is too & that this love is meaningless without having sex & that jessica will surely hate him? george has his flaws but he doesn’t seem like a violent person, not any more than jessica is. & sure, beatrice also loathes kanon but you have to admit that the brunt of her hate is directed towards shannon. so, where is all this coming from? simply put: misogyny. i mean, every adult woman in umineko suffer so much because they’re told that women are only good for pleasing men & bearing children. & ‘pleasing men’ means, among other things, being ‘proper’ sexual objects. of course, kanon is also subject to abuse, stigma & oppression due to his “subhuman” body but there’s just a completely different dynamic between kanon/jessica & shannon/george. & umineko is upfront about the fact that the ushiromiyas really hate women & hold very conservative views on gender roles.

then, what does that mean if you’re a woman who can’t have ‘proper sex’ (meaning heterosexual notions of piv sex) with men? usually… it means intense violence, hate, & stigma. in real life, it’s a horrifying reality that in many places around the world, transgender women are killed at very high rates & experience a lot of domestic violence, abuse, & systematic oppression. &, generally, at the hands of men.

again, yes, this is mainly about sayo’s own self-hate & less about george but i’d argue that you can’t really understand where beatrice/sayo is coming from if you don’t also try to understand how sexism works. umineko is pretty good about how it talks about gender, sexism & transphobia; there’s a whole lot of layers in this scene of beatrice berating shannon than just sayo being insecure.

[BunnyAdvocate]

I had been planning to make a thread specifically about George & Shannon once I got posting permissions, but @yeoujari’s excellent post was too good not to build on.

The scene that Aspierty links was incredible. It’s the first time we get to see a glimpse past Beatrice’s all-powerful witch mask to see the poor broken person underneath. In this scene, Sayo is expressing her fears George’s intentions towards Shannon, fears that Shannon blinds herself to. But before I go on this anti-George rant, I just want to add the disclaimer that this is just my personal take on George, it’s not canon. Nor I don’t think he’s evil, he’s just a product of his privileged upbringing and rigid expectations.

George doesn’t love Shannon, he just loves what she represents, the dutiful wife. He’s got a vision of his future where he’s successful, with a loving wife at home who dotes on him that basically replaces his mother. She’ll raise his children and everyone will look up to him as the head of his household, he’ll have the respect he’s always seen as his right. Remember that his interest in Shannon only dawned when his ego bubble was burst and he realised that the whole world wasn’t in love with him, that she cared for Battler over him. His desire to correct this “injustice” is what led to their relationship.

George is obsessed with his future family portrait, the respectful children by his feet, the expensive mansion at his back, and the loving wife at his side. But if you look closely at this portrait, you’ll see the wife’s face is just a blur because her identity doesn’t matter. Shannon just happened to be the nearest candidate with a weak enough personality that she can take on the role of the wife mannequin.

You can see this self-obsessed attitude of George repeatedly in his interactions with Shannon. He doesn’t ask her about her interests or dreams except for how they relate to his vision for the future. It’s difficult to even see them as friends, they share no interests. George is the ultimate “Nice Guy,” he thinks a few kind words are enough to entitle him to her love, and because Shannon is so desperate for love, it works.

For Shannon, the side of Sayo that adopted the dutiful maid persona, George’s expectations for her is just a costume change away from her current maid role so she’s happy to accept it. But Sayo knows better. She knows what’ll happen on the wedding night when George realises his traditional wife has untraditional anatomy. As his long dreamed of family portrait shatters, he’s going to be angry. As yeoujari outlines, transphobic violence is depressingly common.

[yeoujari]

(aw, thank you for the compliment! )

yes, my thoughts exactly! i was going to talk more about george in a different post but this is great. &, ok, i said in my previous post that “george has flaws” but i’m really much more critical of him than that lol

he really is a great example of how narcissistic & patronizing “nice guys” actually are. particularly rich “nice guys” toward lower class women. i get so irritated every time i reread umineko & i see him act in this really condescending way whenever shannon calls herself ‘furniture.’ your girlfriend clearly has severely low self-esteem & you treat it like a silly joke? ok, george…

but i do believe ryukishi when he says that george could’ve eventually accepted sayo & her body. george’s awful in a lot of ways & he really does see shannon as this convenient ego-boosting doll. but he’s not an actually evil or violent person so he could’ve changed… but sayo’s terror & pain is realistic in a lot of heartbreaking ways. if he doesn’t even try to understand why she would call herself such a demeaning term like ‘furniture,’ then how can she trust him to understand & accept anything about her? he may seem kind & loving to her now but who knows if he’ll stay like that? this kind of dilemma is what so many closeted lgbtq people in real life who are in ignorant & homophobic/transphobic environments struggle with…

[BunnyAdvocate]

@yeoujari Yeah it’s painful to see how dismissive he is of Shannon’s talk of being furniture. He isn’t listening to her at all.

As for George ever accepting Sayo, who am I to dispute the word of god? A goat apparently because I struggle to see that happening within the environment George lived. I agree that George isn’t an evil person, he wouldn’t be angry at Sayo for who she is as long as she could still fulfil the role he’d imagined for her. If he felt he could still earn the same respect from society standing alongside a transgender woman, then he’d be happy to accept her. But that’s not going to happen in the aristocratic circles of 1980s Japan. That’s what would make him angry, not that she was transgender, but because she couldn’t fulfil the social prop role he wanted.

To turn this around for a moment, do you think Sayo could have accepted a life with George? Her dutiful maid persona might have been happy to be George’s social prop, but would the rest of her? Could she truly be happy in such a constrained role where image and social standing mattered above all else? I feel like the magic-inclined sides of Sayo seem far too playful and mischievous to be content in such position.

[yeoujari]

yeah, i do agree with you there. there’s a lot of classism underlying their relationship. & tbh i feel a little surprised at myself because i normally loathe characters like george & i don’t really mean to defend him but… i don’t know, i think he was actually willing to drop social standing for sayo. while the scenes where he fights against eva beatrice & gaap for his relationship with her didn’t actually happen & were written by touya, i think that did show george’s real feelings. & let’s remember that it’s not just about class though because he did really want children & sayo isn’t able to do that or have ‘proper’ sex with him. (also, i just have to point out that i really am creeped out that he was jealous of sayo liking battler more than him when he was 16 & she was, what, 9?? shannon said that she didn’t hold it against him but… george really is a mess.)

& that’s definitely true about sayo’s feelings. struggling with revealing to him that shannon is just a persona was a big part of her internal conflict & self-hate. she was basically used as a tool for everyone else all her life & she was hoping so much for just one person to see her as a complete human being… & there was no absolute guarantee that george would do that.

also, i can’t believe that i didn’t add this in my first post in this thread, but there’s also the whole incest issue. not only did sayo already have so many complicated issues about her gender, class, & relationships, she felt that she was being just like kinzo & preying on her relatives. even if she could get past everything else, there’s no way that society will ever accept incest & she’d probably always be haunted by what happened to her mother.

[EternalMagician]

but i do believe ryukishi when he says that george could’ve eventually accepted sayo & her body. george’s awful in a lot of ways & he really does see shannon as this convenient ego-boosting doll. but he’s not an actually evil or violent person so he could’ve changed… but sayo’s terror & pain is realistic in a lot of heartbreaking ways. if he doesn’t even try to understand why she would call herself such a demeaning term like ‘furniture,’ then how can she trust him to understand & accept anything about her? he may seem kind & loving to her now but who knows if he’ll stay like that? this kind of dilemma is what so many closeted lgbtq people in real life who are in ignorant & homophobic/transphobic environments struggle with…

I might remember it incorrectly but I think that what Ryukishi said is that George would accept Shannon not Sayo. My personal theory is that while George would be able to understand and accept Shannon he would never be able to understand Yasu because there’s a reason that Yasu put all of her hopes on Battler, not George. So while Shannon definitely could have won and married George I personally fear that she, in the end, would have commited suicide anyway, possibly murdering George as well.

[BunnyAdvocate]

@yeoujari You’re right that George does offer to run away with Shannon, but IIRC, his “rebellious” threat is really just another way to prove his status as equal to his parents by becoming a self-made millionaire instead of inheriting their fortune. Whether he rebels or not, he envisions himself in the same position in 10 years time.

As for his fight with Eva & Gaap, it could certainly be read as George expressing true love for Shannon, but I’d see it more as him stubbornly defending his vision of a family than defending Shannon specifically. It could be read either way though, I appreciate that my interpretation is on the more extreme side.

let’s remember that it’s not just about class though because he did really want children & sayo isn’t able to do that

But did George want children because he loves children or because his upbringing made creating an heir an integral part of his self-image? I’m not sure if his desire for children can be totally disconnected from the expectations of his social class. However I agree that you’re probably right, George treated Maria well and I could see him being a caring father.

i just have to point out that i really am creeped out that he was jealous of sayo liking battler more than him when he was 16 & she was, what, 9?

Shudders.

I hadn’t considered that, it makes his “nice guy” attitude towards her even more unsettling, like he’d groomed her.

incest issue

Eek yeah, Sayo is 75% Kinzo at this point? That’s a thought to turn anyone’s stomach.

Ryukishi said is that George would accept Shannon not Sayo.

@EternalMagician Ah thank you for the clarification, that’s an important distinction. As you rightfully point out, you can’t marry just one aspect of someone’s personality, and your prediction as to how Shannon & George would have ended up sounds tragically accurate.

[EternalMagician]

This is a pretty good essay about George and his relationship to Shannon/Yasu, definitely worth a read: http://akatokuro.tumblr.com/post/5719742886/the-big-ridiculously-long-yasu-essay-part-36 (actually, the entire thing is worth reading as it covers and has some really thoughtful reflections about Yasu and her relationship with herself (as Beatrice and Lion), Battler, George, Jessica and WIll plus a few other things).