Umineko Episode 4 Full Series Spoilers General

[Aspirety]

Spoilers discussion topic for Episode 4: Alliance of the Golden Witch of Umineko When They Cry. Episode 4 refers to volumes 7-9 of the manga, and episodes 19-26 of the anime series.

This topic is intended for people who have finished the entirety of Umineko and wish to discuss this Episode in light of future events. For those who have yet to finish Umineko in its entirety, please tread carefully, because there will be untagged spoilers! Please tag references to outside works with the [spoiler] tag, with adequate context provided in parenthesis.

For those who have yet to finish the series and wish to discuss the story up to this point, please visit our Spoiler-Free discussion topic.

While this topic will serve as a general hub for discussion of the Episode, if a conversation ends up flowing in a certain direction, don’t be afraid to continue it in your own topic! Keep the “reply as linked topic” button beside each post in mind.

[Aspirety]

So, was it ever explained how exactly Ange ended up with Maria’s diary? It seems very odd that Eva would keep it in her possession and hand it over to Ange.

[Usagi]

I think this actually makes it rather doubtful wether these scenes are actually true tbh.

There’s something that kinda got sidetracked in Umineko. When we first saw Ange’s future in 1998 at the end of arc3, the scenes with Bernkastel clearly suggests that this future is “merely one probably future” with a rather low probability, but not the necessary factual future. If this is truly the future then it’s not merely a probability of a future, it’s just the future and that’s how it ends.

In arc4 meanwhile LD tells Ange that it’s not impossible for Battler to leave Rokkenjima in 1986 and come back home, but that will be for an Ange, that is, essentially, of another timeline. It will never be for “the Ange” that she is talking to.

I don’t really know what really happened there, it kinda sounds to me like something Ryuukishi discarded midway or something, but at the very least there’s nothing that really makes it certain that what we’re seeing is the future, and even if this is essentially “correct” (as in, Eva did really come back, and so the at least official events would be true) we basically know from this line of thought that every scene after the skyscrapper incident are fiction, and same for the entire scenes of Ange and Featherine in arc6. This kinda strongly suggests that these scenes are fiction as well, and I’m not sure why that wouldn’t apply to the school scenes of Ange.

It may be even more lonely to think of it that way, but as a result I see nothing that truly ascertain that Ange ever had Maria’s diary.

Everything about prime is so confusing, we really have almost no information on what could be true and what couldn’t. In the arc7 TP, Bernkastel summoned Ange and Lion to the same theater room thing to essentially torture them (let’s leave it at that), which may be me reading too much into this… but they have essentially a strong connection : They are both characters introduced by Bernkastel as only existing in fragments that have very low probability of occurring, just that Lion’s has a ridiculously lower probability of occurring.

A thing I could add is that Ange’s “death” in 1998 is part of an endgame scroll, which kinda shows that Ange’s future is part of a fiction.

I’m not really sure what to conclude there, because at the very least I want to believe that the very final scene of arc8 is actually true (that Ange became a writer) but I also can’t shake out the idea that it’s a… kinda weird thing. (Ikuko never aged, and the description seems to suggest that Tohya is now younger then the current Ange).

Ultimately tho, it comes down to this, I don’t think we have any reason to believe that Ange’s world that we see is actually anything but a fiction. I also don’t think we can be certain that the actual future is a fiction either. It’d be essentially the same as the “story arcs” vs “what really happened on Rokkenjima”. That is, saying that something actually did happen does not mean that any of the message bottles contains anything about the truth of what really happened.

And so that was a long turnaround, but I would say that it’s extremely unlikely that Ange actually had access to that diary.

[Aspirety]

That attitude seems to be very dismissive of a large portion of Umineko for convenience sake. Why are you so keen to determine that Ange’s future of 1998 from Episode 4, 6 and 8 is complete fiction? Wouldn’t it be better to form an interpretation that accomodates these as real? I mean, if you really want to get into ‘alternate possibilites’, what about all the Fragments where the Rokkenjima incident never occured? Does that mean Prime isn’t real either?

It’s kind of an infinite regression that destroys any hope of critical thought…

[Usagi]

I pointed out the reasons and hints why.
If I’m to turn things around, would you say I’m dismissing a large portion of umineko for convenience’s sake by saying that Lion’s world is a fiction?

Or for the matter, kinda, all of Umineko?
Last I checked, every single arc was at least for the majority fictions.
Is accepting them as such dismissive?
Arc 1 in particular has as only probably non fictional scene the post credit thing saying that a message bottle was found. Arc2 doesn’t even have that.

The only thing that can probably be interpreted as likely real about prime is that Ange never jumped off the skyscrapper and instead gave off her identity and became a writer, but in any case we’re shown multiple versions of this (including a branch of a branch given the mystery ending in arc8) and they can’t all be real.

Her arc6 scene in particular has Ange being consciously aware that she’s just a piece being used by Featherine and is mad at it.

I’m going to have to conclude that you consider Umineko arc 1-2-3 until the scene with Ange at the end to be impossible to have any critical thought about for the same accusation you threw on me.

[Aspirety]

Okay, sorry for my accusatory language. But I mean, I don’t really follow your reasoning there.

The majority of Umineko has made a big point that the events of the Episodes are contained within the letter bottles, with the addition of the Meta layer. Episode 4 then is portrayed as the most objective reality in Umineko, where we’re looking back at the catbox, unaware of the contents but aware that at least Eva survived, and the bottles exist. If we start denying that, we pretty much have nothing left. There’s certain things that can only be gained once you accept certain aspects of Umineko are fictional in-text, but to form deductions we need a concrete basis to found them on. If we don’t accept the events of Episode 4 as real, then what do we have left? At that point, nothing is real, and reasoning is impossible.

Instead, I prefer to hold a more complimentary view. For sure, Episode 6’s ange scenes are questionable (and the story goes out of its way to point this out), but I never got that feeling reading Episode 4. If anything, it’s just the usual fantasy narrative layered upon real events. I’ll leave Episode 6 out for now; maybe it’s real in so far as Ange met with Ikuko, but the contents of their discussion are embellished. But if we assume that Ange didn’t really die at the end of Episode 4, then that can easily lead to the Magic ending.

Of course, the fact that the story branches due to a choice in Episode 8 is troublesome, but I don’t believe it’s justified to question Ange’s entire story arc as fiction. For all intents and purposes, it is the ground upon we stand for any reasoning concerning the reality of Umineko and any sort of Prime.

[brianhbrown]

So, was it ever explained how exactly Ange ended up with Maria’s diary? It seems very odd that Eva would keep it in her possession and hand it over to Ange.

Back to your original question, does episode 4 describe when she received it? We find out in later episodes, that Eva initially wanted things to be OK with Ange. Eva was completely rejected, which eventually led to mutual resentment. She could have given it to Ange prior to things going completely south.

My memory is hazy on some finer details, I am waiting to do a full series reread when the steam version of 5-8 come out.

[thesorceress]

I don’t remember anything in canon that tells us how Ange got ahold of Maria’s diary. Ange’s narration in Episode 4 says pretty clearly that she found it in her belongings, but I doubt it’s possible that it could have survived the explosion. Maria’s obsessive enough that it wouldn’t be strange for her to have more than one diary, though. It’s possible that this is a different one than the one she brought to the island. It’s also possible that the narration is slightly unreliable and that the diary was at Maria’s house; Rosa could have made her leave it behind.

I don’t find it strange that Ange could get her hands on Maria’s possessions though. She is one of Maria’s last living family members–I’m sure the Ushiromiya’s possessions had to go somewhere and Eva and Ange seem like the place they would go.

[thesorceress]

Also, I’m kind of marveling at the fact that the spoiler-free chat reached Kanon=Beatrice before Shannon=Beatrice or Kanon=Shannon. The first is the most difficult connection to make, but it’s certainly the most helpful in solving the how-done-it part of the mystery.

[brianhbrown]

Also, I’m kind of marveling at the fact that the spoiler-free chat reached Kanon=Beatrice before Shannon=Beatrice or Kanon=Shannon. The first is the most difficult connection to make, but it’s certainly the most helpful in solving the how-done-it part of the mystery.

Yeah, we’ll see how confused they are when they get to episode 5. There is a big piece of evidence that Shannon is involved. When Natsuhi’s internalizes that she is the only person who could possibly know what her favorite season is.

[Karifean]

Yeah, we’ll see how confused they are when they get to episode 5. There is a big piece of evidence that Shannon is involved. When Natsuhi’s internalizes that she is the only person who could possibly know what her favorite season is.

Well that particular piece of evidence is so easy to break apart that I doubt people will actually take it as such.

[Usagi]

This is your opinion, to me there’s no way to reconcile that arc8 and arc4 has different branches of the same thing.

It’s like a mini-rokkenjima, and as far as I know I’m far from the only one who views it that way. Ange vanished after the skyscrapper event.

Did she commit suicide and just die?
Did she go on a trip like arc4 shows?
Or did she go on to become an author after changing her name?
Or maybe other possibilities, it’s a catbox after all.

It’s sorta like multiple arcs written from the same catbox, and I have no reason to doubt this is the case.

I would also point out that I think the most trustable scene of all of Umineko as far as prime matters are the ones in late arc8. Namely…
-Ikuko and Tohya’s story after Ikuko found “Battler”.
-Ange’s story as a writer when she finally meets her brother (including the kinda clearly given explanation by Ikuko as to why to she wrote Ange as a fictional character in arc6)
-Battler and Beatrice’s scene in october 6th leading to them falling into the ocean.

Nonetheless two of these scenes have clearly … figurative scenes.

[Aspirety]

But first you were arguing that anges entire life up to that point is fictional. I understand that there’s at least a little evidence to support a split from the point of jumping off the skyscraper, but following that reasoning we have to accept that everything that happened before that is the truth. Ange in saint Lucia with the diary, Eva surviving etc.

[Usagi]

They are part of the same tale that is arc4, which is interwoven from a meta perspective as well.
I don’t have any particular reason that stands out to think these scenes alone are unique and different, and neither do you really from what I see.
From my understanding these are all memories of Meta-Ange who is a piece.

Ultimately tho it is what it is, there’s clear references in arc4 that Ange’s future is but one possibility, and it’s presented in the same way as Lion’s world, just with a comparatively higher amount of probabilities.

There’s very little we can know for certain, it just sorta feels like Ange’s future is something fans wanted so much to be “the truth” (even tho there is a large amount of flaws of information in it) that Ryuukishi ended up sorta rolling with it, as in answering that particular “kakera”, but at the same time arc7 kinda does suggest that it’s very doubtful wether or not this is a real reality. By making the connection between Ange and Lion in the arc7 TP, I think it was trying to be put them as equivalent.

However you could say that it ends up being me who is pretty biased toward the “Ange becomes a writer ending”, as it makes some form of thematic sense. At the very least I openly admit that this is the case. If I truly do follow the hints scattered around the story, well, I can’t really be certain that there is a prime (remember that in arc8 Battler claims the catbox is empty).

Out of the three scenes I mentioned, it’s clearly the weirder one.

[Aspirety]

My view is that Episode 4 and the magic end are complimentary to one another. Ange returns to Rokkenjima, survives a near-death experience and goes on to become an author. You could even throw in meeting Ikuko in between. Is there any contradictions with that interpretation?

[Usagi]

I’m too tired to find the exact scene, but yes.

The Ange on the skyscrapper who does not jump and calls Okonogi instead very strongly imply that not only did she never jump, but that she could survive would be very unlikely and she kinda makes fun of her over it.

[Aspirety]

I can’t remember that scene :s

[MrDent]

I don’t want to jump into a convo I’m not really a part of, but it’s stated by Bernkastel that it’s impossible for Ange to survive such a jump in Episode 8. Not only that, but the Magic Ending begins with Ange not jumping, but instead asking the guards who’ve chased her onto the roof if she could talk to Okonogi. As for whether or not this fictionalizes (but certainly doesn’t invalidate) the EP4 and EP6 Ange segments, I have no strong opinions at the moment.

[Usagi]

As for whether or not this fictionalizes (but certainly doesn’t invalidate) the EP4 and EP6 Ange segments, I have no strong opinions at the moment.

I would say that anyone who thinks something being fictional in-world of Umineko invalidates it is reading the wrong story, as the vast majority of it is absolutely certain to be in-world fictional.

[MrDent]

I absolutely agree, and I’m sure Aspirety does too.

But some people don’t. KnownNoMore, for example, believed that only the first episode’s Rokkenjima sequences actually happened. He was the first theorist I knew who proposed Ange’s future was fiction, although he said so because Ange’s future didn’t match up with Episode 1, where Eva was killed. I’ve got no problem with you saying that most of the Ange sequences were fiction, because you’re not invalidating them, but KNM used fiction as an excuse to disregard them entirely.