Back to your original question, does episode 4 describe when she received it? We find out in later episodes, that Eva initially wanted things to be OK with Ange. Eva was completely rejected, which eventually led to mutual resentment. She could have given it to Ange prior to things going completely south.
My memory is hazy on some finer details, I am waiting to do a full series reread when the steam version of 5-8 come out.
I don’t remember anything in canon that tells us how Ange got ahold of Maria’s diary. Ange’s narration in Episode 4 says pretty clearly that she found it in her belongings, but I doubt it’s possible that it could have survived the explosion. Maria’s obsessive enough that it wouldn’t be strange for her to have more than one diary, though. It’s possible that this is a different one than the one she brought to the island. It’s also possible that the narration is slightly unreliable and that the diary was at Maria’s house; Rosa could have made her leave it behind.
I don’t find it strange that Ange could get her hands on Maria’s possessions though. She is one of Maria’s last living family members–I’m sure the Ushiromiya’s possessions had to go somewhere and Eva and Ange seem like the place they would go.
Also, I’m kind of marveling at the fact that the spoiler-free chat reached Kanon=Beatrice before Shannon=Beatrice or Kanon=Shannon. The first is the most difficult connection to make, but it’s certainly the most helpful in solving the how-done-it part of the mystery.
Yeah, we’ll see how confused they are when they get to episode 5. There is a big piece of evidence that Shannon is involved. When Natsuhi’s internalizes that she is the only person who could possibly know what her favorite season is.
Well that particular piece of evidence is so easy to break apart that I doubt people will actually take it as such.
This is your opinion, to me there’s no way to reconcile that arc8 and arc4 has different branches of the same thing.
It’s like a mini-rokkenjima, and as far as I know I’m far from the only one who views it that way. Ange vanished after the skyscrapper event.
Did she commit suicide and just die?
Did she go on a trip like arc4 shows?
Or did she go on to become an author after changing her name?
Or maybe other possibilities, it’s a catbox after all.
It’s sorta like multiple arcs written from the same catbox, and I have no reason to doubt this is the case.
I would also point out that I think the most trustable scene of all of Umineko as far as prime matters are the ones in late arc8. Namely…
-Ikuko and Tohya’s story after Ikuko found “Battler”.
-Ange’s story as a writer when she finally meets her brother (including the kinda clearly given explanation by Ikuko as to why to she wrote Ange as a fictional character in arc6)
-Battler and Beatrice’s scene in october 6th leading to them falling into the ocean.
Nonetheless two of these scenes have clearly … figurative scenes.
But first you were arguing that anges entire life up to that point is fictional. I understand that there’s at least a little evidence to support a split from the point of jumping off the skyscraper, but following that reasoning we have to accept that everything that happened before that is the truth. Ange in saint Lucia with the diary, Eva surviving etc.
They are part of the same tale that is arc4, which is interwoven from a meta perspective as well.
I don’t have any particular reason that stands out to think these scenes alone are unique and different, and neither do you really from what I see.
From my understanding these are all memories of Meta-Ange who is a piece.
Ultimately tho it is what it is, there’s clear references in arc4 that Ange’s future is but one possibility, and it’s presented in the same way as Lion’s world, just with a comparatively higher amount of probabilities.
There’s very little we can know for certain, it just sorta feels like Ange’s future is something fans wanted so much to be “the truth” (even tho there is a large amount of flaws of information in it) that Ryuukishi ended up sorta rolling with it, as in answering that particular “kakera”, but at the same time arc7 kinda does suggest that it’s very doubtful wether or not this is a real reality. By making the connection between Ange and Lion in the arc7 TP, I think it was trying to be put them as equivalent.
However you could say that it ends up being me who is pretty biased toward the “Ange becomes a writer ending”, as it makes some form of thematic sense. At the very least I openly admit that this is the case. If I truly do follow the hints scattered around the story, well, I can’t really be certain that there is a prime (remember that in arc8 Battler claims the catbox is empty).
Out of the three scenes I mentioned, it’s clearly the weirder one.
My view is that Episode 4 and the magic end are complimentary to one another. Ange returns to Rokkenjima, survives a near-death experience and goes on to become an author. You could even throw in meeting Ikuko in between. Is there any contradictions with that interpretation?
I’m too tired to find the exact scene, but yes.
The Ange on the skyscrapper who does not jump and calls Okonogi instead very strongly imply that not only did she never jump, but that she could survive would be very unlikely and she kinda makes fun of her over it.
I can’t remember that scene :s
I don’t want to jump into a convo I’m not really a part of, but it’s stated by Bernkastel that it’s impossible for Ange to survive such a jump in Episode 8. Not only that, but the Magic Ending begins with Ange not jumping, but instead asking the guards who’ve chased her onto the roof if she could talk to Okonogi. As for whether or not this fictionalizes (but certainly doesn’t invalidate) the EP4 and EP6 Ange segments, I have no strong opinions at the moment.
I would say that anyone who thinks something being fictional in-world of Umineko invalidates it is reading the wrong story, as the vast majority of it is absolutely certain to be in-world fictional.
I absolutely agree, and I’m sure Aspirety does too.
But some people don’t. KnownNoMore, for example, believed that only the first episode’s Rokkenjima sequences actually happened. He was the first theorist I knew who proposed Ange’s future was fiction, although he said so because Ange’s future didn’t match up with Episode 1, where Eva was killed. I’ve got no problem with you saying that most of the Ange sequences were fiction, because you’re not invalidating them, but KNM used fiction as an excuse to disregard them entirely.
That’s a very sad state of things…
I’ll probably get around to write my vision and theory of “everything” about Umineko, tho I’m a bit reluctant as well since it’s most likely controversial in most of it’s aspects and I’m a bit tired of finding myself one vs the world.
If anything I believe that while we can solve the “mystery” aspect of Umineko, we can also, in essence, solve the “fantasy” aspect of Umineko, and that it’s where the most important answers lies.
I’m vehemently against discarding a fantasy scene under the premise that it’s a fantasy scene, similarly to how from my pov it’s like dismissing the value of anything in it simply for being a fiction in-universe.
But I’ll get around to it, as my ultimate contribution to Umineko fandom.
They are so close and so far away in the speculation thread. They bring up the concept of a trap that could be anything. I just want to ask them the following. I won’t because I think it would be too leading.
Why were the police unable to find out the details of the murders?
Why was the only evidence recovered a piece of Maria’s jaw?
What did they make of the state of Rokkenjima in 1998?
Don’t worry, those questions have already been addressed. Just waiting on a few people to post their thoughts now.
What was their answer? Im a bit curious but holy hell that thread is long and I don’t know where it is in it and I don’t want to miss it while skimming.
Enough about the newcomers, the Tea Party isn’t for them alone. How about you guys? What thoughts and feelings come to mind returning to Episode 4 after the truth has been revealed to you?
I’ve found it very… Tragic. But I really do love how they put a new spin on magic here. It was never about witches and furniture, it was about painting the world with happiness and protecting the happiness of others. Unless we’re talking about black magic, which ironically was portrayed as a witch who denies magic at the very end.
But damn, watching Beatrice completely lose heart and surrendering herself to a fate of oblivion together with Maria is… Heart rending. The voice acting adds so much to the experience.
I like this episode a lot better after knowing the truth. The scenes with Ange and Maria to me are the slowest in the whole series. In hindsight, they really explain the concepts of magic to the user. Liked the Ange stuff in 1998, because it gives a lot of hints.
Seraphitic has some of the details correct but can’t put it all together. Definitely more than I did.
On reread, I still like episode 2 over this, because the Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice scenes are really giving you a lot of answers very early on.