Boys are able to get a girl pregnant when they begin to produce sperm in their semen. This generally begins when they start puberty, which can be from ages 11 to 14.
besides, how about explaining how only ange and battler are red haired while the rest have common hair color.
What if Kinzo had red hair in his youth and his gene was able to be passed down onto the two of them? The siblings inherited some other hair color, either from their mother or a grandparent, but Kinzoâs gene was still there. The other grandchildren are all easy to explain since George and Jessica have the hair of their fathers, and Maria has an unknown father. Genes from a grandparent would also explain the blue eyes for Battler, Ange, and Jessica.
well my theory still holds, its not impossible for a 12 year old to impregnate a woman.
how about I supplement my theory earlier:
rudolf, still pretty close to kyrie, invited her in some kind of party or celebration in his house. due to the party, everyone got drunk, including a mischievous battler who ignored his parents advice.
asumu might be the type to pass out after being drunk or wasnt at home for some reason, might even be hospitalized if her death was some illness. rudolf could be the same and retired to his room. ange was put to sleep way before the drinking was happening
kyrie on the other hand might have some stronger tolerance as well as battler, though in his case it might be that he just drunk a bit and it was enough. kyrie in her drunken state and maybe sexual frustration from not having rudolf, might have done it to battler, who in his drunk state didnt know anything.
Thatâs a bit⌠tasteless on Rudolfâs part.
So Ange was already born at this point. Wasnât Ange born after or right as Battler left. What is Battler doing at their house? Iâd assume Battler left around the time Ange was born, donât think itâd be before. Besides, werenât you arguing that Battler impregnated Kyrie with Ange?
So a 12 year old Battler is already so grown and so used to alcohol to have a high tolerance of it?
ange wasnt born yet
derp, I messed up on that part.
ok what I meant there that in battlerâs case, he didnt have a high tolerance, rather that he got drunk just with a taste.
I mean, even a 6 year old could get a bit drunk points at umineko manga
This is completely pointless as this is just part of the ârulesâ about hair colour (and eyes even) in anime : it makes no sense.
You may as well try to mix in that theory that chiester 45 is part of that little family as she has also red hair, if this is done for the lolz.
Itâs not particularly different from trying to reason out why in Re : Zero kara hajimeru isekai seikatsu does Rem and Ram have respectively blue and pink hair colour when they are twins.
To begin with, japanese people doesnât have red hair and the narration does not ever actually describe any members of the ushiromiya familyâs hair colour or eye colour.
Thereâd be something I could add that would reassure your hair colour thing but itâd be spoilery of later eps tho, so Iâll post it âjust in caseâ in the other full umineko spoiler thread.
Even in anime, Iâve seen efforts to make parents and children look genetically compatible, so this isnât much of an argument.
Fraternal twins can have different hair colors
Do they have to? I mean, this is a VN after all. Itâs not a book where they have to describe features such as those all the time, since weâre able to see their expressions and features from their character portraits.
I stand by what I said.
Using anime hair logic as a clue that suggests a 12 years old impregnated an adult is ridiculous.
Your second point defeats your first one, or at least shows that it shouldnât be taken seriously as a clue of meaning anything, itâs not like Rem and Ramâs parents had the hair colours of their children either.
Your third point does not defeat the idea that japanese people does not have red hair or blonde hair. Sure, you could say that this is anime logic (thus my first point, hair colour makes no sense) but considering how no one ever brings up something like âJessica has blonde hair, hey isnât that Beatriceâs hair colourâ or something along that line, itâs kinda implied they donât really have these hair colours.
More importantly, itâs also a very strong suggestion that hair colour does not count as hint toward anything.
But if you want to believe Battler impregnated Kyrie, by all means, enjoy yourselves. Itâs probably funny to entertain as an idea.
even with crazy hair logic in anime, still usually follow genetic biology rule. you wont suddenly have 2 blonde parents have a black haired kid. in those scenarios, what would happen is that the kid will have aunt/uncle with black haired, or perhaps their grandparents have. but you wont have one black haired kid in a family full of white hair unless theres adoption involved(or magic/supernatural stuff). battlerâs hair would come from his real parents or maybe grandparents(I would like to say at least that kinzo doesnt have red hair, of course the grandma might have the red hair though)
also if I remember right, rem and ram are part demon. their biology would be different hence its alright for the two to have different hair colors. and afaik(I havent gone too far in the series yet) their parents hair color is unknown so its possible for either parents to have the colors for either girls.
and regarding appearances, as pik3rob said, its a VN thus their models suffice. like, im pretty sure no one has ever commented in verse how gaapâs dress has that âgapâ.
Iâll admit, I find the Battler-impregnated-Kyrie-with-Ange idea somewhat tasteless, and unnecessary because as @UsagiTenpura says the Ushiromiya familyâs hair colors are already outlandish. However, I wonât attack a theory just because I donât like it. Instead, Iâll congratulate @silvercover for putting forth a theory about Battlerâs sin from years ago, and trying to make a connection with another event from six years ago. But letâs not forget what Beatrice said!
The sin doesnât have to do with âmatters concerning [Battlerâs] immediate family.â It would follow it doesnât have anything to do with Rudolf or Kyrie or Ange or Battler being Angeâs real father ⌠unless you can connect it back to to Rokkenjima. If this is your theory, pursue it wholeheartedly! But is there a sin more âfitting for this placeâ?
Thereâs also the matter where in the case of a sexual relation between a 12 years old boy and an adult woman, I cannot agree with anyone that would suggest itâs the fault of the child. I donât think even Beatrice would go to the extent of victim blaming a child victim of pedophilia.
Edit/to add a theory : I would bring up that the first thing that came to mind when I read arc4, is that Beatrice talking about how âthe name Ushiromiya does not belong to you aloneâ (or something along those lines) made me think that a possibility is that Kinzo originally wanted Battler to succeed as his heir (you know, especially considering the whole parallel of their appearance and of being the son of a branch family) and that leaving the family it caused the entire succession issue to begin with. Adding to this that Battler came back after Kinzoâs death (something Beatrice also sorta may have referred to, talking about how the previous or the next yearâs return of Battler wouldnât have lead to such a result or at least not to that extreme) it just felt like it made some sense. If he had come back a year earlier the succession wouldnât have been an issue to begin with, and if he had come back a year later itâd have been solved by then, but the âmissing secret heirâ of Kinzo coming back right in the middle of the matter being disputed, well I think thatâs not unreasonable as a cause of the tragedy of Rokkenjima.
An additional hint supporting this is that in arc1 (I think? canât be certain now) when Kinzo lists the reason why none of his children or grandchildren are fit for succession, the only thing he finds to say against Battler is that âhe is a fool who threw away the name of the Ushiromiyaâ, unlike everyone else who he seems to have reasons to reject them based on their personality to begin with.
oh yeah there was that lineâŚ
well, as I said, connecting the sin to the cause of the killings is something I havent really worked out yet. I just thought of a âsinâ that could work with the given information. il think about it some more later.
An interesting thought! And if Battler is part of the succession of Beatrices in some way â if heâs Beatrice IIâs secret son â then it makes sense that Kinzo would willingly and gladly grant headship to him, once the succession question came up. Battler would be the only thing left of his beloved Beatrice, who Kinzo has already lost twice. It would be even more insulting to Kinzo that Battler would just throw away the Ushiromiya name like that, even if thereâs no way Battler could have known.
Not a good example, because Krauss has blonde hair. Actually, Jessica might be a hint that they do care about genetics somewhat because her hair is a combination of both her parentsâ.
I donât. I think the idea is ridiculous. I was arguing against it.
I wouldnât consider Battler part of the branch family.
But that probably didnât happen, so who knows.
I would assume considering how the interactions between Battler and Beatrice were when discussing his sin, it must be something that Battler did that he should know about, at least a little. It could be something different that happened during that year, and while I canât entirely disprove what youâre saying, I have a feeling itâs something that Battler knew would have negative consequences at the time of having committed it, because otherwise he wouldnât be forced to remember it as a sin.
Donât have time to research it at the moment, but were we ever told how long Kinzo was sick before eventually dying? Kinzoâs death is most likely tied to the murders in some way, so if Battler did something that would cause his eventual death (unknowingly), then we can count that as a sin.
so your saying something like this maybe?
battler, in his mischievous age, did a prank or something which caused kinzo to be ill.
this causes kinzo to be even more mad and plans the murder happening.
its also possible that what battler did pissed of someone else and they though of the murder.
My point with this is that the story makes hair colour a relevant thing only for Beatrice, and that it was never bought up for anyone else suggests itâs not a value clue that could be used for things otherwise even as a red herring someone wouldâve bought up characters with seemingly blonde hair in relation to Beatrice.
I thought it kinda clear that blonde hair and blue eyes are a special thing in Umineko, and well even there⌠later art versions had fun adding weird eye colours to everyone who originally all had dark eyes.
Semantics, just like Kinzo heâs very far from being in the line of succession.
Well I can see where youâre coming from, but I donât think itâs a good idea to discard everything simply because it didnât happen. I canât consider a clue âinvalidâ because of that, but that doesnât mean itâs necessarily valid either.
Thatâs an interesting line of thought, but just to clarify a bit more (or rather more to the point) if Umineko is asking this of us, it means somewhere in arc 1-2-3-4 there is a way to find out that answer. Any information about what we actually know of Battler six years ago may be worth considering, with the odd exclusion of what comes in relation to his immediate family. It would make sense to evacuate from reason the characters whom Battler never met before, namely Gohda, Nanjo, Kanon, unless there is a valid counter to this clued somewhere. That still leaves us with 11 more characters to investigate (also excluding Kyrie and Rudolf).
I donât think that is ever mentioned precisely. I may as well add that as far as I know we donât even know what Kinzo was sick with. Nanjo, youâre such a bad doctor.
No, Iâm saying that Kinzoâs death is probably something that would have caused the murders, and if Battlerâs actions led to said death, then Battlerâs sin would have led to the murders.
I donât want to read the entire thread, sorryâŚ
But Iâd like to know if Gohda and Kumasawaâs death in arc4 was discussed. It may sound weird to say, but itâs ultimately the only closed room murder of the entire arc.
I donât blame you, itâs getting to be quite a long thread! Lots of good discussion in it so far. We havenât discussed Gohda and Kumasawaâs death yet â it is interesting that itâs the only closed room murder of the arc. But itâs also a pretty weak closed room. In Beatriceâs usual closed room definition, thereâs no possibility of interference from the outside, no crack wide enough to slip in a wire or anything like that. The only allowable interference is someone knocking or speaking through the door. However, in this closed room, thereâs definitely a window large enough to slip a key through â thatâs how they âclosedâ it in the first place. The culprit need only have opened the window and shot Gohda and Kumasawa through it!
The only thing thatâs mysterious about these murders is that the bodies were hanging when Battler found them. The window is wide enough to slip a key in or fire a shot through, but too small for a person to get in and out of. (Otherwise there would no point in locking the room at all.) So even if the culprit shot the victims, thereâs no way they couldâve gotten in and hung up the bodies. (Unless they were a witch or demon who could move through walls, right?) However, thereâs no evidence about the order of the shootings and the hangings! And, as previously established, even in a closed room itâs possible to speak through doors or windows. The culprit must have spoken to Gohda and Kumasawa, and said something to convince them to hang themselves. Then, in order to create the appearance of a closed room murder mystery instead of a straightforward suicide, the culprit shot both the bodies!
I reviewed the tea parties to make sure neither Beatrice nor Lambdadelta said anything to contradict these blue theories, but do let me know if I missed anything! Obviously, the big question that remains is who did this, and when. Gohda and Kumasawa were in there for so long that were was a lot of opportunity for the potential culprit.
Sorry to double-post, but thereâs another mystery Iâd like to throw out there for discussion! This one is a mystery from 1998, but itâs related to our discussion of the numerals 07151129. In addition to containing Battlerâs birthdate, and the possibility of one other date â in addition to being written on the door to the parlor after the murder of Ushiromiya George â they have another meaning which was revealed in this episode. Theyâre a passcode to be used with a card and a key to access a safe-deposit box containing 100 million yen, sent by roundabout means to members of the bereaved families. It was sent to Nanjoâs son, Kumasawaâs son, and Ange herself.
(From the manga, but from what Iâve heard, the manga is accurate to the visual novel. I started reading it to review previous episodes.)
So ⌠what is with that? Iâve been looking at it from different angles, trying to decipher what these facts could mean. Ange recognizes pretty soon that the handwriting on the envelope is Beatriceâs. That means itâs the same person who wrote the bottle messages, and the same person who wrote about magic and the mariage sorcière in Mariaâs diary.
Since she hates Beatrice, Ange assumes the money was sent as an insult, mocking the grieving families by suggesting their lives could be bought with money. But couldnât it also be an act of condolence, or compassion? This could be a case of âwithout love, you canât see it.â From the same evidence, we could interpret the motives of this âBeatriceâ in two very different ways, depending on whether we have love. But it would also change our interpretation of Beatriceâs actions and motives as a whole, if we think sheâs being compassionate here despite her cruelty orchestrating events on the island. Iâm not sure, but itâs something I want to think more on. Who is this pretend Beatrice â the Beatrice of the bottle, the diary, and these envelopes â and what motivates her?
What else can we conclude, though? The post mark on the envelope was October 3rd, so the money must have been arranged before the Rokkenjima killings. That suggests pre-planning. It also suggests Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Angeâs family were always meant to die or go missing. From the variation in the bottle messages, and the variation on the gameboard, youâd think someone like Nanjo or Kumasawa or Rudolf or Kyrie or Battler could survive in theory, just like Eva survived. And then condolence money wouldnât have to be sent to their families. But this âBeatriceâ wasnât betting on that. Why? What does that say about the culpritâs plans, how far they were set in advance, and who they were meant to impact?
Also ⌠whoever arranged this money must have had that money to set aside in the first place. All the siblings were in desperate straits cash-wise before the family conference. (Except, perhaps, for Krauss with his embezzlement scheme.) It doesnât seem like any of the servants should have resources like that, either âŚ
I have one, unlikely idea. Nanjoâs situation is ⌠off. He has one reason to go to the family conference, and itâs to see his old friend Kinzo, and report on his health to the siblings. But Kinzo is dead, and we know heâs dead at the start of all games. Krauss and Natushi could be paying Nanjo off to keep Kinzoâs death secret, and Nanjo couldnât refuse. His highest-paying client is dead and he needs the money for his sickly grandchild. Heâs also keeping a lot of secrets as is, like the secret mansion and any births or deaths that happened there â his conscience must be very heavy. If he were in on the murders, an accomplice of some kind, I could see him wanting to âclear his debtsâ by arranging the money to take care of his own family, and console the others. Heâd go to Rokkenjima expecting to die, but believing he can make amends after his death. Of course, that money never gets used, which is a tragic happenstance.
Nanjo doesnât seem likely to be the author of the bottle messages or to be writing in Mariaâs diary, though. Is there someone else who could behind all three things ⌠?
(Another niggling thought, not related to money â does Kanon have some sort of grudge against Nanjo? In the two instances where Kanon âdiesâ and then seems to reappear, Nanjo dies around the same time. In the second episode, the false-Kanon kills Nanjo and Kumasawa, and in the third, Kanonâs âghostâ leads Jessica away while Nanjo is supposedly being killed, resurrected, and tortured by the witch. Someone else pointed out that Nanjo never dies in the first twilight ⌠so what is going on with Nanjo ⌠?)
Well, thatâs my rambling. Any thoughts from the rest of you?
