By the way, the Episode 4 Tea Party has already started! Current deadline for discussion is the 9th, but I will extend that by a week if needed.
Discuss ! ! !
Genji in a dress.
Or rather why is that the first person they thought about?
Perhaps he has some sort of secret desire we have no knowledge of. In all seriousness, its probably because hes the most loyal to Kinzo. Other than that, I got nothing on why they would think of him first.
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So will the detectives tackle each twilight of each game in light of new reds? Please? 
Come on @Seraphitic! You are the prodigy are you not?
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Not saying whether I like your theory or not, but I like that you are trying to view things from Ryukishiās perspective.
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As in, if we blindly believe in everything that Ange sees, without going āoh this is her imaginationā or āoh this is her being mistakenā then we have to accept that she has imaginary friends who can cut guns in half.
Quite Magical
Fortunately there is already an easy enough explanation, which Iāve went over.
Also I feel kind of sorry for anyone who tries to read the whole thread at this pointā¦ Itās rather long isnāt it?
I think thatās less about any loss condition, and more about what you personally canāt accept.
I certainly hope you arenāt disregarding huge aspects of this Episode just because they are āmagicalā.
Anyway, going back to my last question.
Iām not, but I aaaaaam saying that I have to interpret the scene in such a way that avoids magic existing. I am not merely ignoring all of Angeās story, but I am saying that I need to consider that there may be a lens in front of the camera without my knowledge.
Fragment merely being witchspeak for world does not contradict what Maria says in Ep4.
Her speech is just as poignant and memorable if you treat the world Fragment as meaning āworldā or āpotential worldā.
The better question is this: If Iām correct, magic is not real outside of the Meta and fragment means world. Why does Maria know it means world? If not Maria, then whoever wrote the diary. Why do these human world documents (seen by Ange) match up with the terminology used in the meta?
Two possibilities. First is that Maria learned it from Beatrice, second is that MARIA herself is a meta being.
Speaking of meta beings, how about that scene with lambda?
Isnāt the MARIA that speaks to Ange just the image of Maria that Ange summons when she reads the diary? Therefore if MARIA knows it, it must have been written in a part of the diary (which was written by Maria) that was then read by Ange.
But if she did then the Meta can pass information to the real world, which could be used with an allied witch to spy on people and perform the art of divination. Which is magic.
Therefore I think we have to conclude that the Meta learned the word from the real world. Certain people in the meta show omniscience of certain parts of the real world, donāt they?
The word fragment was used in an ancient magical text to refer to alternate worlds. Maria heard of the text and started using it, while multiple witches in the meta learnt of it and started using it as well. I donāt have to present the magical text, the Umineko World might have a different world history than ours, and anyway, itās a devilās proof.
EDIT: You crafty editing scoudrel
Uuuummmmā¦ Do you mean the ??? ? Or the one where she taunts Ange in the main episode? Those are the main two I can think of. Iām pretty sure the only other scene she appears in is Battlerās revival anyway.
Youāre relying on way too many unfounded assumptions. Umineko has shown us previously that scenes involving magic are known to blend in with the meta, but they donāt necessarily have any immediate connection to reality.
- Ange is speaking with Maria in 1986.
- Maria is dead in 1986.
Therefore: - Scenes in which Ange talks to Maria are fantasy.
- Fantasy scenes do not have a direct connection to reality.
- Fantasy scenes can contain information from both reality and the Meta.
- The Meta has no direct influence on reality.
Therefore:
C. There is no problem with the Maria of 1986 having knowledge of the Meta.
This would only become a problem if Ange started talking about Fragments when talking with someone like Amakusa. Then we would either need to conclude that Angeās entire journey is fantasy, or she really did gain knowledge of the Fragments from reading Mariaās diary.
The latter. I thought it was a very interesting scene.
Personally, I like @pik3robās reading a lot ā it makes sense out of Angeās and Amakusaās conversation about self-satisfaction, and how she can acknowledge magic as existing in someoneās world while remaining agnostic about the existence of magic in hers. And Iām curious about how we can interpret the other information about witches in in light of this.
In the TIPS itās said that most witches only have power over their own Fragment. That makes some sense. āThe power to transform unhappiness to happinessā might work for you, if it makes you happy, and no one can deny that happiness in your own Fragment. But you also canāt make anyone else feel your happiness. Someone else, from their own Fragment, can easily look at your unhappy circumstances and deny it. Perhaps thatās why itās so important for witches to recognize each other in compacts like the Mariage SorciĆØre.
Actually ā this might be what youāre driving at, but who knows ā that could be why Beatrice so needs to be recognized by Battler. Thatās the driving motive of Umineko, isnāt it?
And on that note, I want to draw attention to something that struck me as a little odd ā¦ itās this conversation between Beatrice and MARIA, after Beatrice disqualifies Battler and abandons the game.
Maybe itās just odd to me. But doesnāt it sound like Beatrice wanted Battler to join the Mariage SorciĆØre, as a fellow magic-user? Because thatās not how she acts. She acts like she wants to break Battlerās spirit and subjugate him completely. She doesnāt say anything about teaching Battler magic or making him an apprentice and an equal to MARIA. (Does she? I think she mightāve said something once, like ādonāt you want to try it,ā when she was laughing over EVA Beatriceās treatment of Rosa and Maria.) Overall, she plays like she wants to make him her furniture, at best.
So what Iām asking is: if Battler becoming a magic-user and joining the Mariage SorciĆØre is her endgame, why use such cruel and bizarre and even counterproductive moves? If that isnāt her endgame, then whatās going on in this conversation?
EDIT: Also, why does MARIA say āsomeone close to usā? Ange was close to Maria, yes. And you could argue Beatrice and Battler become close during their chess match, but itās not like they were close when Beatrice first started trying to make Battler accept her ā¦ (Unless theyāre close in a way Battler doesnāt know about, and then Iām back at the mom theory.)
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That would be so hot!
Probably just a āthey had to think of somebodyā thing. Donāt think itās worth looking into personally.
Hmmm, maybe this has to do with the magic scenes possibly. The magic scenes are all the different fragments of individual people. Like, whenever Beatrice repairs Mariaās candy, that can be seen as part of Mariaās fragment. Whenever Natsuhi sees Kinzo in Episode 1, that can be seen as her fragment. If we view all the magical scenes like this, we can probably learn a lot more about one of the characters involved. Itās a start at least.
I think we should be going onto the big question posed at the end of this episode. āWho is Beatrice?ā
I donāt believe Beatrice exists, or has a person in reality who her character correlates to like Ronove and Genji or Kumasawa and Virgilia. I believe Beatriceās āexistenceā is more like the concept of Beatriceās existence. Beatrice isnāt pulling the strings and wants to be put out of her misery since sheās been forced to kill and commit travesties for the last thousand years. However, she didnāt actually commit them, people think she committed them, so in the realities of many individuals, she has committed these atrocities. This taints the image of Beatrice, and since sheās not real, Beatriceās entire image is made to center around these atrocities, and her personality was made to develop around the image these people have of her. Hence, Beatrice has no free will of her own. Her wrong doings are determined by individuals who wish to blame her for their actions. This is why Beatrice wants to lose in the end. If she wins, what will happen to her? She will be blamed for the Rokkenjima murders. This will only add to the list of deeds she has done. If Battler wins, she will not have the Rokkenjima murders thrust upon her as her fault, and her very existence will be denied.
To sum it all up. Beatrice did nothing wrong!
Since Lambdadelta is pulling the strings with Beatrice and apparently gave her her power, itās probably more worth my time to try to think about who she is instead.
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In that case, who wrote the message bottles and the stuff in Mariaās diary?
Itās kinda interesting in the end that when you think about it, a way to look at things is that Battler has actually been trying to prove Beatrice innocent from the let go, without realizing it. If he proves she isnāt real, then she cannot have committed the crimes.
This is really upside down from what a mystery would normally be.
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To add onto Aspiās point, those two (referring to Beatrice and Kinzo) actually had a converstion in that place.
and also: In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human.
You might be able to dodge that second one if honorifics are not used in any of the other reds, by setting up some roundabout rule. Bringing up that the red seems to be a western magic, while honorifics are an eastern practice might be a start.
You do have to explain how Beatrice had a conversation with Kinzo for your Beatrice identity point to stick. Otherwise itās no good, itās no goddamn good!
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What do you make of the scene of Battlerās meeting with her on the game board? If Beatrice doesnāt exist, what is the meaning of the scene?
I think we can reconcile @pik3robās theory ā āBeatriceās entire image is made to center around these atrocities, and her personality was made to develop around the image these people have of herā ā and the mysteries involving Beatriceās handwriting in Mariaās journal and the bottle messages, Beatriceās existence in the hidden mansion in 1967, and Beatriceās appearance on the gameboard. All those things create and contribute to āthe image of Beatrice,ā but Beatrice herself ā the Beatrice of Purgatorio, the Beatrice challenging Battler and playing against him ā did not do these things. Thatās not a controversial statement, is it? Thatās the thrust of what weāre trying to prove. Like @UsagiTenpura said, weāre trying to prove Beatrice innocent. The bottle messages were written by someone, but that someone is not Beatrice the immortal witch. There was a Beatrice in 1967, but she was not a homunculus built to cage a witchās escaping soul, she was a human woman raised in isolation by Kinzo. And someone spoke to Battler who, from a distance in the rain, looked like the Beatrice from the portrait, but that was either a disguise or a somehow unaccounted-for human. (Though with the new red truth regarding the number of people on the island, there are a limited number of avenues left to us to keep looking for unaccounted-for humans.)
Weāre trying to answer two or three questions at once, I think, and the questions may be related.
-
Who is the Beatrice that is Battlerās challenger?
-
Who is the Beatrice that claims Beatriceās name on the gameboard?
-
Who is the Beatrice that lived in Kuwadorian?
For an example of how those questions could be related ā one theory proposed in this (long, long) thread was the Beatrice who lived in Kuwadorian died, like Battler must have died at the end of the first episode, and then Beatrice ascended to the Metaworld, like Battler ascended. This is one way where 1 and 3 could have the same answer.
However, all questions neednāt have the same answer. The Beatrice who lived in Kuwadorian died in 1967. So she is not the Beatrice who writes in Mariaās diary, and it is unlikely that she is the Beatrice who wrote the bottle messages, since the bottle messages involve people who were born after her death. (I know, I myself speculated she might have been, but itās nevertheless unlikely.) And she of course could not be the figure in the rain who claims to be Beatrice and tests Battler. So in that case the answers to 2 and 3 are not the same.
There is another question, which is the question Beatrice actually asks.
- Who is the Beatrice that killed Battler at the end of this episode?
Which could have the same answer as 1, 2, 3, or ā¦ not. There was also an attempt to answer this upthread, where Beatrice is the āconcept of the Rokkenjima killings.ā
Now this would be a tricky question to answer without taking a more metaphysical stance on who or what Beatrice is ā something abstract like āthe Rokkenjima killingsā or āthe image of Beatrice produced by those killings.ā Even if you think a real, living human being was pretending to be Beatrice up until this point, Beatrice clears them off the gameboard with her red truth that at the time of Battlerās death, there is no one other than you on the island.
Iām not saying itās impossible! That would just be an excuse to stop thinking. If the person claiming Beatriceās name set up a trap in advance, and then died leaving Battler alone on the island, thatās one way 2 and the final question could have the same answer. If the Beatrice who lived in Kuwadorian somehow set in motion the killings years and years before they occurred, thatās a way 3 and the final question could have the same answer. But itās worth thinking about all the possible questions, all the possible answers, and whether or not theyāre the same.
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Isnāt it made pretty clear that āthe Beatrice that killed Battler at the end of this episodeā is the same as āthe Beatrice that is Battlerās challengerā?[quote=āpictoshark, post:20, topic:31, full:trueā]
āā¦Ushiromiya Battler. I will nowā¦kill you.ā
āā¦And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.ā
āā¦You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and am about to kill you.ā
[/quote]
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I think thatās a reasonable conclusion to draw.
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