Umineko Episode 7 Full Series Spoilers General

07th Discussion
#24

Of course, we might be looking at coincidences. It is however pointed it just how much experience both Rudolf and Kyrie have. Reliable? Probably not, but at the same time there is no real evidence otherwise (also, magic scenes usually being meant as being somewhat truthful, Rudolf and Kyrie had quite the gunfight in EP3, didn’t they?).

And frankly the whole Chiesta 556 = dead = broken gun thing is merely an interpretation of mine. I was actually sure the broken gun had been brought up before that point in the story, but seems it didn’t. However, without it it feels weird why one of them is dead. Why bother having that detail at all? Sure, the “killed” figurine (I am not even sure whether it was just one), but the double-interpretation is quite delicious.

I was thinking of something else, kinda. Mind, this is an… interesting theory, “interesting” as in: probably completely wrong and somewhat insane, but fun to think about. Kinda like the"original intent" theory I brought up in the general spoilers topic, I like taking different viewpoints to see how far I can go with it.

In this theory I assume that Rosa (for the sake of comedy) and Rudolf (for the sake of the internal logic) had the broken gun. Therefore, Rudolf missing is explained merely by that fact. The text supports as much as well.

This is mostly about Kyrie. Turning the chessboard around (hoh boy did she love that phrase) there is no reason for her to gloat as she did to Eva in the garden, after killing most of the others without wasting any time. Her prediction that Eva had the capacity of becoming a mass murder is quite interesting, beyond us having seen that play out in a gameboard (where, according to the rules, no one was allowed to act completely out of character).

Manga EP8 spoilers once again, where spoiler tags would still make it obvious what I mean.

Let’s see who she got:

  • Rosa (golden room)
  • Hideoyshi (golden room)
  • Gohda (rest room mansion)
  • Jessica
  • George (indirectly through Rudolf)
  • Maria, Kumasawa (?), Nanjo (?), Genji (?), guest house

Let’s see who she failed to kill, in order:

  • Eva (golden room)
  • Yasu (golden room)
  • Eva 2 (garden)

Basic idea: know Fate/Stay Night, or Code Geass S2? Remember that whole “taking on all the hate thingy” that seemed to be quite popular in that timeframe? Did Kyrie do the same? But why let some live, some die?

Rosa: dangerous element, much like Eva, but in the current position far more unpredictable (also, judging by her relationship to Maria, not a good choice to give Ange to)

Hideyoshi: assuming she wanted to allow Eva to survive it all, it would’ve made it so much more difficult for Eva to explain away her surviving had her entire family survived

Eva 1: main premise of allowing Eva to get out of this situation, for the murder on Krauss and Natsuhi wasn’t intended yet. However, dangerous as Kyrie realised. How could she prevent Eva from surviving and yet not killing anybody? Do the EP6-Erika everyone.

Yasu: Kyrie might’ve perceived what was going on with her. Yasu was however injured by the shot, unlike Eva. A way to snap her out of her power fantasies? Ding dong it’s the real world. Killing people hurts them. Case in point, the bullet in your shoulder.

Gohda: alright some slight spoilers I’ll actually tag… I was as surprised as any to see manga EP8 make Gohda out to be a sexual predator. I mean yeah he pretty much sucks all the way through but hell. As someone devoted to Natsuhi (remember that dropped plotline?) he wouldn’t have taken their death kindly

Jessica: had Jessica stayed alive, tensions regarding the succession wouldn’t have stopped. Jessica could rightly claim to be the child of the eldest child of Kinzo, which wouldn’t make for a nice family between the two. Greed can change people, see: Rudolf in that situation.

George (indirectly through Rudolf): same as Hideyoshi; had any of the two survived, Eva would’ve been torn to shreds in the outside world.

Question: how could she know that Rudolf would fail to deal with Eva? His test shot in the golden room. If she is as good as the story claims, she might’ve noted that his gun shoots low.

Maria, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji: no idea, aside removing possible people Eva could kill; however it is also a common trope of those kinda situations, people having been killed in an isolated environment, to spiral out of control with people turning on each other (might apply to Gohda too)

Eva 2: what better way to prevent Eva turning to the dark side than become the perfect monster for her to slay (and removing all the cattle for the wolf to slay)? That entire exchange is somewhat out of character for Kyrie (at least judging by the tea party), as noted earlier, since she killed the others without much warning. And what better way to endear Ange to Eva than to talk shit about her and familiar bonds in general. Knowing how much Eva treasured George, she sure walked over all the landmines there.

For all we know Eva wasn’t even the one killed Kyrie (she fell backwards in the exchange), Kyrie might’ve done it herself. Pure headcanon I guess.

In japanese fiction there is precedent for those kinda events. Take Lelouch at the end of Code Geass S2 or the background story of “All the Worlds Evil” (or smth) in Fate/Stay Night. Taking in all the hatred and dying with it, taking the hatred along for the ride. The Ushiromiya family sure had enough of that flying around.

Now on a scale of 1 to 2.578.017, how insane is this entire post? I am not sure myself. :kinzo:

See, it sure takes you to interesting places, just going wild with ideas. Probably forgot something but that comes with the territory. Should we call this the “Kyrie did nothing wrong (aside literally everything)” theory? How about “it’s the thought that counts!” :cackle:

edit: I KNEW I forgot something. So why couldn’t Rudolf and Kyrie survive? Well, given their background there was no way they’d get away with it for real. Just running off into the sunset might be a tad of an understatement of how difficult that would be, to fear the pointy finger of JUSTICE their entire life.

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#25

I don’t think Kyrie started killing everyone out of anything more than selfishness, but I agree that Kyrie is acting out of character in her final confrontation with Eva, because seriously, if there is ONE character in Umineko where I would consider it absolutely impossible for them to lose because they decided to give a big villain speech instead of coming up with a better way to deal with the adversary, it’s Kyrie. Taking this to its logical conclusion means Kyrie already knew she would lose this duel.

This is why I believe that Kyrie’s gun was jammed or not functional in some way. She did after all fail to kill 3 people with it just earlier (though Gohda does put a wedge in the streak). Perhaps she was also simply out of bullets. Either way, she realized there was no way for her to get out of this alive since Eva was pointing a gun right at her and she quickly confirmed her to have been perfectly capable of killing Rudolf earlier.

So all that stuff she said about not giving a single fuck about Ange was a lie, made so that Eva would feel sorry for her and care for her after Kyrie’s death. Even in her final moments she never lost her cool and went for the best possible outcome. And when her plan succeeds and Eva says she’ll write her into the catbox as having cared for her daughter until the very end, she smiles.

What a brutal irony that even though they were never meant for anything more than to manipulate Eva, Bernkastel ended up showing Ange those cold last words anyways and was led to believe they were true.

If anyone disagrees with this interpretation, tell me, for someone as ruthlessly efficient as Kyrie, was there any reason for her to provoke Eva as much as she did in their final clash?

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#26

Nah, half insane theories aside I agree. Given the moment she stopped using a gun the way you’re supposed to I’d say smashing Jessica’s face in might’ve broken it. Why else would she use a knife in the guest house instead.

#27

I agree with that. The main reason why Kyrie killed everyone has to be the most obvious one: It was the best thing to do in the given circumstances. Any other motive, especially an anti-hero one, would be kind of a disappointment, considering Kyrie’s extremely rational & selfish personality.

I really like the idea that she didn’t mean anything she said about Ange, and the reason for that was to manipulate Eva into taking Ange’s custody. This TP made me really hate Kyrie, but this theory makes her actions at least understandable. If only she chose to give Jessica a quick death instead of mutilating her in such a gruesome way (and boy, that was brutal…) , I would’ve hated her even less. But if she didn’t break her rifle on Jessica’s face, she would’ve won, only because Eva was so hesitant.

Another reason why I love Eva so much. Don’t get me wrong, the fact that she didn’t shoot Kyrie on sight could’ve been her demise, but that only proves how good of a person Eva really is. Behind the mask she wears in the presence of her siblings, she’s a benevolent mother who would become selfless for the family… She cared just enough about Kyrie’s motive, about the explanation, that she ceased to prioritise basic survival instincts that would give her the upper hand. So much that Kyrie even had the chance to point the gun at her.

#28

First of all,

Its not that Kyrie is a bad shot, its that every subsequent shot after Rosa’s murder was a blank. Obviously Kyrie did not know this and just reloaded her gun normally, thinking that it was empty after murdering Eva and Sayo-when in actuality all the last two shots were fakes.
And to cover Jesica, I think that the EP7 novel mentioned that Jessica managed to dodge Kyrie’s attack and fight back a little before Kyrie beat her ass with the gun-something that likely jammed it causing her to switch to using knives, as she really could have shot Maria the way she shot Rosa.

As for Rudolf, I think he only realized his gun was fucked after he shot George-remeber that he and Kyrie were kind of in a rush to kill everyone else so while he did likely notice something after the rest shot, but he didn’t fully realize it until George died. And even if Rudolf had a better gun, Eva likely still would’ve killed him as she had the upper hand (gun was at the ready), and the element of surprise.

#29

[quote]Its not that Kyrie is a bad shot, its that every subsequent shot after Rosa’s murder was a blank. Obviously Kyrie did not know this and just reloaded her gun normally, thinking that it was empty after murdering Eva and Sayo-when in actuality all the last two shots were fakes. [/quote] Kyrie shot Hideyoshi after Rosa. Yasu got injured by the fourth shot (third was Eva 1).Unless of course we’re talking about manga EP8 and it changed some things I wasn’t away of (only read through a synopsis given by someone on animesuki)

Yes, the novel points out Jessica fighting back. I don’t point it out because it is given in the plain text. I merely talked about why killing her at all.

[quote]As for Rudolf, I think he only realized his gun was fucked after he shot George-remeber that he and Kyrie were kind of in a rush to kill everyone else so while he did likely notice something after the rest shot, but he didn’t fully realize it until George died. And even if Rudolf had a better gun, Eva likely still would’ve killed him as she had the upper hand (gun was at the ready), and the element of surprise.[/quote] Rudolf noticed it during the struggle with George, killed him with one or two subsequent shots after injuring and pursuing him. This also points against the blank theory, since he used up the first shot for the test shot in the golden room. By that theory, and assuming hje and Kyrie never realised, he would’ve had only blanks for George.

Rudolf had enough time to try and tell Eva that a three-headed monkey - aka George - is behind her and to get a shot off. Of course, still was in the worse position overall, since Eva saw through it. Rudolf still comments on how his gun shoots low in his dying breath.

#30

The EP8 manga shows that only Kyrie’s gun had the two blanks in it: https://youtu.be/C1jJH4G3N1c?list=PLSKRyR03ySCQBD8b4PTPbeCRqsvfXXg66. Though its possible this was changed in EP7.

It appears that you’re right about this fact. Though I think trying to aim at someone’s head and the bullet shooting at their torso is more noticeable than a wall. Or maybe Rudolf wanted a challenge or whatever. Regardless, the EP8 manga doesn’t show if Rudolf and Eva’s confrontation was the same.

Kyrie isn’t a nice person

#31

See imagine if EP 8 was twisted optimistic logic like this, and wasn’t just sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala.

EP 8 could have been so much more.

Oh, look. I haven’t talked about why EP 7 is the best episode. I should go do that.

brb, going to the other thread.

#32

I really advise you reading the manga version of episode 8. It improves a lot on the story and actually adds a few sections that leads to a more satisfying conclusion.

#33

I am not watching a 20 minute video for one little detail.

So, going merely from what you’ve said: I am sorry but that explanation seems pretty shoddy then, if the manga EP8 version is the same in its events as EP7 TP. Mind giving a clear context as to why her gun had two blanks for the third and fourth shot?

The first two shots of her gun were no blanks (Rosa, Hideyoshi), then two blanks (Eva, Yasu), then no blank (Gohda; Rudolf did not kill him, otherwise he wouldn’t have had to kill George to show his commitment to the entire massacre; no hint of another weapon). How convenient.

I could’ve accepted blanks if an entire gun had only blanks in it (precedent: see EP1 and 2, the gun Natsuhi and Rosa had). This would also allow for a cleaner interpretation of why 556 is dead - a gun with only blanks is kinda “dead”. Just doesn’t work here. I could’ve accepted it if all guns had two blanks as a safety measure (not possible, the guns Eva and Rudolf held both fired 3 and 4 times without a problem) in case the murder game got out of hand.

I could’ve accepted notions of how Kyrie and Rudolf aren’t actually that good with guns, with the future public merely assuming it due to their background. And I presented a half-serious theory that went the other way of saying “maybe Kyrie didn’t want to kill those two”.

But conveniently Kyrie’s third and fourth shot were blanks. Not the first two, not the fifth. Oh maybe the sixth (Eva 2) was a blank too, clearly, whatever the plot of EP7 demands.

Has it been officially released yet in english? No.

#34

I’m actually enjoying this little discussion of ours, heh. Anyway…

As for the gun blanks, Kyrie obviously reloaded her gun as there was only one (real) bullet left in the chamber. The evidence for this can be found here, in the 34:28 to 34:47 mark- https://youtu.be/h79dVlKia1w. After that, she and Rudolf went on their merry way, murdering everyone. And what do you mean by Gohda? Only the adults were in the VIP room.

I’m pretty sure that the video I sent you has a time stamp to the explanation on it. If it’s unclear, then you can find it at the 0:53 to 1:14 mark-https://youtu.be/C1jJH4G3N1c?t=53s.
As for why that particular gun had blanks in its third and fourth rounds…the obivousanswerisplotarmor- I mean, well it was likely just part of one of Sayo’s elaborate murder plans. Perhaps she was planning to use that gun for something interesting. I’m not exactly sure if I can get a reference for two gun blanks, but maybe they can be found in ‘Our Confession’ or something. Maybe she would switch her gun up with someone else’s after the 1st and 2nd rounds were used and then go and grab it back after the 4th round.

I agree that we should all probably wait till Yen Press releases the official Umineko Ep8

#35

Gohda was killed in the mansion by Kyrie, just before they called the cousins. Given that his face had been covered with a bloodied newspaper, and that no other weapon had been introduced so far (knives come later), I can only assume that he got shot. That’s the fifth shot from Kyrie. I suppose she got lucky and grabbed some real bullets for the next round.

Don’t think the trick is used there. Technically I could say no, judging by EP1 and 2 it seemed she favored the whole “let one adult live and give that person a gun fully loaded with blanks” approach. But who can say, if in doubt she might’ve added some new variations to the mix. I suppose we could also try to explain it with ongoing preparations.

You didn’t as far as I can tell, and thanks.

Eh, oh well. The synopsis I’ve read of the EP8 manga (see haguruma on animesuki) otherwise sounded very promising but I guess I now know why I decided to just block out the entire blank business. I guess you could say … where are my sunglasses? It left a BLANK. YEEE- okay fine.

#36

I think you’re misunderstanding something. Kyrie reloaded in the VIP room after the bloodbath was done with. When she and Rudolf left the VIP room, every single bullet in her gun is real. Before she reloaded the blanks existed, and when she left the VIP room, no blanks of any sort existed within Kyrie’s gun. (Sorry for the repetition, just want to make sure that you understand). And the manga also shows her physically grabbing bullets and putting them into her pocket.

Well, Sayo is a fickle person. And its not like she wrote EP1 and 2 the day before (she wrote those months in advance). Its more than likely she thought up of a completely new scenario. She doesn’t have to follow the ones she wrote before-that goes against what we know about her whimsical personality.

#37

For my next trick I shall answer merely quoting myself.

Although, was it said for how long she knew that Battler would return?

On regads to Ange which is a similiar issue: why is she not in the original stories despite merely getting sick shortly before the family meetup? Personally I assume that Ange wasn’t included due to the fallout of Mariage Sorcerie (… sp?) in the year before (see EP4). From Yasu’s/Maria’s viewpoint Ange wasn’t invited to the Golden Land.

#38

Oh, so you did get what I wrote, sorry. (Though its not really luck if Sayo told them about the bullets…)

I think Natsuhi told her during 1985, and then she had a giant mental breakdown.

I think its just because Ange is generally unimportant to Sayo. They didn’t appear to really have much of a relationship, unlike Maria and Beato.

#39

After mulling a bit about the whole blank affair. Although I still don’t particularly care for it, one thing is kinda interesting. Ultimately Yasu’s plans for killing people … ended up saving herself (and by extension Battler, kinda) and Eva. So, although it didn’t extend her personal lifespan that much, the decision to do something (as gruesome as it might’ve been, whatever she exactly wanted to put in motion) allowed her to have a final talk with Battler.

And by saving Battler she allowed a possible future where Ange may or may not have finally met Tohya many years later.

Of course, without those plans nothing might’ve happened either, although the parlor scene of Lion seems to suggest otherwise.

Really? Huh. Interesting.

I’d like to continue that point of discussion at some time since it has been discussed a lot on animesuki. Would like to see what the people here make out of it. Might be better placed in EP4 or General Discussion though.

#40

In the opening scene of EP7, when the Inquisitors of Heresy are trying to arrest the maid, Will gives out the red truth [color=red]“It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!”[/color]

Given that this Episode involves Beatrice’s funeral, wouldn’t it be logical to say as a persona, she’s been discarded? And that the only one who could discard that persona is Yasu herself, who happens to be a servant?

Perhaps I’m just misinterpreting something. Anyone care to explain?

#41

Sorry, but I didn’t manage to understand what your message is here. Are you saying that Beatrice has been removed from the gameboard or something?

#42

I don’t know if I could say she’s been removed from the gameboard per se, but the funeral scene in the chapel is dedicated to her, isn’t it? I just am curious as to whether I am misinterpreting this entire event (the funeral of Beatrice and who could have killed her), or if I am not thinking properly about these things.

#43

I think it would be easier if you just laid out your interpretation of the scene and the implications prior to discussion.