Umineko - Forgery Contents [Heavy Spoilers]

[Karifean]

This topic will contain unmarked spoilers for Umineko When They Cry. You have been warned.

Continuing the discussion from Umineko - Bernkastel Character Discussion:

Umineko - Bernkastel Character Discussion (Full Series Spoilers)

But another important view to consider is why she is in the tale Ikuko and Tohya are writing.

I guess I might as well use this opportunity to bring up that I don’t think she is. I believe that the tales and forgeries do not include any of the metaworld segments. To me the metaworld and the real world forgeries were always two perspectives of looking at the same thing.

Not once during the future happenings is the metaworld actually brought up. Especially during the conversations with the witch hunters, you’d think that a meta element including red truths and an alternate Battler literally engaging in logic battles with a witch would be brought up at some point. But no, the only story parts that acknowledge the metaworld… are the metaworld segments themselves. Ah, actually, there are two exceptions; the Episode 6 Tea Party, and arguably the one time Ikuko uses the red truth in Episode 8. But both of those can be interpreted in different ways.

What do you think?

[ctom42]

Actually it was brought up. When Ange goes to see Ikuko she mentions herself being a character in Episode 4, Banquet of the Golden Witch. Ange only appears in the meta portions of that story.

The way I see it the only part of the story that is not part of the forgeries (or Yasu’s original tale) is the ??? of episode 8.

That’s not to say that I don’t see the fantasy characters as “real”. That is my interpretation through my “mystery” lens, and through my “fantasy” lens the witches are traveling to other fragments causing all kinds of crazy shit.

[Aulin]

I do believe that the tales and forgeries are just as Legend (without the tea parties), stories, when meta starts we start seeing what’s under the story, character motvitations and worries.
Acknowledging the metaworld in the story would be making it a fantasy story, right? That’s why we can’t be sure of it completely, it just depends on which side of the coin you are, fantasy or mistery, that’s what will determine how the metaworld is portrayed and for what do you use it. I think that you can see some parts of the metaworld as Battler reading Sayo’s forgeries when he regained conscience that’s why all the battle for the truth inside his head, that’d be what forms the metaworld up

Ah, actually, there are two exceptions; the Episode 6 Tea Party

Which part of it? I don’t remember the fact that you’re talking about

[ctom42]

Thinking on it a bit more, there is another issue with removing the meta portions from the forgeries. Episode 6 becomes an incomplete story. It cuts out when Battler is in the logic error and never resumes. If the episode 6 tea party is included this doesn’t work either. Readers would suddenly be thrown into a mess of meta-characters they have never seen before. It wouldn’t make any sense, and their conversations flow from existing stuff both in that episode and in the past.

Also look at episode 4. The meta characters appear on the board directly. Not only this, but they reference the meta-world and talk openly, in front of other pieces, about things there. It simply doesn’t work if those segments are not also part of the forgeries.

[Karifean]

Actually it was brought up. When Ange goes to see Ikuko she mentions herself being a character in Episode 4, Banquet of the Golden Witch. Ange only appears in the meta portions of that story.

I just reread the relevant parts of Episode 6 and haven’t found anything like that.

Episode 6 becomes an incomplete story.

Well you could argue Episode 6 is an incomplete story. The story ends in the middle of the first twilight aftermath. I believe the actual story “Dawn of the Golden Witch” written by the Hachijos - and also Metaworld Battler - goes beyond that point, we just don’t get to see it. I’m actually pretty curious where that story would’ve gone…

Also look at episode 4. The meta characters appear on the board directly. Not only this, but they reference the meta-world and talk openly, in front of other pieces, about things there. It simply doesn’t work if those segments are not also part of the forgeries.

It doesn’t work at first glance yes, but figuring out where the fantasy layer of the forgery ends and the story of the metaworld starts is half the fun.

You have similar things like that even if you don’t believe my theory though; like when Natsuhi summons her own Beatrice in early Episode 5 and Beato references Kumasawa being Virgilia. That’s a direct contradiction of how unreliable narration works in Umineko since Natsuhi has no knowledge of Yasu’s magic compendium. The way I see it, it’s the author in the metaworld (in this case Lambda weaving the game) taking liberties and making fun little references that, again, do not actually show up in the forgery written by the Hachijos.

Which part of it? I don’t remember the fact that you’re talking about

In the aftermath of Ange reading the story aloud, back in the realm with “Hachijo Tohya”, she comments about Featherine being in there.

---

To add onto my previous arguments, it is implied that Yasu actually threw several message bottles into the sea, not just Legend and Turn. What unbelievable luck it would be for EXACTLY the first two parts of the story to be found and continued in a different(?) way by the forgers. I’d have no problem with that kind of convenience if it was ever addressed, but it’s not.

[ctom42]

That’s a direct contradiction of how unreliable narration works in Umineko since Natsuhi has no knowledge of Yasu’s magic compendium.

I don’t see how that is the case at all. Natsuhi never brings up that knowledge in front of anyone, nor does it affect how she acts. It’s just a scene the GM shows us. Doesn’t break any of the rules of unreliable narration in the slightest.

What unbelievable luck it would be for EXACTLY the first two parts of the story to be found and continued in a different(?) way by the forgers.

This part I agree with. It’s highly improbable. However I always took those parts to have been tacked on to the story by the forgers to create the cohesive narrative.

One of the biggest problems I have with your theory is that the meta world is the core of Battler’s character arc and progression. I find it much more fitting with the multilevel structure of Umineko for these parts to be Tohya dealing with Battler’s memories. The way he suddenly “understands” everything at the end of episode 5 is very fitting with unlocking the rest of Battler’s memories.

I find the story infinitely more compelling to view as Tohya playing the part of Battler in the tale he and Ikuko write as a sort of therapy for him. This interpretation becomes even more interesting if you subscribe to the Ikuko=Yasu theory, but it works perfectly fine even without that.

I find that the metaworld elements have a lot more weight to them when they are properly tied to all of the other levels, rather than being divorced from the forgeries.

Another core example would be when the goats are tearing apart the island in episode 8. They start spewing theories that are supposed to represent theories on the internet, and many of them have to do with the true forms of the fantasy characters. This doesn’t work nearly as well with your interpretation.

Ange’s entire journey is another part that looses a lot of substance. If the meta elements are in the forgeries then the real Ange gets to read them. Most of the important lessons for her are in those parts, especially episode 8. I find it nearly impossible to believe the suffering and lost Ange reached the exact conclusion the story one did without reading the story, learning the lessons, and taking them to heart.

[Karifean]

I don’t see how that is the case at all. Natsuhi never brings up that knowledge in front of anyone, nor does it affect how she acts. It’s just a scene the GM shows us. Doesn’t break any of the rules of unreliable narration in the slightest.

Unreliable narration in Umineko is always a direct projection of a ‘lie’ accepted or perpetuated by the observers as ‘truth’, as if we, the readers, were part of the group they are fooling. (Edit: Just realized how much of a generalization I made here, no it doesn’t apply to ALL instances of unreliable narration, but that scene with Natsuhi is definitely one of the scenes it does apply to) Something the witness themselves is unaware of has no place there.

It’s not the best of examples though, especially since I don’t believe this scene is in the forgery “End” at all.

---

See it’s not like I don’t think Tohya writing down the tales is therapy for him. It is, but it doesn’t follow the events of the metaworld story. I mean you say it works perfectly fine without the Ikuko=Yasu theory, but Episodes 3 and 4 precede 5 and only during the latter did Metaworld Battler realize the truth. But Episode 3 especially was very obviously written with the truth in mind. I mean I guess you can argue he might have been in the slow process of recovering his memories and wrote this tale without full knowledge of the truth but… eeeeeeh? There’s a ton of Yasu in Episode 3, I couldn’t see someone writing this tale that cohesively without full knowledge of what’s going on.

Even if I claim the metaworld to have a separate plotline, and that the Battler and Beato of the metaworld in particular have distinct character arcs from their real world counterparts, the metaworld is still essentially a metaphysical representation of events that take place in the real world, at least from the perspective of a real world person. Ange’s arc in the final game is representative of the arc she goes through in the real world. The goats are representative of the real world internet trolls. It just isn’t literally written into the forgery (not that I believe Episodes 7 or 8 have any forgery counterparts in the first place).

[ctom42]

But Episode 3 especially was very obviously written with the truth in mind.

As much as I hate to use this as a source, the manga provides an alternate reason why Ikuko would be able to write the truth (Manga spoilers) In the manga Ikuko supposedly finds Yasu’s confession as a third message bottle. It is likely that this confession is the very same as the extra TIP “Our Confession”. Personally I don’t like this answer as much as Ikuko=Yasu, in large part because I feel like it should have been part of the VN if that was the way it was.

he metaworld is still essentially a metaphysical representation of events that take place in the real world, at least from the perspective of a real world person. Ange’s arc in the final game is representative of the arc she goes through in the real world

So basically the only difference between the way we view it is that instead of the metaworld being literally written its just a symbolic representation of how the “real world” characters are coping with things. I have much less of an issue with this interpretation, especially since so much of Umineko is metaphorical representations of things, but I still feel it lacks impact compared to it actually being a written part of the story.

[Renall]

Personally, I see the meta-storyline as interpretive and unrelated to any actual content within the in-world fictions. They’re about analysis and discussion, it makes more sense that they’re layered over it to simulate that. Ange’s take on anything should be viewed with hefty suspicion as Ange herself is an extremely meta-aware character.

A broader issue that I want to address is whether the fantasy layer exists. We know of at least one story that lacks a fantasy layer (Legend), but all subsequent ones have one. Yet do any of the subsequent ones need one? It’s possible they’re embellishments themselves. At the same time, the stories having fantasy elements is supported by at least a couple inferences (e.g. Our Confession going to the effort of designing Flauros makes no sense if the story was just going to blame what happened on a demon and never depict them). It seems odd to me that the community would call themselves Witch Hunters if there weren’t some aspect of fantasy present as well, since a simpler conclusion to draw on the Beatrice question absent any fantasy scenes is that “Beatrice” is simply an alias; after all, outside of fantasy scenes “Beatrice” is never observed to be doing magic.

That said, a lot of the speculation about who was “really” responsible seems odd if we have a fantasy narrative shoving a culprit in our faces. It’s possible Witch Hunters dismiss the magic notion and look for a real culprit but the WHs are never portrayed as especially perceptive people given their ludicrous inability to notice things that should be blitheringly obvious (i.e. how absolutely everything about Kanon is suspicious and he can’t possibly have a confirmed existence IRL).

[budspencer]

Since Ryukishi said in an interview that “The manga is not a personal interpretation it is the official answer to Umineko” i think we can consider the manga canon also. In the end of the second to last chapter of Episode 8 Beatrice commits suicide (which really happened in Prime?) and a second after that immediately she is in Purgatory with Battler and starts playing the game Legend of the Golden witch with him. So that leads me to believe the Meta world is a real Purgatory where souls of dead people gather to find peace (to access the Golden Land which is Heaven). So i think the meta world story is NOT in the forgeries since Beatrice started playing with Battler a few moments after she died (according to the chapter) i dont think she foresaw that ( her and Battlers death and his amnesia at least would be very hard to foresee) in Legend of the witch since she wrote that story BEFORE the incident on Rokkenjima.

Now on the other hand i also think the meta world apart from being a purgatory can also be accessed by living people like Ange and Tohya who have unfinished business so to speak with the people in purgatory (the whole ushiromiya family) and are trying to help the souls in purgatory to reach the golden land (Heaven) and Beatrice did announce to reopen the Golden Land since Battlers soul rejoined them at the end again. Also Ange and Tohyas souls entered it to cope with their own problems in the world of the living. Just my opinion

[budspencer]

Are the episodes 7 and 8 also “written” they are completely different from the first 6? Is episode 7 just a metaphorical representation then of Ikuko asking Tohya (Will) to check the answers to her theories about the Truth of Rokkenjima and Sayo. And episode 8 of Ange thinking “do i want to read the Diary of Eva” and when she did read it basically just was desperate in her heart, overcame it, and asked Ikuko in real life not to make it public. So that would mean episodes 7 and 8 are not really in the meta world just metaphors maybe im just completely wrong.

[Shaedana]

I agree with this afterlife interpretation however Heaven was mentioned separately from the Golden Land. I think GL is some kind of place of acceptance and faith, a sanctuary similar to a church but on the meta plane. It was said that no one could enter the GL without Beatrice’s permission (Ange being the exception) Beatrice is very similar to a “valkyrie” character herself just like Virgilia and to some extend Genji/Ronove as well. Beato is the one single person on Rokkenjima capable of helping these people to love and forgive each other. The scene of her accepting the gold back in ch.8 is very indicative of this. So that’s why she is so directly linked to the Golden Land, and it is important that the Ushiromiyas believe the GL exist, however that is not the final destination to these dead souls.

I think the Oblivion is the exact opposite of the Golden Land. Erika didn’t believe in love and forgiveness and was thrown into this miserable plane of existence. I think she eventually would’ve fallen into hell. I haven’t read the trick ending yet but it was interesting that the narrative mentioned she and Battler never met each other again. It is kind of sad to think that Erika did visit the Golden Land and witnessed much of the same events that Battler did but still refused to believe, or perhaps accept what was right infront of her.

I could go on about Ange and Sakutaro but this isn’t clearly the right thread for this discussion

[budspencer]

Hi thanks for your answer . What do you think about my previous post : Are the episodes 7 and 8 also “written” they are completely different from the first 6? Is episode 7 just a metaphorical representation then of Ikuko asking Tohya (Will) to check the answers to her theories about the Truth of Rokkenjima and Sayo. And episode 8 of Ange thinking “do i want to read the Diary of Eva” and when she did read it basically just was desperate in her heart, overcame it, and asked Ikuko in real life not to make it public. So that would mean episodes 7 and 8 are not really in the meta world just metaphors maybe im just completely wrong.

[Shaedana]

I’m not the most suitable person to comment on that question. I’ve only read the VN once and my view on the meta differs quite a lot from the main consensus. I haven’t yet sorted out everything and I do want to re-read it with better understanding of things, but right now there are few things bothering me about Ikuko:

-She is incredibly arrogant and scorns other people
-She assumed she was right even before Bern gave her the answers. “Eventually people will find out I was right”
-The only goal of finding these answers was to entertain her. She didn’t “need” to butcher Claire, she had nothing to do with these people and clearly lacked love for them.
-These answers were gained by merging different fragments together and removing Battler who knew everything. Will also played his part exactly according to their expectations. If this isn’t a biased setting then what is?
-There was no Golden Land in ch.7. Just a simple funeral ceremony. Bern sure liked to dance on the altar every time she appeared.
-She used the red truth in the human world, which has been said to be impossible on multiple occasions.
-How did she “know” that the truth was written in the diary?
-She is dying in the meta sense yet healthy and young in the real world, this is quite alarming when looking at the conversation Beato, Ronove, Gaap and Virgilia had in ch.5:

IMO Ikuko is what Erika could’ve become. Their attitudes are so similar I first thought they were the same person. The way I see it ch.7-8 are Tohya’s and Ikuko’s battle trying to sway Ange to choose between the two endings (once again, I haven’t read the other one, but hey). They wrote these forgeries together and maybe subconsciously had this fundamental disagreement about the story.

[ctom42]

he way I see it ch.7-8 are Tohya’s and Ikuko’s battle trying to sway Ange to choose between the two endings

I don’t have nearly as negative an opinion of Ikuko as you do, but I do agree that 8 (not 7) was indeed Tohya and Ikuko giving Ange their own advice on which way to come to terms with her grief and move on with her life.

To counter some of your points

She assumed she was right even before Bern gave her the answers. “Eventually people will find out I was right”

The manga has an explanation for this, and prior to the manga’s release there was a different theory about why she knew the truth. Either way she does in fact know it.

[quote]These answers were gained by merging different fragments together and
removing Battler who knew everything. Will also played his part exactly
according to their expectations. If this isn’t a biased setting then
what is?[/quote]

I don’t really see any issues with this to be honest. When you already know the answer you can freely choose how to present it.

She used the red truth in the human world, which has been said to be impossible on multiple occasions.

Did she really though? All the scenes of Ange in the human world, especially with Ikuko, as pretty suspect. I mean considering Ange had no memory of actually going to visit Ikuko, considering the events looped back several times to Ange on the roof, etc. Depending on interpretation it’s all part of the story Ikuko and Tohya are writing or it’s part of world (if you assume the meta world is not part of the story). Either way it’s certainly not the “real” human world.

I’d say there are two major points in favor of Ikuko. The first is that she refused to show the diary to the witch hunters. The second is that she (through Bern) was the one to bring Ange into the tale. I think it’s pretty clear that Bern and Featherine are playing the villain for a purpose, and aren’t really as evil as they seem. Bern guides Ange through the entire story, and though she often acts in antagonistic ways her actions are necessary. After all Ange is looking for someone to hate.

Tohya is the one that turned away Ange, not Ikuko. So Ikuko included messages for Ange in the tale, trying to guide her. Eventually Tohya realizes he should do something for Ange as well, and guides her in a different direction from Ikuko.

Featherine orders the destruction of the golden land and tries to take the catbox and make it into her plaything. However Ikuko does the opposite and brings together the witch hunters merely to scold them all for acting like goats. So why is she the leader of the goats in the catbox? Once again it seems like she is playing the villain, certainly she is preaching finding the truth to Ange, but her antagonistic nature is part of what leads Ange back to Battler, and towards an ending that very clearly indicates the Magic answer is the better one.

I think if you take everything about Featherine/Ikuko at face value then yes she comes off as a spiteful woman that doesn’t care about the heart of the tale. But I can’t see Tohya spending his life with such a person, nor did she seem that way in the final ??? when they met with Ange. Considering her contradictory actions in episode 8 I’m much more inclinded to see her as a figure similar to how Eva was portrayed at the end. Doing what she thought was best for Ange even if it made her seem like a terrible person.

[Shaedana]

Ch.7 was supposed to confirm Ikuko’s theories, not present them to someone. Ange and Lion became observers only during the tea party. How can Ikuko become convinced about the truth with this kind of staged fragment? Why would Bern constantly try to please her? She was seeking satisfaction for her curiosity, how is she any better than the Witch Hunters, Erika or the goats? And if this is just an act then why is she dying and not just her but witches in general? Her refusal to reveal the diary reminded me of what we have seen with Maria - a gleeful child who’s thrilled to know a secret that no one else does.

That said I do think that Ikuko cares about Tohya, and that is why she somewhat wanted to help Ange in a very misguided way. Ikuko probably thought that if Ange moved on it’d be easier for her to let Tohya/Battler go just like what happened in the magic ending. However I seriously doubt she had some reverse psychology scheme going on, that’d make her even more outrageously arrogant.

Edit: I guess my issue with her playacting just boils down to the fact that Ikuko’s not related and Ange was in a very vulnerable situation. Ikuko had no guarantee that Ange would make the right decision and if she had jumped there wouldn’t have been any consequences for Ikuko. If someone is about to kill themselves you do not give them a gun hoping they’d discard it.

[budspencer]

The way I see it the only part of the story that is not part of the forgeries (or Yasu’s original tale) is the ??? of episode 8.

That would be pretty sad right? That would mean we cant be sure if George loved Shannon and vice versa, if Jessica loved Kanon and vice versa since it was all just a story right? Even Sayos and Battlers love and the original italian Beatrice we can start doubting every single thing if its just the authors imagination? I prefer to think of the episodes 1-8 as part the authors take but part also happened in real life (Prime) maybe embelished but still happened.

[ctom42]

But that’s the whole point. Umineko is all about the uncertainty of truth. That’s why it doesn’t present concrete answers. That’s why it continuously reminds us that the red truth does not exist in the human world. That’s why it gives us Gold Truth. Gold Truth is personal truth, it’s steadfast belief without proof. Love is a golden truth. Religious beliefs are a golden truth. Ange believing that her family is watching over her is a golden truth.

You can never know for certain if Shannon and George loved each other, or any of those other pairs. You can only choose which truths to believe in, and which to doubt as forgeries.

[Shaedana]

Love is a golden truth. Religious beliefs are a golden truth. Ange believing that her family is watching over her is a golden truth.

Now pile those three on top of each other and you’ll have solved the gold-coin and cup puzzle in ch.6 No wonder Ryukishi didn’t give the answer to that one!

“For now there are faith, hope, and love. But of these three, the greatest is love.”

[budspencer]

I believe that the tales and forgeries do not include any of the metaworld segments. To me the metaworld and the real world forgeries were always two perspectives of looking at the same thing.

I agree with this quote that the meta world segments are a metaphor of real life “prime” peoples struggles after the rokkenjima incident. However i dont have an explanation for this particular scene then( i hope i am allowed to post links to the manga:
http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni-Chiru-Ep-6-Dawn-of-the-Golden/Vol-006-Ch-025--Tea-Party?id=227131#33
Like i said i also belive the metaworld to NOT be part of the Tales or Forgeries but that particular scene to me is difficult to explain. That would also mean i presume that Bernkastel is also just Ikukos fictional character in a story she wrote and not a “real” witch.
Also this particular scene when literally after a second after the human Ikuko leaves the press conference her cat “turns” into Bernkastel which kinda again leads me to say that Bernkastel is really just fictional and not a real witch even though i would like her to be:
http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni-Chiru-Episode-8-Twilight-of-the-Golden-Witch/Vol-005-Ch-024--The-book-of-the-one-truth?id=231897#15