Umineko Land of the Golden Witch (Original Episode 3) Discussion (Full Series Spoilers)

Hey, why don’t we have some fun speculating about what Land of the Golden Witch might have been like?

This topic is intended for people who have finished the entirety of Umineko and wish to discuss this topic using knowledge from the whole series. For those who have yet to finish Umineko in its entirety, please tread carefully, because there will be untagged spoilers! Please tag references to outside works with the [spoiler] tag, with adequate context provided in parenthesis. Stuff from Umineko, Confession of the Golden Witch, the various Umineko TIPS, Our Confession and Answer to the Golden Witch are all fair game. Anything else ought to be tagged, mkay?

#Translations for all of these are from the Umineko Wiki

From Forgery no.XXX (context is Black Battler and Ronove talking)

“…Battler-sama, welcome back.“
“Ronove. …you seem well. How long has it been since we last met?“
“After Land of the golden witch, I had the privilege to be at your side during Trinity of the golden witch. …No, if we consider that Lady Bernkastel’s gameboard is supposed to be the last…“
“…well. No matter how long it has been, we still just met, haven’t we?!“

[details=From Answer to the Golden Witch (Discussing Land in General)]R: We already discussed that Umineko consists of two different narratives, but if you put it plainly, for the general consumer there is only one. Especially during EP 2 and 3 there seemed to be especially many people who read it like any other story while playing and only saw it as one narrative. If I said it vulgarly, back then there were many who just gave up. I had the impression that there were many people who just said “Stuff like that isn’t mystery!” or “I gave up after Kanon drew his blade!”. That’s why I felt the need to make the story more appealing from that point on.

K: That would be the part at the beginning of EP3, the lecture by Virgilia. It’s true that after the release of EP2 it seemed a little bit like you could bury the idea to regard it as detective fiction laugh. When I looked at some of the message boards back then, I was feeling like, “Eh, they are giving up already?!” about most of the fans.

R: Because of that situation I cancelled the production of what was planned to be EP3, Land of the Golden Witch. Right after we released EP I thought “So, after the proper greeting by the witch, let’s create a real evil, orthodox mystery incident.” but because so many people abandoned reasoning all together I hurriedly changed the whole script. Because it felt necessary to give the player a character who would lecture him about how to think, Virgilia was born. There were plans for a character similar to Virgilia to appear in the story before, but it was to be a more agressive character who later became the basis for Erika.

K: At that time there were already plans for something like Erika?

R: It was a character who would argue with the main characters about reasoning, and become an antagonist, approaching everything from a different point than Battler. It was actually planned to introduce that character at the stage of EP3. At that time it was a man called Vergilius.

K: The name is taken from the character Vergilius in Dante’s ’’Divina Commedia’’, right?!

R: That is correct. But because a lecture like this became severely necessary, I changed the character Vergilius into the woman Virgilia. And because he changed into Virgilia, the connection to Kumasawa was created. At that point I stopped thinking about the character Vergilius at all, but now when I think about it, with a little struggling, you could call him the male version of Erika. Though a little bit more impertinent in her knowledge.

K: At the time of EP2, Battler had a pretty hard time reasoning himself. If Vergilius had appeared then, the plot would have become an even fiercer battle?

R: It became a fierce battle either way, didn’t it? In my head EP1 was supposed to be nothing more than an opening, during which you get to remember the structure of the characters and the mansion. EP2 was to be the beginning of the fight. And EP3 was to mark the beginning of the truly orthodox incidents. I really thought about putting many difficult riddles into Umineko from start to finish, but… I don’t think I would be able to make you enjoy Land, now that all of you have learned about the truth. If the answer is already out, it’s laughable to try and hide it with difficult riddles. At best it would be funny. Maybe you’d think “Hey, that makes up for some of it”. Well that might happen, but almost all of the tricks planned for Land have been divided up and mixed into what became EP4~6. I really hear you asking for a release of Land, but I’m afraid I’m just not able to do that anymore.

K: Among some of the fans there is the idea that you could put it into Umineko Rei (an Umineko fandisc), which was mentioned on the blog on the official page, what about that?

R: I have thought about that as well, even though I have my hands full with my new work, but because it would only be ideas that fans of Umineko would know from somewhere else, I don’t think that my hard work or the enjoyment of the readers would make up for it…

K: So you are returning it to the shelf?

R: Not really returning it, it’s more like it’s an EP which departed on the way. By the way it was supposed to feature a really hard difficulty. Because Virgilia and Ronove had almost no following at all, I thought about making the riddles for EP4~6 an attack on one straight level.
[/details]

[details=From Answer to the Golden Witch (Further Details about Land)]K: So it seems that my deduction of solving EP4 with a single culprit is wrong. However you think about the crime being accomplished, an accomplice is always necessary. So I thought a lot about who would conspire with whom. It is central that Kanon was the 9th victim, so I thought up several patterns that would include that point.

R: The point of “very many accomplicees” was one of the original gimmicks in Land. And I wanted the deception to be that “very many” laugh.[/details]

[details=From Answer to the Golden Witch (Last Mention of Land)]R: I really wanted to write even more difficult parts to be honest. If almost nobody hat succumbed at the time of EP2, I was prepared to show you a really mean scenario with an even worse difficulty.

K: And Land was among those?

R: One of them, yes. It was supposed to be just the vanguard.

K: You told me about this in an earlier discussion, but there was something like “Battler arrives at the island and decides to imprison them all into one room…” if I remember correctly.

R: Did I really say that? Yes, that was one of my ideas. Even though it was a different one than Land.[/details]

Another interesting thing to think about is how the series might have diverged from here if Ryukishi hadn’t changed EP 3 and gone along with his original plans.

My speculations will be below, but I’d love to see what you guys can come up with!


EDIT:

I found something else that I didn’t think of earlier from Episode 8. It’s the dialogue just before the above screenshot, and whether it’s relevant or not depends on your interpretation…

[details=From Episode 8]A: Shut up. I didn’t ask you…! And what the hell do you think you’re doing…?! Didn’t the Golden Witch come here to perform her resurrection ceremony?! Didn’t you appear on the island with a crash of thunder and try to offer up 13 people as sacrifices?! Why are you acting so happy and casual?! It doesn’t make sense!

B: You’re the one that doesn’t make sense. What are you thinking? Do you want me to be a murderer?

A: You wrote a tale about it, sealed it in a message bottle, and threw it into the sea! Two of those were discovered later on…! Both of them were stories of cruel serial murders!

B: What a shame that only two of them made it to shore…! How sad that ‘Land’, my best masterpiece, was never seen by human eyes.
[/details]


Why yes the spoiler warning was just a modified copy paste from Aspi’s threads, why do you ask?

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Black Battler, Virgilius and no Braun Tube Trial analogy? Seems like EP 2 really was just going to be the beginning of the fight!

Something else that interests me is this

and if you remember Ep 5 and 6 had a lot of fake murders (along with the switching trusted perspective trick) and Ep 4 is known for having Battler not really see any of what happened.

A picture is starting to form…

[details=The Fragment of my Choosing]Let’s assume that Vergilius would have actually entered the game like Erika did. Make it simple. Battler spends most of the Episode in the guesthouse as instructed to by the hostage takers as an Ep 4 esque situation occurs all around them with hostages and tests and what not. During this madness Vergilius waltzes right up to the guesthouse introducing himself to the rattled cousins as someone who washed up on the shore. As his presence is unknown he has free reign to investigate as the crimes occur.

Later on Meta!Vergilius reveals multiple pieces of evidence that prove Battler left the guesthouse multiple times, despite Battler’s POV scenes running contrary to it.

Meta!Battler is batshit confused by this revelation, while Black Battler appears confirming it, and cackling about how he is the true culprit for all games. The game continues with more evidence for Battler’s sins stacking up but only being discussed in the meta. Gameboard!Vergilius chooses to confront Battler with all the evidence at a suitably dramatic time, and he finishes his declaration at 24:00, the end time for the gameboards.

In the meta, Vergilius corners Battler, but then Beato bursts into uproarious laughter before dropping the Red Bombshell that Battler hasn’t killed a single person in this game, which throws Vergilius for a loop as he can’t even begin to think of the solution that the entire crime was faked and that no one died.[/details]

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I always found the idea of Land of the Golden Witch very exciting and think it’s a pity that Sayo’s third and presumably best story was never to be found!

It probably was for the better though, otherwise I think Umineko might have received lots of undeserved hate (and I can’t say at all that I dislike the way Banquet turned out as the final version of Episode 3). It’s still a shame though, I wish Ryukishi did actually release it in some form. That cat box will forever stay closed I guess.

I have to say I really like your fragment @pictoshark, I think it’s close to how Ryukishi’s original plans for this episode were. I’d imagine it to be in a similar way with a heavy focus on Black Battler. I believe it’s safe to say Ryukishy would have tried to lead some of the readers (those who already gave up on Umineko being a mystery anyway :cackle:) into believing Battler actually was the culprit (I mean isn’t it weird that he’s always among the few people who survive until the end?). I personally would not have focused on piece battler in this episode too much (as Vergilius takes the role of the detective) and showed plenty of fantasy murder scenes with B. Battler as the culprit. The twist with Battler not actually being Asumu’s son but instead Kyrie’s might’ve also worked a lot better in Land than in Alliance and would have further confused the readers about Battler’s identity and thus made him even more suspicious. :bern:

Other than that I’m not too sad about Ryukishi waiting until episode 5 with the introduction of Erika. However, I’m still curious whether there would be any big differences between Vergilius and Erika.

Christ! Apparently he’d have been even more disrespectful to others? Wow, that’s pretty amazing!


Also, I’d like to highlight something else that caught my eye a little while ago:

You could interpret these lines as Beato deducing that Ange hadn’t read Land from the information that the two bottles she had seen were stories of cruel serial murders.

Interesting…

Was Land not a “cruel serial murder” then?

My guess that the truth behind Land would’ve been something along the lines of the fake murders in Dawn. Maybe the relatives just played a prank on Battler, which would’ve been revealed at the end? A great observation though, I didn’t notice that.

I wonder if Vergilius also would’ve made sure the corpses weren’t fake the way Erika did in that case. :thinking:

Pretty hard to imagine. Also a bit scary to be honest. :smug:

I think Vergilius would’ve been used to set up a similar North Wind and the Sun gambit like with Evatrice tbh. That I believe was part of Ryu’s plan for the meta-plot progression from the beginning and I doubt that changed in the major rewrite.

Hmm, I didn’t quite think of that…

Then again, Battler hounding EVA still fell within his usual methods: arguing anti-mystery.

How would you say he would have fought Vergilius at this point in the story?

If they entered direct conflict with Battler allying with Beato, then I feel like that might be leaping ahead in his development a little bit too much.

Maybe if there was some kind of timeskip between 2 and Land then it might have worked…

Thoughts?

I forgot about the North Wind and the Sun as well and I also think it’s likely that Ryukishi would have used it in Land (he’s quite a fan of this tale and it’s foreshadowed in Episode 1 during Battler’s discussion with Kyrie if I remember correctly).

I think it would have been set up similar to how it was done in Banquet. I can think of the scenario that Beatrice was initially quite pleased with the idea of teasing Battler with the Battler culprit theory. The early part of the story could have included fantasy scenes featuring B. Battler carrying out the murders with Beatrice’s support, however, at some point she would start pretending to show sympathy for Battler and disapprove of Black Battler’s way of carrying out the murders. The latter would continue his cruel murders without Beato’s approval though (much like Evatrice in Banquet) and in addition Battler would be continuously cornered by Vergilius’ accusations. Beatrice would start defending Battler and after purposely holding back for a while, she would then deny Battler’s involvement in any murders in red right at the end of the story.

It’s probably not a perfect way to do it, but it might have gone in that direction.

Another thing that we seem to be ignoring is:

Which seems to make it unlikely that Beato would say Battler wasn’t involved in any of the murders, because Black Battler seems to also appear in another unseen episode.

Then again, maybe he would have resurrected when the possibility of Battler being the culprit emerged once again in a new episode.

For example, this idea (maybe this was Trinity?) seems like it would work with a Battler culprit theory too…

If Battler wasn’t given the Braun Tube analogy until Chiru then I also wonder if there would have been a big climatic confrontation to close off the question arcs like the one we got in EP 4.

I wonder if there even could have been such a thing…

I wonder if Ryukishi was planning to include the whole Braun Tube lecture in the first place. I always found it a bit strange and unnatural that Battler was completely overwhelmed by the magical scenes in Banquet (like Beatrice vs Virgilia). It’s not like he believed in Beato’s explanations of the murders in Episode 2. He already disregarded her narration as fantasy and made his own theories. Him suddenly not knowing how to deal with those fantasy scenes is weird (but necessary in order to warrant the introduction of Virgilia).

I think Battler was originally meant to make out better ways to argue back by himself and just naturally become better at the game that way. Maybe Ryukishi would still have introduced some supporting characters in Episode 4 to help him out a bit, but I see no reason why the “showdown” in Alliance shouldn’t have been possible.