Umineko Spoilers General

07th Discussion
#229

I do believe Ryukishi massively second-guesses himself, but much of Episode 8 is indeed about Umineko itself, and the relationship between the work, the creator, and the fanbase. Don’t get me wrong, of course I love and respect the man, but Erika and the Goats are very clearly meant to be representative of parts of the fanbase. While Ryukishi has always had a close relationship with his fans, due to this close relationship he’s also witnessed a lot of terrible, bullying responses from readers and netizens- To the point where he almost stopped writing Higurashi after Ep6 due to 2chan’s response to it. The way the public responds to the Rokkenjima massacre is very clearly meant to parallel the fanbase, and I think Erika’s reactions to the Love Duel in Ep6 also establish a parallel with many of the readers at that time.

You can totally argue that the Trick End (since we are perhaps leaving the Bad End term out of it) acknowledges that there’s no wrong option, but… I disagree. The Trick End is portrayed as the wrong option, as in, the events that occur in it are wrong to begin with. The setting is wrong, being in a situation that’s been established as impossible, Ange’s actions are wrong, both immoral and irrational, and she’s being equated to a character who’s downfall was being so sure of herself despite being completely wrong.

I won’t use the term Bad End in fairness, but I personally do think of it as a bad end. In the Trick End, Ange refuses to learn anything from her experiences, and comes to the conclusion that “the truth isn’t worth anything.” So, she ends up living in a scenario in which there is no truth, sliding into complete unreality as shown by Erika physically manifesting with her on the boat. I don’t think that the Trick End is badly written at all, but I do think it is a “Bad End” in that it isn’t a happy ending, and I do think it is meant to comment on the kind of player who would pick Trick over Magic.

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#230

She presented the circumstantial evidence and her conclusions, what was the irrational part of it?

#231

That’s one way to interpret it, but you could also see it as picking “truth” over magic.
[color=red]Magic, in the truest sense of the word, does not exist.[/color] This is undenaiable within Umineko’s story. I don’t think anyone would say that it’s fair to call people “unpleasant” just because they value truth over finding comfort in cheap parlour tricks. What Beato does at the end [color=red]Is nothing more than a parlour trick.[/color] Refusing to acknowledge it as “magic”, I would argue, isn’t the choice someone who thinks

would make.

As a content creator, I’m sure Ryushiki wouldn’t equate people who respectfully disagree with his opinion to people who are just being assholes.

Although I usually hate strong words like “wrong”, since I think there are very few objective facts in the world, even I agree with your repeated use of the word wrong to describe the bad end. And that’s what I liked so much about it. It, literally, just felt so wrong.

Both of these are subjective concepts. I would think it’s fair to argue that she acted in self-defense based on proper reasoning. Yes,

this is a fair point, and that part is what changes the scene into something that felt truly “wrong.”

Of course, these are really just two different interpretations, and even I don’t completely agree with some of the arguments I’ve presented, but I can at least see why people would think that way, and I don’t think it’s an unfair position. For me, the difference between choosing trick or magic isn’t even really indicative of whether you value truth, or anything like that, since it’s made so obvious which choice Ange is supposed to choose, and if you interpret “magic” as “anything that could be interpreted as magic”, like they do at several points in the story, then based on which interpretation of the word “magic” you use, both answers could be technically correct. I basically just think choosing “trick” makes you …"that guy". Nobody likes that guy.

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#232

Of course it’s a parlor trick, nobody is denying that. But still, picking Trick here is framed as a “bad” choice. It’s meant to mirror Erika vs Maria in Episode 6- Again, producing candy from the cup while Maria’s eyes were closed wasn’t true magic, it was a parlor trick. But Erika choosing to go ahead and reveal the truth just for the sake of it was an ignorant and cruel thing to do. Sure, Erika made the truth known, but that was totally unnecessary because everyone, even Maria, kind of already knew. Choosing to reveal Beatrice’s harmless parlor trick as such was unnecessary, everyone was in on it together, and there wasn’t anything to gain from it besides the smug satisfaction of having seen through it, which isn’t an impressive feat to begin with. (Like you said later, it makes you into that guy, somebody who’s pretty unpleasant, if you ask me.)

But that isn’t who the Trick Ending is meant for. Sure, choosing between “Magic” and “Trick” is symbolic of the question of whether “magic” exists, but, in context, it’s choosing between revealing the truth behind a bit of harmless play to others who already know the truth, just for the satisfaction of not doing so, or playing along. The context in which you choose the ending is not about whether a witch killed the Ushiromiyas or anything pressing or important, it’s over something small and simple, a situation where it would just be petty to expose the truth.

I’m in complete agreeance with you there, but I don’t really even think that makes the Trick End into anything that exceptional.

Again, I agree entirely, and that’s why I consider the Trick End to be a Bad End. But I don’t think it’s anything exceptional, and I definitely don’t think it’s nearly as important or good as the Magic End.

(As for whether or not Ange committing murder was justified- Sure you can say that her killing Amakusa was self defense, but she admits herself she had no reason to kill Kuwabata. There was no evidence one way or the other that Kuwabata was anything but innocent, but it was simplest for her to kill him anyways. This isn’t really related to what we’re discussing, though.)

((Reverie, I answered your question via PM.))

#233

This might be a little off topic for this thread but can you elaborate about 2chan’s response to Tsumihoroboshi? Higurashi was complete before I even got into R07’s works so I know almost nothing about the fandom response to new arcs

#234

Never heard of this one, got more info?

Edit: I see someone already asked, I hadn’t scroll down to the end, ah.

#235

You know, when I first read Umineko, there was a big part of me that rebelled horribly at choosing the magic ending. Because, no matter how you dress it up, no matter the context, [color=red]it’s still a trick.[/color] Under most contexts, this kind of choice wouldn’t actually make the person choosing trick that guy, it would rather make the person choosing magic wilfully ignorant. Under most contexts, this question would equate to nothing more than Ange not being able to move on unless she closes her ears to the truth and just tells herself “magic is real!” But, this choice really shouldn’t be seen outside of the context of Umineko, so I ultimately agree with you.

This is really the only part where we’ll have to agree to disagree. I just think that the bad end is so well written that the good end can’t really compare. Yes, if only the bad end existed, Umineko would suck, yet if only the good end existed, the only thing the story would lose would be the bad end itself. But, both endings exist, so just comparing one against the other, and keeping in mind that the good end is the canon ending and the bad end is not, I just like the bad end more.

#236

Question: What hint is there in the Question Arcs that Battler’s sin was breaking his promise made to Shannon? I know that the way the story is written, a clever player can figure out everything in the Question Arcs, and that the Answer Arcs are just extra hints, which implies that even Battler’s sin can be reasoned out from the Question Arcs, but I can’t recall what that hint would be.

#237

I don’t think that standard of cluing is met here. There are plenty hints Battler forgot about some sort of promise. The only promise we ever really explicitly learn about is the Shannon thing. That’s about all there is.

It’s not provable, but at least guessable.

#238

In Ep. 3 Beach scene, people mention Battler used to be into Shannon and used to talk to her in english. During Ep. 4 phone call, Beato tells him to “talk me in english, isn’t that your specialty”.

People actually figured that pretty fast and hence the Phony theory was born.

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#239

Phony theory? I haven’t been around the community that long, so I don’t know to many old theories. I’ve only heard of ShKanontrice and Rosatrice, and I don’t even know any details of Rosatrice aside from the obvious.

#240

It’s not so much hinted at as it is “confirmed” via process of elimination. The only time we ever hear anything specific about Battler’s actions 6 years ago before Ep4 is the pony promise talk in Ep3 - and given how much emphasis is placed on Beato’s test and the lack of foreshadowing for anything else, there are never really any other possibilities in play from a narrative standpoint.

Beato asking him to remember his sin is sorta like an “all clues have been presented” scene, tonally.

As far as Pony Theory goes - I wasn’t around at the time, so I don’t know for sure, but I believe it was that Beato was another servant who swapped places with Shannon from time to time? So when Battler thought he was making his promise to Shannon, he was really talking to a young Beato… I think.
Maybe someone who actually knows what the theory was about can elaborate better than I can? :blushing:

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#241

As others have already stated, there is a decent amount of hints in the first four episodes that allow you to reach that conclusion if you are able to piece things together.

Off the top of my head:

  • The emphasis on Shannon’s strong memory, such as remembering things from six years ago like they were yesterday. Also, Shannon randomly asking Battler whether or not he can remember anything from six years ago, as if asking for confirmation from him while the cousins were on the beach.
  • The cheesy lines Battler used on Shannon in the past, which may seem insignificant and silly at first, are actually very significant once you learn the truth.
  • I believe Battler himself mentions in episode four that he had a crush on Shannon when he was younger.

And there’s probably even more than that.

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#242

I would post the Phony Theory pic, but alas I can’t find it. I think most people didn’t suspect that Shannon was Beato because “Shannon” was in love with George. The theory also didn’t foresee the incest.

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#244

I can’t keep it to myself, though I know you will TOTALLY disagree :wink:

The whole story is about a person that has lost his/her memories. That is already hinted at in Episode 1. “You guys remember 6 years ago? My memory is all fuzzy.”, “My memory of twelve years ago are quite vague” (a line that appears in Episode 4 JUST AFTER the issue with Battler’s memories), “please don’t make me remember!”, “if she is right and my memories are wrong, whose memories are these scenes that keep flashing through my mind?”, you also have magic spells: “Come, remember!” and the lyrics where it literally says that the fragments are someone’s memories and last but nor least: Battler’s “test of atonement” is to recollect his OWN memory fragments, since two “stories” are mixed up in Umineko, that is: one part of the memories belong to person X, the other one to person Y.
So, starting Episode 1, we are literally brought back to the past -we are inside someone’s memories (“Those are complete worlds, well, they may feel like memories to you”). It’s the VERY SAME issue as what happens in Episode 8 with Ange - hints for that can be found in Episode 1, Episode 4, Episode 6, Episode 7, Episode 8 and Tsubasa.

What’s interesting now is: actually, Battler didn’t make a promise to Shannon (at least not the way it is presented). If you read Episode7 CLOSELY!, you will notice that. We have the witch of Illusions at work here, and it really is a witch of ILLUSIONS! Many events that you observe in the story didn’t happen like that. If you read Episode 7 and the hints closely, it becomes obvious that he never made that promise with her. I know everyone will disagree :wink: But what Battler truly forgot is already told in Episode 4, right after Beato told him that his sin was to forget “something” and she would immediately forgive him if only he remembered that.:stuck_out_tongue: (Well actually the hints are already there in Episode 1)

Therefore: The foreshadowing with there being something he forgot is there, that it was a promise to Shannon - not so much - as that is a cover-up-story written in order to fool the observer.

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#245

Now, that’s intriguing! I really need to read Umineko once again thoroughly to discover this new layer of interpretation when I will have some time to dedicate to this huge task…