Umineko Spoilers General

07th Discussion
#208

As i said before, but I doubt you read everything. You’re completely wrong here. I was truly aware of the Shaknontrice theory, even the first time I read the novel (and I’ve continued thinking Shannon/yasu was the culprit even 3 years after I read it for the first time)
As you said, I was also thinking about Shannon being the culprit and this is were you don’t understand.
I went back through the story to test the limits and then I noticed ALL the hidden hints.
Don’t take it wrong here : Umineko is obviously more than just a story and the beauty of the story of Yasu (mentally and psychologically) I understood that.

BUT, if you go further, read it again, try to find additional clues, you’ll see that actually the story of Yasu is something … I don’t know how to say … it’s way too easy and it’s really like the truth is given on a silver plate.
How many people said to me “Episode 7 shows the truth of Shkanontrice, you don’t have to think anymore, the culprit is given, …”

For the 200 hours of reading and all the references, there were things missing in this story compared to the rest of Umineko.

For example : No one ever paid attention to the music. But the music went really really far actually and it’s giving you so many hints. … Well, if you really understood the true story of Umineko you would instanly have known that the music is one of the main keys. That’s the first thing that is missing in Yasu story : the link with the music, there, is … obviously wrong. No, in fact it’s done on purpose.

I feel a bit like Lambda in EP 8 : when Featherine asks her what’s the best script between hers and Battler’s, she says “I’m sorry but Battler’s is 100 times better”.
This is my feeling. But as it is shown, I’m nothing compared to all the shkanontricers who will “protect” this truth until they die.

Oh and, saying that Episode 7 is wrong. It’s not free like that, there are really concrete clues which show that and explain why Episode 7 was written (there is obviously a goal). And obviously, there are clues that the whole Episode 7 is a game without love = yasu story is not the truth (link it with the “something is missing”)

I would like to finish on Clair’s song : der Vorleser, because I was tallking about music.
“It’s the star’s final act. This is my exit, but still, I cannot sing the truth”
“Footsteps ring across center stage that just plays a song of beautiful illusions.”
“Even if the blade reaches my lungs, I will NEVER speak the truth.”
“I am just a reticent reader”
…
This song is truly a confession : she is confessing that what she was reading is not the truth. I’m really open minded concerning interpretations but here it’s written clearly : “I will never speak the truth”
Meaning that the story of yasu she told is a lie …

“I am just a reticent reader speaking after the witch, reading aloud from the witch’s script”
“My hair flutters, and when I open up my mouth, I tell a red-stained fantasy.”

#209

[color=red]Everything told in EP7 were facts[/color]
However, as Will explains in the opening, stringing facts together is not the same as discovering the truth.

#210

I, too, enjoy watching Rick & Morty.

2 Likes
#211

People, wish you have heart to find an angle. People, wish you are wrong if i’m mistaken. However, win when the statement : there are no illusions though . What is darkness?

#212

I seem to recall Ange herself bringing this up at some point, no? Doesn’t she confront Battler with the fact that Kinzo’s already dead as a basis for “this Halloween party is complete bull”?

I have literally no idea what you’re trying to say with this post, sorry.

#214

Sorry but I understand very little of what you’re saying here.

Nothing you said in anyway went against Shkanontrice. Episode 7 never explicitly stated the truth, even though it may as well have. Claire is the person who narrates Yasu’s story while still presenting it as a riddle by explaining everything with magic. She used illusion to guide the audience toward the truth without being able to present her heart herself. Even Will kept the answer hidden from readers if they do not already have it. If one knows the answer, Episode 7 confirms it. If one does not, Episode 7 provides just another hint. Until the very end nothing is explicitly spelt out until the manga’s release.

I do not understand why you choose to be so cryptic. The reason why Shkanontrice stands is because it makes the most thematic and (I believe) logical sense on a reread. I do not like all the explanations that Shkanontrice entails, but at the end of the day I do not believe there exists another theory that fits the narrative as perfectly. If you believe you have a theory that fits the story better, present it so we can judge it for ourselves. This is starting to feel incredibly one-sided. You are claiming that the official answer is wrong without giving us the opportunity to scrutinize your answer the same way.

4 Likes
#215

Do you realize Agatha Christie literally wrote a story similar to this. And Then There Were None is one of her more famous novels, they even mention it in Umineko itself!

To a degree, yes, but we knew that already, Clair’s story is a “lie”. It’s Yasu’s life under a veil of illusions and love. Not only that, but there is another more hidden truth that she never intended to reveal: She never killed anyone and the Ushiromiya massacred each others.

3 Likes
#216

This is actually a piece of evidence for supporting another theory of mine, I’ll bring it up for discussion when the Chiru teaparty reaches EP8

#217

I can’t believe what’s happening in this thread. I can’t help but be curious, is it really that there is something to find in the story beyond Shkanontrice and that you guys have found it ? A small thing like what’s said about EP7 at the end of EP6 is something I always ponder a bit when I reread Umineko, but I never thought there could really be much to it.

Now, I have to say, I am a huge lover of Shkanontrice because it is in my opinion such a beautiful solution, that the story treats with such a beautiful care. But if it is possible to find something beyond that still fits the story and doesn’t harm the beauty of Shkanontrice as long as you want to believe in it, now that would make Umineko even more incredible, and may be I didn’t not even dare to think that Umineko could be even more incredible than it already is.

So I am very curious, and if there is such a thing, I can understand why you don’t want to hand it to people on a silver plate, il would ruin a bit the point of the thing. I think the only reason what you’re saying can irritate some people is exactly because of what @Ellixer said.

3 Likes
#218

“I went over this in EP8 and between when they are in the witch’s tea room talking about the lack of a Reader, the start of Bern’s mystery and the first intermission, I did not see these lines. Are you perhaps referring to another scene?”

I am not sure, can I post images in this forum that have a copyright or will my account get deleted then? I am referring to these lines: “ittai dou nattendayo? Arashi no kotou satsujin jikentaa yo, oatsuraemuki ga sugiruze.” (I quoted from the original manga), that is translated as: “What the hell is happening ? A murder incident on an island isolated by a storm? That is too convenient.”

I meant this scene, the beginning of Bern’s game in Episode 8.

“I don’t know if the first part is required to understand this next part, but since the Halloween party in the beginning is pretty long I don’t know what I’m supposed to be looking for (especially if its a small detail). If the riddle with cheese has do with this next part I’m missing, then it’s even harder to grasp.”

Hmm, I’m going to rephrase this one, but then I want to leave it at that: Skip this issue with Episode 8 for the moment, look at the saving menu in Umineko and the cheese riddle in Episode 6. I think you’ll get the idea. Maybe I’ll add just this: “Even if you have the power to cut through the ocean…” (Beato, Episode 4). And that’s it. Nothing more from my side for now :stuck_out_tongue:

#219

Shkanontrice is as an inherent part of the story. It is all included there afterall and even explicitly explained in Episode 8 manga. Therefore, it will always be a part of Umineko. To say otherwise would be like saying Episode 3 doesn’t exist or something.

Still though, I will repeat what I said before: There is a solution for the games that you have to figure out by yourself. It’s a game afterall. Umineko is REALLY awesome! :wink:

@Narda - where are you?:wink:

#220

Oh, like a headcanon!

I mean, go right ahead then! I assumed you guys were talking about something else. ^^

#221

I’d like to hear it as well. I have no idea what they’re trying to get at. Shkanontrice was a solution that we have to worked out for ourselves. Episode 7 was tinted with magic and pretty easy if you’re already on the right track, but there are a great number of unanswered questions that were only revealed in the manga. Ryukishi have said that he did not include the full answer in the game, but felt that since it was several years after the game was finished and people had a chance to have a go at it already, he felt more comfortable giving a full answer in the manga. Other issues as far as I can tell have either been non-problems or have already been answered by others here.

I’d love to hear this answer, open it up to scrutiny and see if it can hold up to examination by a larger number of people, but I’m really not sure where they’re going with this. The whole time I’m sitting here wondering if Rosatrice is making a comeback or is there a more impressive alternate explanation at last, or one that works even with the manga around, but I’m really not seeing where they’re going with this.

#222

I see, I went to check in the VN not the manga. Guess that part is different, but considered acceptable by R7

If the hint with the cheese riddle is the same as the coin riddle that immediately follows, then I got that one when I first read EP6

#223

The coin riddle and the cheese riddle are certainly hints, but they are referring to completely different aspects of the story. Yes, the cheese riddle is obvious, so that you can even understand its meaning the first time you read the VN. But to try it out, you need to read it a second time.

#224

The Umineko Chiru thee parties seem to generate fewer post compared to the previous thee parties. I always liked reading all theories and discussions on the forum and I’m saddened with low amount of them.

I wonder why this is the case.

It could be that many people have dropped of with Chiru, or maybe most of the discussions have moved to the Discord server. Another option could be that Chiru just doesn’t offer enough new material to theorize with. Does anyone have any idea?

#225

There doesn’t seem to have been much discussion on it, but what does everyone think of the bad end?
I know a lot of people over on Kaza don’t bother with bad ends, or hate them in general, and I’m not sure how the population of Rokkenjima feels about them, but I think the Umineko bad end at the very least was a work of art. Not to say that the rest of Umineko wasn’t a work of art, but if forced to choose, I’d go so far as to say that the bad end was better than the good end. I think Erika got kind of phased out as the bad guy in a few ways near the end, but the bad end really reinforces the Battler VS Erika story, and it was nice to see Erika get more lines and have some time to reflect.

#226

See, I had the opposite reaction to the Bad End. It felt to me as if the Bad End was just a short scolding delivered to the player for being so heartless as to pick it. Ange murders some of the only people who’ve ever helped her in cold blood, one of whom was very likely innocent, and it ends with Ange basically becoming Erika, who while very popular is more or less the perfect example of exactly the kind of person who wouldn’t “get” Umineko. Not to mention, the whole Bad End scenario in and of itself is non-canon, as Ange couldn’t have survived the fall from the roof…

I love Episode 8, but honestly I never would have considered the Bad End to be one of its highlights. To me, it kind of just felt like Ryukishi’s last chide towards the more unpleasant members of his fanbase.

1 Like
#227

Is there sufficient evidence to say that the endings were exclusive in the first place or that the Bad End was a Bad End?

#228

I don’t think Ryushiki is so arrogant as to tote the idea that the readers who disagree with the viewpoint he presents are “unpleasant members of his fanbase.” Quite the opposite, I think he often looks back at his own work and wonders aloud as to whether he’s right at all, which is something I can really respect. I think the bad end addresses that - it’s saying that there’s no “wrong” option. The opinions of people, and even the nature of reality, are infinitely flexible and subjective. Of course, Battler, Beato, and everyone else were trying to push Ange towards one particular option, but that’s because that option would lead to a brighter future for her. And like that, I think the bad end helped me at least, appreciate the good end more as well, as bad ends usually do.

That’s pretty much what I was just getting at. I’m not entirely convinced that the bad end was meant to be a “bad end”, but rather, just an “alternate end.” I still call it a bad end because like @mrdent said, it wasn’t canon.

Of course, it not being canon doesn’t mean it’s not worth looking at, and considering an end of some sort on it’s own.