Im always confused with real life Anges timeline or chronology of her life events. So after Eva dies she goes to search for answers. But then in episode 4 she gets in an ambush organized by the Sumadera family where the Stakes (probably just her bodyguard) kill everyone who tries to kill Ange. But in the magic ending that never happens.
Also in Episode 6 she meets Ikuko in real life but she says that something is weird and that she has no memories of that conversation like this scene shows
:http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni-Chiru-Ep-6-Dawn-of-the-Golden/Vol-006-Ch-025--Tea-Party?id=227131#35
But in episode 8 she again claims to have talked with Ikuko and she also says that they spoke before ONCE and Ikuko also claims they spoke before. So when exactly did she give her the diary because she clearly didnt get the Diary from Ikuko in the first meeting that âneverâ happened? And how many times did she jump from the building LOL
The thing about Ange is that she is split up into two identities-Ange Ushiromiya and Ange-Beatrice. Ange-Beatrice was created by Tohya, and thus is considered to be an entity seperate from the original Ange, just as how Shannon is considered seperate from Sayo. Ange-Beatrice is the one who was able to overcome her past, managed to understand Beatrice, and eventually met an untimely end.
EP6 is where things get weird however. During the events between EP4 and EP6, Ange was able to read the forgeries created by Tohya and Ikkuko, and likely decided to adopt Ange-Beatrice for herself. Hence why ANGE in EP6 refers to herself as an âapprentice Witch of Resurrection,â instead of THE 'Witch of Resurrection.'
Because of this, Ange would technically posses Ange-Beatriceâs memories as she has read the EP4 forgery, but would not contain the development she got in EP4 as she is no longer under Tohyaâs possession. This also explains why Ange Ushiromiya remembers her meeting with Ikuko and not Ange-Beatrice as they are separate characters.
As for EP8 Iâll get back to you on that in a bit, but what I can tell you now is that Ange only jumped from the building once. Her meeting with Eva was at the end of her journey and Ikkuko decided to switch it around. Sorry if my post was a bit rambling.
Edit: It should be noted that Ange-Beatrice in EP6 is somewhat under Ikukoâs possession, but it isnât completely under her ownership.
Thank you for your answer. You said âAnge-Beatrice is the one who was able to overcome her past, managed to understand Beatrice, and eventually met an untimely endâ. What do you mean by untimely end? Also i didnt understand exactly what you meant why one Ange remembers her meeting with Ikuko and one doenst could you elaborate on that if possible?
Ange-Beatrice meets her death in two ways. One is being shot by Amakusa in her family members grave, the other is in the Meta-World being torn apart and fried in the witchâs furnace.
Basically Ange-Beatrice and Ange Ushiromiya are two different people. Ange-Beatrice would have never met Ikkuko as Tohya would not have written her to be. Ange Ushiromiya on the other hand, did meet with Ikkuko.
I see so you are of the opinion that Ikuko and Tohya (or just Tohya) literally wrote every Meta character in the forgeries. Basically your saying that all the meta characters (or you think just Ange-Beatrice) and the meta world are not ârealâ but literally just something Tohya and Ikuko (in the forgeries they wrote) just made up and wrote them in the story. I always thought that the Meta World and the meta characters are partially in some episodes the âsouls or spiritsâ of the Rokkenjima victims and also partly a metaphor for all the things (like Anges struggling in episode 8 with accepting the ârealâ truth of her parents being murderers) that are happening in the ârealâ (prime) world.
I personally think the Meta is a combination of all of those things. While Tohya and Ikuko are clearly in control of every Meta character, there are a lot of implications in the story to suggest that the Meta is also a spiritual journey and a metaphor for real life, such as Meta-Battler having amnesia in EP1-4 and Ange jumping off the building and dying in the sequence when she learns of the truth.
Its one of the most interesting and creative parts of Umineko, tbh. Which is why I like it so much even if the Meta storyline can get muddled.
By the way what about the episodes 1 and 2 then which were clearly written by Sayo and not Ikuko and Tohya? So did she also write the Meta Parts in her stories and Ikuko and Tohya just copied her style i presume. But then again the manga episode 8 suggests that the Meta existed EVEN BEFORE episode 1 even happened which then again confuses me completely
I think meta is supposed to be open to interpretation in regards to whether it exists or itâs a part of the stories that Ikuko writes. Like, there is no clear answer and there isnât meant to be one. I actually like that approach, it reminds me of stories like Alice in Wonderland and all that.
In terms of a lore-sense, the Meta exists. Technically, every human being on Earth could access the Meta in Umineko as everyone of us as a chance to become a witch. However it is unknown if Sayoâs version of the Meta existed before she wrote EP1 and 2-which is what Tohya and Ikuko copied as well as Confession/Our Confession.
As @Doldod said, the Meta is basically Wonderland.
Brought up some thoughts after re-reading Ep6 on Discord today.
Aspirety - Today at 6:21 PM
Itâs kind of ironic how the final answer to Umineko is inherently anti-mystery
By that I mean, shkanon
I think itâs valid for many mystery zealots to be angry about how Shkanon is offered as the solution
The answer to the EP6 mystery is very mean
But I think thatâs all too telling of the truth battler reached
Umineko isnât something which can strictly be analysed as a true mystery
It requires empathy.
Ep6 at itâs heart is, a battle between hard truth and the truth of the heart
Damn finding the right words is tricky
Erika was resolute in her stance that there is only ever one truth, and it does not require any kind of empathy to seek out
Or prove.
But the answer to Episode 6 requires an understanding of the âparadoxâ that is Yasuâs heart
Where somebody can be two people at once, and that one of those people can âdieâ without the other dying
Doldod - Today at 6:26 PM
I think itâs still a mystery though
Aspirety - Today at 6:26 PM
Itâs a mystery, just not one of those golden standards of mysteries
Doldod - Today at 6:27 PM
Yeah, itâs more of a modern type
With psychology factoring in
Aspirety - Today at 6:27 PM
You could almost consider Umineko a critique of the golden age of detective fiction for how cold and unempathetic it is
Will is also very telling of this
Doldod - Today at 6:28 PM
Some people just thought that itâs going to operate on the rules of golden age mystery
Aspirety - Today at 6:28 PM
Thereâs also like, questions of the lines we draw between fiction and non-fiction
Because in the real world, nobody would behave as a golden age mystery would
People and the world arenât perfect logic puzzles to be solved
They are fuzzy and complex
Doldod - Today at 6:29 PM
I think it is not so much a critique as a revision
A true deconstruction
But Ryu clearly loves golden age mystery
Aspirety - Today at 6:29 PM
You can love something and still criticise it~
That right there is, imo, the true meaning of Umineko. It was never meant to be anything as rigid or âperfectâ as a âgoodâ mystery in literary terms. I think anybody who has an issue with it for not being that completely missed the point of the story. Will as a character probably best embodies what I took Umineko to be saying to the reader, and heâs also my favourite. I think the thing that makes Umineko a masterpiece more than anything is its ambition. I donât think you can do anything truly revolutionary in literature (which I think Umineko did) without breaking new ground and probably disregarding past standards of excellence in the process. Thereâs a handful of arguably âperfectâ novels out there, then works that are doing something too wide-scale and experimental to fit into that category. I believe thatâs what Umineko was, and that that elevated it above even the faultless novels Iâve read in the past.
I do agree that Chiru is rather ambitious, and itâs what tripped people up when they didnât adjust its new set of rules.
Though that was honestly predictable seeing how Ryukishi sets things up in the Question arcs. EP1 is the first people will see, and set their genre expectations accordingly. Not everyone will appreciate a sudden shift/blend into something different from what they expected to get midway through the story.
(Itâs kind of tragic. I think Ryukishi tried several times to fix that expectation but nobody listened to him at that point because âburn the witchâ. But whether this is Ryukishiâs fault for setting wrong expectations or the readersâ fault for sticking to wrong expectations is not something I want to go into right now.)
Hmmm⌠It didnât really seem to me like Ryukishi was criticising the mystery genre itself though.
There is one scene in EP7 that seem to suggest mystery doesnât care about the âwhyâ, but I think Ryukishi meant to just call out a certain attitude towards the genre here.
If he actually claimed that about the genre, Iâd have to wonder if he actually read Christie.
(However, itâs worth mentioning that even back then, âperfect logic puzzleâ vs. ârealistic/good charactersâ was a point of contention and authors could pretty much be placed on all sorts of points on that spectrum, so maybe heâs alluding to that. Wouldnât exactly be anything completely new.)
So yeah, I think itâs more about not having âthe Erika attitudeâ.
Case in point:
Dlanor, the closest we get to a direct representation of orthodox mysteries, may be allied with Erika but is clearly much more of a fair person, to the point of actively helping Battlerâs thinking back on track.
Battler also gets completely demolished in EP5 until he has that talk with Dlanor and changes his attitude/approach.
He then proceeds to fully understand everything, including âthe heartâ, using those mystery rules as a guideline.
EP6 is basically one giant hint if you actually bother trying to make sense of the love duel instead of just dismissing it as meaningless.
(which Erika actually doesnât even pay attention anymore by the end. She pays the price for it. I enjoy to liken this to her âskipping pagesâ because hey, sheâs already found a plothole! She won! The author is exposed as worthless! Why keep reading?)
Thereâs also that infamous goat battle in EP8 where Dlanor and Will seem to be having the time of their life.
They shrug off some criticism about how theyâre outdated.
The only thing that enrages Will is when one of them doesnât even try and calls the whole thing pointless.
What Iâm taking from this is less of a âThese other mysteries are no goodâ and more of a âNo matter how weird, unusual, or frustrating the mystery may get, give the author a chance and at least try to understand.â
Iâve got a question about Kyrie, mainly from EP3 (and possibly EP8?).
She is Battlerâs mother, right? If Rudolf switched Battler to Asumu and Kyrie believed she had a miscarriage⌠well, how would Rudolf have been able to convince Kyrie of that? Wouldnât you be able to hear a baby crying?
Also, if Rudolf was with Kyrie first (mentioned in EP3 during the fight between Kyrie and Leviathan), why would he need to keep it a secret that Battler was really Kyrieâs son? Wouldnât he want to keep Asumu, the woman Kyrie claimed seduced him, a secret? Or was Asumu maybe an arranged wife chosen by Kinzo to increase financial status?
I think its customary for doctors to take babies away after they are born and then they told Kyrie her kid was dead. Or maybe Kyrie had a C section and when that happens you are put under I think.Also babies can cry but later are found to be dead. Its usually a rather weak cry though
The reason why he needed to keep it a secret is cause this would ruin his chances at love. He literally lied to both of his lovers faces and Kyrie (or any self respecting woman) would kill Rudolf if they found out.
So he lied to both womenâŚfor the sake of being with both, or?
To save his ass, thatâs why. Rudolf got himself into deep shit and dug his grave with the baby switch.
Hmm. It makes some sense, but I guess I donât understand how taking a baby from one woman and giving it to another would be helpful.
It takes me a stupid amount of time to make sense of Umineko sometimes, sorry.
He was fooling around with both of them and Rudolf acted rashly-thereâs nothing deeper to it
Re reading Jessicaâs trial of love from Episode 6 should help refresh your memory on the timeline of events surrounding Rudolf, Kyrie and Asamu.
Iâll reread!! Thanks!
Each Episode contains so much information I just canât remember everything, haha.