Umineko Spoilers General

In the manga it’s mentioned Rudolf was in as dire a situation as you people discussed with both of his lovers bearing children at the same time in the same hospital (talk about chain of unfortunate coincidences). However, while waiting for their deliveries Rudolf was weighing the situation with regards to to whom he should remain faithful. When the doctors inform Rudolf one of his wives miscarried, he is almost joyful before realising that his child was born to Kyrie. Realising that Asumu would not be able to cope with the circumstances if she had lost her child and her love, and she being the only one who accepted Rudolf with his faults led Rudolf to make the dramatic child switch.

It could be said Rudolf betrayed Kyrie by leaving her, but Rudolf actually knew Kyrie had a great deal of inner strength and she was his right hand in business decisions, and despite the tragedy of the news she was about to face, she was still capable of moving on without him whereas Asumu wasn’t that strong.

So in the end he just weighed the pros and cons of each outcome and manipulated the circumstances to suit the best one

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This is an answer I was hoping to get, and it clears up my question! Thanks! I’ve not yet read the manga version.

I kinda wonder. If Rudolf was a bit less of a jerk, would some of the Ushiromiya family still be alive. If both he and Kyrie were in a better place, they might not have done what they did.

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That’s part of the tragedy isn’t it? If either Kinzo or the siblings had been more stable then nothing might have happened (though that probably depends on how you look at the events in Lion’s fragment).

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It’s not really about ‘better’ or ‘worse’, rather the most logical solution to deal with a series of murders that can only finger the blame at the wrong people. Face it: it would have been Eva’s and Rudolf’s word against each other, the latter of whom had mountains of enemies who would love to see them rot in prison, versus just making all the nightmares of the night going away by blowing up the island. Kyrie made the cold logical call of removing all possible incriminating witnesses and deliberately made Rudolf also partake in at least one murder so he would be equally complicit and would have to shoulder the burden of killing all the rest of the members of his family.

It’s evident that in part the desperation for a quick solution to their problems, and their greed for the billion yen played a huge part in that thought process as well. Furthermore, if Rudolf and Kyrie hadn’t made the call they had, not only would suspicion fall on the most suspicious of the lot, but so would the ensuing imprisonment that would no doubt follow. Also, if they didn’t make the call they did then, it would only serve to stab them in the back, since the possibility also existed that other ‘survivors’ may also come to the same conclusion as them. Everyone is evidenced to have such a thinking capacity as evidenced from the preceding arcs.

Basically, Kyrie and Rudolf were protecting themselves. They were surrounded by potential killers and all of whom would gladly take all of the billion yen over the lives of people they weren’t even close to in a heartbeat. Being outsiders, we judge them as immoral since we can’t imagine doing the same, since we don’t put ourselves into their shoes generally.

It’s also naturally naïve, no offence here, to believe that if Kyrie and Rudolf hadn’t carried out the massacre, the tragedy wouldn’t have occurred in the first place. Make no mistake there, the prior arcs have already demonstrated the capacity of all of the living siblings in the VIP room, barring Rudolf, to be capable of doing the same. Also, Episode 3 demonstrated Eva’s capability of being the mastermind behind the entire incident.

Everyone in the Ushiromiya family has some amount of blood on their hands, directly or indirectly, in all of the arcs. It’s just because we’d rather Beatrice be the perpetrator of the crime, a belief seemingly supported well by the question arcs up until this point. Because this was the actual events that took place, it’s only natural that we wouldn’t want our beloved characters to be actually responsible for the entire series of murders.

Of course, even Kyrie and Rudolf meet their just ends at the hands of Eva, who manages to slip away (and Battler, who was miraculously unaware of all of these events). Not to mention Eva being herself a murderer having to face countless accusations of being the perpetrator behind the entire Rokkenjima murder. I could be wrong here, but it’s entirely possible all of the murderers face this stigma in the VN as a means of telling the readers that something that can be called a justifiable murder doesn’t exist. Of course, with regard to Eva, some may argue that she was unable to voice the truth because of the hurt it would cause Ange, however, one may also view that as the burden of a lie on the murderer, who must profess his innocence by implicating another, or in this case, implicating several parties due to a lack of inculpatory evidence against said murderer.

It’s a long answer, but I hope this clears people’s doubts about the logic behind Kyrie’s actions. There’s no Golden Land at the end of Episode 7. But to quell the sadness of the readers towards such a dark ending, I’d imagine Ryuukishi07 wrote Episode 8, to end the series on a semi-positive note.

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What I wanna know is, without the manga going into Sayo’s past, how could anyone possible figure out Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are the same person??

If a friend hadn’t told me, I would’ve never figured it out just by reading the vn. I’m not the brightest.

I figured out that Shannon and Kanon where the same person because of Bernkastel’s gameboard in episode 8. For some reason when Shannon died in it Kanon was declared dead and no explanation was given on why his body was not found. The only thing which made sense to me at the time was that Kanon’s body was the same as Shannon’s.

The thing I didn’t figure out myself was that Beatrice was also a personality and that it was held by the person who also held the Shannon and Kanon personalities.

I would like to hear what other peoples thoughts are about how the reader could figure out the Yasu, Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice connection.

7th episode explains it pretty well I think. The whole backstory makes sense only if you assume that yasu, shannon, kanon and beatrice are the same person. I had many doubts about Kanon being added to the bunch, but after I looked back at the logic error in episode 6 I was pretty sure that he is also one of Yasu’s personalities.

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I forgot what moment it was, but there was this scene way back when in EP3 that had to do with Shannon and Kanon’s corpses and the way the locked room puzzle was set up.

There’s also the fact that Battler never see’s Shannon and Kanon at the same time in EP4. And speaking of EP4, the tea party where Battler actually begins to be a detective contains the biggest hint to Shannon being Kanon before Chiru.
Contrary to some people’s beliefs, it’s actually possible to figure out Shannon = Kanon without the Magic scenes.

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Everyone here looks like they know about Umineko pretty well,so I have a question :
In Episode 5,Why is Erika able to see Kanon and Shannon at the same time?
I believe it was around the time where all the adults were breaking into Kinzo’s study to check if he was there,right before Battler and Knox’s showdown. I remember that at one point,Erika talks to Shannon then Kanon. How is that possible?

The explanation is that the scene is seen from Battler’s pov (it actually is) and thus has an unreliable narrator as Battler is not the detective in this story, even if he sees Erika.

Basically the detective’s presence does not ascertain the objectivity of the scene depicted unless the scene is seen from the pov of the detective. Beatrice would most likely never have done that, but the arc kinda went into a lot earlier on (conversation of Battler/Ronove) to say that LD and Bern were doing things that Beato never would’ve done but that are technically possible to do with the board so…

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I am trying to find lines that refer to the meaning of the family crest besides what it actually is :winking:. Had kinzo ever made a speech about it? I have been going through chiru and have not come across it again, and just reread the English manga. So I am thinking I might have dreamed it up. Any local Natsuhi out there to remind me?

I’m always incredibly impressed by the long theories I see in other threads. While I do enjoy reading the theories, it also makes me feel a little bit left out, because I don’t theorize so deeply. I want to believe in the magic side of things, because it’s something that’s familiar to me. The fantasies, the concept of fragments, ect. It’s familiar to me, it feels home. I honestly take the idea of forgeries to mean that anyone can create a new fragment, and despite knowing the forgeries are stories, I accept each one as its own valid universe. I believe in the magic and fantasies too much to try to theorize and figure out the symbolic meaning behind the existence of each character (such as Will, for example), so it makes me feel sorta like the odd one out here on Rokkejima. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Trust me fam, you don’t wanna think about Umineko as much as I do-it actively ruins your life.

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What if there really is only 1 gun in the real Rokkenjima?

I feel the obvious solution is that Yasu hid the other guns beforehand. The servants wouldn’t mention the lack of guns because they’re part of the conspiracy and Natsuhi wouldn’t be familiar with how many guns exist because though she runs the household I don’t get the impression she’d be in charge of maintaining Kinzo’s gun collection in a traditionally male-dominated household. This theory follows into Episode 2 where both Krauss and Natsuhi are dead from the first twilight and Rosa is only able to acquire a weapon with the approval of Yasu after becoming their accomplice. It’s just another reason why it makes sense to kill Krauss early on, he knows the most about the resources on the island including weapons.

The only other character who might know about the collection in episodes one and two is Eva (she grew up on the island after all) but as we know she is an accomplice in episode one and beyond that believes the murders were faked. There are plenty of characters who would know about the existence of the extra guns (Kinzo’s gun collection is mentioned in Episode One but never shown) but none of them are in a position where they would want to use them.

EDIT: A Seasoned Veteran and a Sherlock-in-Training Try to Make Sense of Umineko No Naku Koro Ni

More things I’m noticing in my reread, now that I can freely research the magic circles without fear of spoilers. According to this site the circle is required to be drawn in Gold for it to have effect, something which we obviously associate with a) the Ushiromiya inheritance and b) the Golden truth, a truth which an individual believes in their heart to be true. I think that this research is further hinting that the ‘magic’ explanation doesn’t rely on supernatural rituals and spells and also that the circles drawn have a different purpose than to free from physical bonds of iron.

I’m also reminded of a pair of fan illustrations of the One-Winged Eagle, one with Beatrice drawing in glittering gold and the other depicting Yasu drawing in blood. I’ll see if I can link them when I get the chance.

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Moving a conversation about the question of whether Yasu even exists in the first place here. To quote the original post:

My reasoning is simple.

Knox’s 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the STORY!

No where is Yasu until EP7. Hence Yasu must be dead at the beginning of all games.

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It does mention Sayo though, and it’s revealed in EP7 that Yasu is Sayo.

So even if Yasu is dead at the beginning of all games, does that mean Sayo is, as well?

If you can produce the actual line where Sayo is introduced as a separate character (from all other introduced characters) in EP1 then you can dispel my truth.

As Aspirety put in his reply, the death of Kanon or Shannon could be shown in red independently.