Umineko Spoilers General

Ohhh, I see your meaning. That’s an interesting theory, but it can only work in the fantasy interpretation where Yasu can exist as Beatrice, Kanon, and Shannon. From what I gather, you mean that this is a matter of names. Sayo is dead because she’s only operating under the names of Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice at the start of every game.

I think I can push back on this…

Yasu is just a nickname of Yasuda Sayo, the real name of Shannon. Sayo reveals her name to George, so doesn’t that disprove your theory…? She is introduced to us in EP 1 by way of Shannon and Kanon (and the teaser of Beatrice at the very end). At least, from the mystery perspective, she has to be alive.

But by the twisted logic of the board game? Yeah, you could say “Yasu” is dead.

That definitely shows that Shannon also has ownership of the name Sayo. However it does not show the existence of Yasu.

My other pieces of evidence are less direct:
The only one who can claim Kanon’s name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!
Kanon was killed in this room

If you use your roleplaying theory, then whoever roleplays Kanon is dead and anybody else they are roleplaying is automatically dead too. Hence Yasu cannot be roleplaying Shannon and Kanon, they must be individuals that can die seperately.

Finally as @Pocketyhat mentioned, Beatrice had inherited Yasu’s love for battler and this rite is shown in EP6 where chick beatrice inherits the heart that loves Battler. Thus you can infer that this inheritance can be used as indirect evidence that Yasu has passed her heart on and has died prior to game start.

But this red does not say, “The only one who can claim Kanon’s name is Kanon himself!” It says “the person.” The person is unnamed, and can still refer to Yasu. Yasu, in all technicality, is not a different person from Kanon. They are still Kanon, as Kanon is one of their personalities. In that sense, “Kanon,” in reference to the personality “Yasu” destroyed. Kanon is no longer apart of Yasu. That’s how I interpret it.

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This interpretation fulfills the red if and only if the different personalities are considered separate individuals. Otherwise if A dies then B, C…Z all die as they would be one person with many names.

You’re overextending your definition of ‘die’. It’s possible to kill things which are not human, like how I kill the power by turning off the switch.

’Kanon’ refers to a role being played. Thus, if anyone claims the name ‘Kanon’ then they are truly ‘Kanon’. This red truth is meant to be a hint towards the nature of Kanon. Otherwise, why would it be the case that a different person cannot claim his name?

Um, I’m not following on your theory @Baelzaron… What are you exactly meaning to say? If you go by Knox’s first, then yes, like somebody here said, Sayo has already revealed her name to George and it is spoken by him in the first episode. and you just need to look at all the clues presented during the four question arcs and you can figure out the hidden existence of Yasu. And yes, I do agree that the red truth about Kanon does hint at his true nature, that only the ‘person’, which is Yasu, can claim his name and ‘Kanon’ is a role being played, and when Yasu is, say, ‘Shannon’, she’s not claming Kanon’s name even though they’re the same person, she’s just playing another role that has no connection to Kanon.

@Aspirety Herein lies the catch, the definition of “die”. If following your reasoning, where “die” can represent ending a role, then you would also be able to argue no one was actually died as they could all have simply “switched off” their roles. If that is the case then, yes, I concede that my truth can be denied.

@Kennidy @Karifean Special attention to names is given multiple times. The red truths basically state that even if an individual possesses multiple names, no one else but the owner can have it (in this game). That is to say none of the sets of names held by the independent entities have any intersects (as defined by set theory A ∩ B = 0).

Of course. Three people–in other words, three bodies–went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

Ie Shannon can also be called Sayo, but if Kanon is considered independent (regardless of sharing a body) then he cannot be called Sayo (in this game). If Kanon can be called Sayo, then he is also Shannon, anything that happens to Shannon happens to Kanon and vice versa.

@Sapphire Sayo revealed her name, but only as an alternative name for Shannon. This does not present the existence of Yasu (a seperate persona) at that point in time. At most you could’ve solved that Kanon and Shannon share one body by the clues given in EP1-4. To disprove this you need only show that “Yasu” was presented in the question arcs separate from Kanon and Shannon, with citation and not the general gist mind you.
(clues for Beatrice I don’t think can be seen without using the answer key from EP5-8, unless you can demonstrate with citation)

If you desire my exact purpose, I mean to say that based on the clues and rules presented in this story Yasu is dead at the beginning of all games.

I know this is pretty flimsy evidence overall but this is the way I always overcome this part.

While George may think of these names interchangeably, whichever name Shannon/Kannon/Yasu/Sayo is being called is acted upon in different ways. Shannon would never refer to George in such a way where she is anything but a servant, however when she takes on Sayo or Yasu she treats George as if they were equals. While I don’t have the evidence on hand for this, (and I think it would honestly be too much to upload) as far as I know throughout all the question arcs at least Shannon never refers to herself as an equal to George. She may like George to some extent but throughout all of the arcs I never remember Shannon herself thinking George is someone she could think of as an equal.

Question, when Beatrice erases Battler at the end of EP4, would this scene imply that she knew about the baby swap or would it just mean that she was just able to trip up Battler by asking if he was adopted or not?

Also, another thing I noticed in that scene is when Battler uses the Red. For some reason, Lambda states that you can just ‘will’ yourself to use the red when we know from future episodes that witches can bestow the privileges of using certain red upon furniture/humans.

Its just a minor inconsistency I noticed. Perhaps Ryukishi just forgot to add that part about the red in.
Edit: But then again, Lambda is technically right in that anyone can will themselves to use the red, you just have to get permission by the GM to use it and whatever reds they allow you to use.

How else could she get more accomplices?

The red doesn’t exist for the human world, in the reread this looked like another glaring clue that Ryukishi was waving in our faces.

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Well yeah, I was just wondering how she got to know that information. It just seems like something Rudolf would guard with his life.

Also one thing I was wondering was how Kanon managed to fake his death in front of Jessica and George in EP1. I have an idea, but I’m not to sure about it.

This is a little embarrassing, but do you mind if you could explain why that part would be a big clue? I have read Umineko twice-its just that I’ve been waiting a while to read it again ever since it got on Steam.

Didn’t Nanjo pronounce Kanon’s death? Everyone probably stayed away from the body and never confirmed it by themselves. All Sayo had to do was use some fake blood to make it look genuine.

Eh, true. i guess I was just slightly confused on that part considering how George and Jessica were helping Nanjo patch Kanon back up. But yes, Nanjo would’ve been the one to officially confirm Kanon’s death in that room.

This is never given, but I have a theory that it was known by Beatrice since EP1. Afterall Rudolf say’s “I want to have a little talk as a family” and “…Tonight… I will probably, be killed.” Which can be interpreted to mean “I’m telling Kyrie about the baby swap and she is going to crush my balls”.

As for what would motivate him to say something that would be better off taken to the grave? Either he wanted Kyrie to reconcile with her son, or he didn’t want to be controlled by someone threatening to reveal this… which leads to either murder play cooperation or silencing murder.

Theories about the source of this knowledge… Well buying info from a nurse or better yet if the arranged hospital was run by Nanjo.

I could only see it myself on a reread with the key that EP4 was a forgery. Hence the GM is not Beatrice and “Battler” is a piece of the GM who is made to speak in red (like how other GM pieces can speak in gold). Further clues regarding this in EP4 include “Hey, in your 1986 did Battler Onii-chan come back?”

Considering there is no “absolute” solution, acceptable solutions include what @Ushiromiya_Battler said or even they were in on it. Other valid explanations probably exist too.

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True. Rudolf was planning to tell Kyrie at some point and perhaps in order to prepare himself he could’ve spoken it over with a family member he trusted or something and Sayo could’ve found out via eavesdropping. I’m not so sure about buying info from a nurse because even if the hospital Battler was born in was on the register, why would she suspect something in the first place?

That’s right. Because technically EP4 is written by Tohya who could technically be called the GM. And this would explain why Battler is somewhat able to speak in Red and Beatrice/Lambdadelta would know about certain things.

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Umineko no Naku Koro ni Hane (Spoiler Alllert!)

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Before you read the whole post beware don’t unless you have finished all 8 episodes of Umineko!
With that out of the way I shall pose the question, has anyone has read or heard about Hane? It is an extra present of mini stories compiled together which came with Chiru as well as the Oogyunwhatshisface Cross fighting game later on.

It has left an exceedingly tremendous impact upon me to the point of absolute devastation. Altough only a mere compact 2 hours with a ratio of more redherrings and easter eggs than its parent work Chiro, it felt a rich addition to this longrunning series for its captivating story which would be a shame for hardcore seacat fans not to read or miss out on. It is an official R07 work as far as I can tell. The vndb page stands to affirm that claim see for yourself if you don’t believe me https://vndb.org/v9047
Now what I found especially fascinating as I have been on a hiatus longer than one could imagine regarding vns, is that by mere chance I happened to come across a certain boyman on tumblr who has created a PS3 aesthetic patch to my much delight for HANE, meaning that this game of read and make out the threads in the metaphoric sense can be re-experienced again. If only the boy didn’t disappear from his platform https://hanatsubasatweak.tumblr.com/ in his entirety like a child that was never conceived and his dropbox for the patch was still alive instead of the usual 400+ errors I would totally reread it without haste. Wondering if anyone has that patch.

For those who finds this TL;DR-caliber: what were your thoughts and first impressions upon HANE and if anyone has the PS3 patch backup for it.

I actually have Hane in English from a translation group called “Ars Magica”:

Umineko Hane contains two Extra tips and some words from Ryukishi. I don’t believe the patch exists in the Internet anymore when I did a quick research, but perhaps I could re-upload it for people who own Umineko Hane and needs the English translation patch. I don’t think it violates the forum rules since obviously I will upload the patch only and not the game itself.

The PS3 sprites were fanmade, it wasn’t ever released officially with PS3 sprites for all I know.

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Something really simple but at the end of Ep 6 when Bernkastel is promoted to the GM rank. She says " I have no love so things might be interpreted in a weird way, however the reader is free to read the story …"
She says she has no love, and it’s explicitly said here that Ep 7 is a game without love.
Now considering the real hint of Ryukishi “without love, truth cannot be seen”. Isn’t this already enough to say that Episode 7 may not reveal the truth —> Especially Yasu’s story which already seems like a big masquerade?

I feel like that might have been more of a reference to the truth Bern showed Ange and Lion about the family killing each other and Kyrie and Rudolf killing off the rest of the family. What Bernkastel showed them was the depiction of events devoid of love, i.e. Kyrie and Rudolf murdering everyone in a cold-blooded way.

Plus, Sayo’s entire story in episode 7 was full of love, which directly contradicts Bernkastel’s statement, so it is clear Bernkastel had nothing to do with it.