While most people would rightfully think that Visual Novels are nothing more than entertainment vehicles for degenerate nerds to get into, the When They Cry series I’d say is pretty unique among VN’s for reading like actual books and having many literary references that actually are relevant to the story and provide further depth.
Of course, references aren’t just what makes up literary merit, but its a starting point. So anyway, you can discuss merit of WtC as an art form. Other VNs are also allowed, but please make good arguments for them! (Except Fata Morgana)
Don’t forget to tag spoilers also.
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Oh look, one of these guys.
I bet you think action movies aren’t art either.
EDIT: WHY IS THIS IS BLOG DISCUSSION?
@Aspirety??? Help?
EDIT: @StarTurner being the MVP and moving it. Thanks for that man!
Good action movies/animation are actually some of the highest forms of art. For example, an incredible amount of thought and attention to detail went into animating the action sequences of Samurai Champloo. Everything from combat style, environment, the way characters react, research, the realism of movement, etc… all come together to create an exciting experience. I think it has to be said that there is Art within Martial Arts.
As for Higurashi, I don’t see a reason why it can’t be regarded as "art’. Similar to action, writing good horror is one of the most difficult thing someone can do because the horror genre breaks all the traditional rules of storytelling, and leaves with the reader a memorable character or event that reminds them of the experience. Higurashi’s themes of conspiracy are very relateable, and it sticks with the reader.
In my opinion, horror and action are genres which are very easy to do moderately decent, but incredibly difficult to do well.
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What is wrong with House in Fata Morgana that it can’t be discussed here? I’m just wondering about this because it is one of my favorite visual novels. It would be a shame to not see it get discussed.
I think he’s implying that here’s no need to give evidence for it.
That makes sense 
I don’t even know what to make of descriptors like “Literary Merit”. For me, When They Cry made me reflect, reconsider and learn more than any other work of fiction I’ve ever consumed, be it written literature, movies or games. Is that not more than enough for me to give it all the Literary Merit of a highly-regarded classic piece of literature? If not, then the descriptor of Literary Merit just loses all meaning for me since it ends up being no help at all in identifying works worth reading.
When They Cry is still very recognizable as heavily influenced by anime culture. Between the silly jokes, the powerz of friendshipz, characters like the Chiesters, the loser flags and a lot more there’s so much ‘trashiness’ in When They Cry that would make some people cringe. But so the fuck what. You brought up Fata Morgana as an example of a visual novel you don’t really need to make an argument for; but what is it that separates Fata Morgana from other visual novels? Really, it’s only the general lack of anime culture influence. It touches on some very delicate themes with great skill, but that’s not connected to its lack of anime-ism.
There are things When They Cry does incredibly well. The casts of both games are (among) my favorites of all time and no conventional work of literature I’ve read even comes close, especially within the mystery genre. The story, Umineko’s in particular, is one of the most original concepts I’ve seen, and it pays homage to many classic authors and tropes. It puts an anime spin on things, but that doesn’t alienate it from its “peers”. And really, if literary merit was determined by how close a work is to others, it’s a useless desciptor again.
To make some kind of sense of this pointless rant, I don’t see any reason as to why When They Cry, among many other visual novels, wouldn’t be qualified for having “literary merit”. It’s not even that unique among VNs if you ask me, the parts that make it feel distinct to other VNs make it feel distinct to every other fictional work/medium just as well.
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_[quote=“pictoshark, post:5, topic:941, full:true”]
I think he’s implying that here’s no need to give evidence for it.
[/quote]
[quote=“Karifean, post:7, topic:941, full:true”]
I don’t even know what to make of descriptors like “Literary Merit”.
Here ya Go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_merit
“Critics point to literary merit as necessarily subjective, since aesthetic value is often determined by personal taste, and has been derided as a ‘relic of a scholarly elite’.”
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That’s pretty much how I view it, sorry to say.
That sort of thing reeks of intellectual snobbism to me.
You like something or you don’t.
And no one is rightfully a degenerate for appreciating a given medium of art, which is all visual novels are in the end.
Edit : I’m sorry if this sounds rude but yeah.
I am willing to chalk it up to rolling 1 on the social dice, which is something I’m very prone to do myself, but going to a forum of people who like visual novels and insulting that category is not the best of move. That you like it or not, Umineko has tons of “fanservice things” like antropomorphic bunny girls and flashy fantasy battles, it remains aimed at the generic otaku crowd.
As for it’s merit, while it certainly has many merit as a work created by ryuukishi, there’s no particular merit to be given to one who like it in lieu of something else. I’d much rather have a topic about what makes you enjoy Umineko and other Visual novel, then a topic that tries to create the idea that there are some works who makes those tho read them into degenerates while others makes them art coinaisseurs or something.
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Ehehe… Looks like I made some people a bit upset. Perhaps I should clarify?
Of course, literary merit is subjective. One might consider Steins;Gate to have a lot of substance in its writing while others may not. But in terms of novels like WtC and Fata Morgana-despite them containing what could be termed as “weird otaku shit-” I think they do a lot of things most VNs don’t in terms of writing and if the weird shit was taken out, I could see both series digested as a serious work among the mainstream populace.
Sort of like NGE vs TTGL
(And the degenerate part wasn’t serious. I was just referencing how a good chunk of the VN market is compromised of nukige or escapist fiction)
You know… the very same thing applies to, like, literally every other medium out there.
The one thing where I can agree that VNs are separate from other media is that 18+ works are geniunely considered among the greatest works, there’s no inherent distance between adult VNs and all-ages VNs in terms of story and target audience; there’s still porn and there’s still story games, but there are story games with porn that are unironically considered great. But that’s a good thing. Yes it does nothing to help VNs being considered weird compared to other media, but I think it could stand to become a thing in other media as well.
While I get what you mean when you separate WTC and FMnY from other visual novels, I don’t consider what you call “weird otaku shit” to be even remotely an inherently bad thing. Yes it will separate them from other literary media forever in some people’s eyes, but that’s just being closed-minded if you ask me. And there are so many visual novels out there besides WTC and FMnY that I also consider great.
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Just copy pasting from a private conversation but, here’s my two cents if anything…
I would personally say that it’s exactly how umineko manage to be a deep story while remaining a true otaku thing that makes it actually great, or perhaps a better word is "really fun"
Umineko without my crazy witches, demon butler with a living mustache, half naked bunny girls, and Krauss beating up a goat thanks to loser flags? No thank you!
Adding to it :
While obviously “mature” content takes on a different form in a visual novel, it’s not like sexuality itself is non-existent from many novels with high recognition to be classics, tho that may be to some extent more the case in some cultures than some others.
Visual novels do have a rather unusual history behind it to arise as a credible medium, but I don’t really think it’s honestly relevant to any form of conversation about it.
I would rather hope that on a forum such as here in particular, prejudism against Otaku culture wouldn’t be a thing. I’m definitively, if anything, not ashamed of being a big fan of touhou.
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So you’re saying this sentence was a joke, right?
Yes
Doesn’t such a pointless and unclear joke detract from the “merit” of your post?
Having references to other works adds almost nothing to a work of fiction, and prevents sections of it from standing on their own. It feels like I disagree with you in almost every way as far as to how fiction should be valued.
What do you think of Jojo’s? Particularly part 2.
Holy shit Usagi, you seem like you’re trying to be nice, but that was such a vicious burn.
Well I did mention that references don’t just constitute the entirety of literary merit. There are a whole bunch of factors at play.
As for the joke…I thought it would be obvious, but I see where you’re coming from. Sorry.
Haven’t seen it yet.
And here I thought no one here could engage in bantz.
I’m not nice in the agreeable sense of the word, no. However it wasn’t my intentions to make “a vicious burn”. Maybe a better wording would be that some people (which I include myself in) have a greater tendency to put a foot in their mouth, to varying levels and frequencies.
Here’s another brutally frank opinion :
This topic ultimately failed to even begin to really talk about what it seemed to be trying to talk about, and that was due in large part to the form it took, like it or not.
I’d propose renaming it to a less arrogant sounding name and moving on, discussion wise, toward what I said earlier. It’s not like the idea itself has no value. There’s definitively stories that have tried to do something more profound than some others even if that ends up being highly subjective.
If someone was to compare let’s say Keijo with Lain… Not that I think anyone who’d enjoy keijo is in any ways in the wrong to do so (which is, personally, the attitude that sorta rubbed me wrong from the OP) but there isn’t much of a realistic debate that in comparison Lain was trying to do something well “special”. If anything else it could be said that the depth of thoughts and emotions poured into their respective creations are on different levels entirely, wether they achieved what they were aiming for or not.
Since it sorta seems to stand on a very controversial middle ground there, I wonder what the perception of Fate/Stay Night would be here. Especially considering that it’s original version did have “mature” scenes in it.
On something else wether it really falls into any sort of “literary merit” in any credible way, I will say that I very much enjoyed Rewrite, even tho I also would have many critics about it… because of how it addressed, as far as I’m concerned, the delicate balance between global issues and how one finds and lives their personal place in the world under such a scenario. An idea that is not often bought up in fiction in general.
I do admit, I could have been a bit more tactful in my framing of the discussion. I have a pretty dry sense of humor, so I apologize if anyone was offended by my joke. It was supposed to be more tongue in cheek, but I guess it came off as being rude. …And I was kind of not helping matters either.
This was really supposed to be the point of my entire thread, tbh.
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Then how is reference to other works at all related? C’moooooooooooooon it’s the ONE example you give for how something could have literary merit in the OP.