Oh, those are DANGER and SALVATION, unfortunately, so no need to crack that.
I still think those 6 books mean something, though.
EDIT: I wonder what solving it will bring us to, maybe it activates some mechanism in the mansion? Maybe it will spell someone’s name? I have no idea.
There’s also Battler’s story on Asumi’s disappearance. How did she leave the room with windows shut, chain lock? That would be another key clue to solving this.
Well that one we don’t really get much information on,so a lot could be true.
Regarding the numbers, the whole “praise the name of Paradiso” thing made me wonder if we somehow had to form “heaven” with the titles but no matter how I approached that it didn’t seem to get me anywhere so who knows.
Might be coincidence, but there’s also 6 sub-sections in Kanon’s POV story.
I was originally tossing around the idea that the numbers were the number of deaths(murders) that occur in each book, since we know one occurs in Death and Burial of Poor Cock Robin and I’m pretty sure that two occur in Endless Night (though I haven’t read it yet, I will soon.) However, I’ve never heard of any of the other four titles, and I don’t even know if murders occur in any of them, plus, I don’t know how the number of murders would be helpful at all, so I shelved that idea.
Well, I’m not expecting much from any of this, but I way as well give it a shot:
[color=blue]You have stated in red that Natsuhi’s death was not the result of a trap, and that it was murder. However, murder =/= the scene Kanon saw in the bathroom, allowing this to have been done by a simple string contraption like the one used in the first game. The clue: “The human skull, after all, was quite thick!” Most importantly, Doctor Nanjo’s bag had been “ransacked” by this point. Using insulin to fake deaths is generally considered permissible under Knox’s Decalogue, and this is what happened. The culprit would then have had all the time in the world to walk into the bathroom and murder her themself.[/color]
It’s a weak theory, but I guess it’s better than nothing.
Unfortunately Natsuhi was confirmed dead at the time of Kanon’s inspection.
I don’t know what could be considered a death in the Divine Comedy, so I don’t think the number of deaths in each book is the solution to the code.
Nanjo’s bag was mentioned, so it could have some use, maybe not for faking one’s death.
The only one who could have faked his death I see now is Nanjo, who should be more than capable of faking a death, especially in his case, given the simplicity.
The person Battler saw in his POV can’t be Kanon, due to the rules of narration, so it should be the culprit and Battler is innocent. Unless there are secretly two Battlers and both are considered ‘mentioned’ at some point in the story.
Why would DWaM bring up Knox’s Decalogue? It could be a way to trick us with Knox’s 10th so we wouldn’t try checking for twins. It wouldn’t hurt much to check the narration and see if that was hinted at.
What I’m saying that Battler’s twin could be another possible culprit, and his presence was suggested at some point during the narration, not contradicting Knox’s 10th.
Remember this is all speculation (this Battler’s twin thing isn’t so credible, anyway, but Asumu’s death made me think about it).
As @EntropyMirror, it won’t do, I’m afraid.
There’s no trickery to be found here, I’m afraid. This red refers to the exact scene you assume it does in the narrative itself.
I don’t take the using insulin to fake one’s death to be fair in this case, I’m afraid. It’s not something I’ve ever encountered personally in most mysteries, nor do I think it’s standard enough of a method in fiction in general to be assumed as common knowledge. And with no mention or hint of insulin at play in the narration, I’m afraid it’s not quite enough. Might’ve been a popular thing in Knox’s time and hence why he give sit leeway; I cannot.
Twins wouldn’t work for the simple fact that I demand the culprit to be someone mentioned in the narration. In other words, named. And even if you can somehow name them (which I don’t think you can), you’re not going to find hints of them existing, because they don’t. No twins are at play here, I’m afraid.
[Color=blue] Rosa’s room and another room in the mansion are interchangeable. The culprit could switch them from the outside. After Rosa had entered the room and locked the door, the culprit switched the rooms. The door to the other room, now Rosa’s room, wasn’t locked, so he could enter, kill Rosa and set up the scene seen by the group. The culprit then left through the door and switched the rooms back. [/color]
Basically the same thing I said with the bathroom. This isn’t a secret passage in its definition of ‘entrance or exit’ given, as I said.
What’s the hint to this? The three chairs taken from the storage room.
There are various chairs in the mansion, why would the culprit specifically choose those chairs for the bodies? Because the room that was switched with Rosa’s was in proximity of the storage room (or the storage room itself), and those were the nearest chairs.
Thought I’d sufficiently checked for relevant reds, don’t know how I missed that one. Sorry 'bout that.
On the other hand, it wasn’t completely useless, knowing that you don’t accept insulin says a lot to me, since the fact that the doctor’s bag had been ransacked really drew my attention.
Question: Does your interpretation of Knox’s 3rd forbid hidden rooms as well? For example, a hidden room attached to the bathroom that the culprit could hide in until Natsuhi came, come out of to kill her, and then hide in again to trick Kanon?
EDIT: Are roof hatches and vents forbidden as well? The clue is never presented, but these are both commonly found in bathrooms (my own has one of each).
In terms of headless corpses, I get the feeling that Rudolf is alive as his head is nowhere to be found in Kanon’s POV as he didn’t get the chance to look closer and Kyrie doesn’t say on where Rudolf’s head is at, whereas the headless corpse found in Kyrie and Rudolf’s bedroom has to be Gohda’s corpse. The servant’s heads are all in the fridge as stated by Kanon’s POV.
[color=blue] Rudolf dressed Gohda’s corpse in his clothing to fool both Kyrie and Kanon as they have similar physique, then after they left to find if anyone was alive, Rudolf moved the headless corpse and placed it on the right side chair of Rosa’s room.[/color]
I’m afraid that… really isn’t something I can accept as a hint/evidence to circumvent Knox’s 8th. In fact, for convenience sake, I might as well chunk all room shifting as secret passages of some kind from now on, because it relies on the same basic principle of the mansion being more than what it is - an ordinary mansion.
Knox’s 3rd would indeed rule out something like that.
Those are ruled out, too. It wouldn’t be right in the spirit of things for the players to make assumptions on the existence of things that may or may not exist structurally within the mansion itself. Imagine a mystery novel where the detective lays out a solution hinging on the existence of a vent never once mentioned in the narrative. The reader would probably burn the book then and there.
There was another theory earlier suggesting something similar in terms of Rudolf faking his death, so you might want to take a look at that to see all of the inevitable issues stemming as a result. This should be the starting post to that discussion:
(There should be an arrow next to this quote letting you jump to the exact post. In case there isn’t, it should be post 59.)
[color=blue]The culprit is one of the siblings, or Nanjo. Kinzo says: "Psh. Pathetic, what they’ve all become…” after mentioning that he’d shown the poisons to another person, and that they’d looked at him as if he were crazy. The only people he could use this phrasing for would be his own children, or at a real stretch, Nanjo. Only someone who had known of the existence of the poison could make use of it, and the only people who know of the poison on the island are Kanon, who is a reliable piece, Kinzo himself, who has been proclaimed in red to have died before Kanon saw the culprit near the end, and the person Kinzo showed the poison to before Kanon.[/color]
This isn’t really up to the standard of evidence, and it doesn’t actually answer anything concretely, but I thought it was worth putting out there.
As for how the poison got out of Kinzo’s study, [color=blue]It is specified that Kinzo stored the box on a bookshelf. Alongside this, the vault/library had been completely turned upside down, to borrow your own phrasing. The bookshelf in Kinzo’s study is interchangeable with one in the vault. The clues are the messed up vault, the fact that the fault is the room where the Battler and Jessica were poisoned, and that the box was found by Kanon in front of the vault door.[/color]
Again, it’s not really solid, but I thought it was worth throwing out there.
The numbers inside the books might provide some insight into this. They might have even been books originally from Kinzo’s room that ended up there after the bookshelves were switched/switched back.
Perhaps now I too have the time and energy to participate again. I won’t be giving any theories yet, just general thoughts on things that caught my interest.
Finally read through the narrative and convinced myself that there’s a hidden passage between the library and Kinzo’s study. I mean, it all fit - why Kinzo would be so super defensive about a mere library (excessive locks, being angry if people touch the books), why Jessica and Battler would hear one quarrel through the supposedly soundproof walls when they heard nothing else (sounds from Kinzo’s study could carry through because of the passage), why there would be numbers in the books when there seems to be no code input anywhere (the passage is a classic bookshelf thing that is activated by pressing the right books or somesuch - the numbers are there to remind what the order is)… but there’s a red directly denying any and all hidden passages. So I guess that is a bust.
Still, I can’t help but wonder if there could be some other mechnism than a hidden passage in the library. It can’t be anything too complex, though, as we’d run into problems with the decalogue.
The culprit set up a game of sorts where rescuing either Battler or Jessica is the prize. He put the two into a room that was locked with two keys that he hid in the mansion, and poisoned them with Kinzo’s poison. He left one vial of the antidote in front of the library door, easy to find. However, if this game was intended to be fair (which it might not be, considering the skull key was inside George), wouldn’t he had to have known that Kanon was told of how the antidote works? If we strike off Kinzo from the suspect list due to his relatively early death, the prime suspect would naturally become the other guest of Kinzo, for whom Kinzo explained the poison, and supposedly also the antidote. As the antidote has to be administered in a somewhat unusual way for it to work (straight to the heart), if the culprit didn’t know that at least one of the survivors knows this, the game would’ve been rigged from the start.
However, it doesn’t seem like there’s any reasonable way the culprit could know this. I mean, it could be they were randomly walking past Kinzo’s study right as Kinzo was talking to Kanon, but that’s a bit of a stretch. So, as the key being inside George’s body already suggests, does this mean the game was meant to be impossible from the start? Even if they “won”, the culprit had every reason to think they wouldn’t administer the antidote properly. Which suggests it all was arranged only to torment the participants. Which in turn would require some reason for the culprit to hate the victims of his torture so. I would expect that by this point, there’s something in the narrative that would establish said motive. Battler’s storytime about Asumu’s death pops to mind, but that seems a bit difficult to connect to the targets of this torture.
Speaking of those targets, if we take the “game” to be at the heart of the culprit’s plan, the other deaths were mere window dressing - the real deal is Battler and Jessica dying slowly to poison under circumstances that supposedly allow the other survivors to rescue them. After all, the story already brought up the idea of punishment through the slaughter of innocents close to the guilty, as Kanon was musing about George’s impending death. So, this would mean that whoever are the closest to Battler and Jessica are the true targets of the culprit’s vengeance. With Jessica, it is easy enough - Kanon and Natsuhi care deeply about her. With Battler, though, it’s a bit strange. Nobody really cares that much about the poor sod - Rudolf is dead, Kyrie is Kyrie. Sure, people would be sad if Battler died, but he isn’t beloved to the same degree as Jessica is. So, why choose Battler as one of the prizes? To truly torment a single individual, one would pick two people close to that person as the prizes, and then force that person to choose only one, only for even that to ultimately fail. I guess you could torment a group of people by making them fight with themselves over who to save.
In any case, I suppose that isn’t the most effective approach to solving anything. I guess I just like the idea of starting with the motive.
I doubt this has much relevance either, but it is interesting how the deaths of the adults parallel the first gameboard. Krauss was hanged both times, Eva was brutalized both times, Rudolf’s head was cut off both times, how did Rosa die in the first gameboard, again? I don’t remember. In any case, considering how other things happened differently, I wonder if the way these characters died has a specific purpose for the culprit. I suppose Rudolf is the only one who could benefit from such a thing - if everyone has died in various but generally brutal ways, someone having their head cut off doesn’t stick out quite as much, and arouses less suspicion of the corpse not actually being who they think it is.
Regarding Natsuhi’s death, I’ve only glanced through other posts in the thread, but I don’t recall anyone pointing out how strange it is that Kanon heard nothing except the toilet flushing and the sink being turned on. Natsuhi never screamed. Kanon never heard her body hit the floor, or any sound that would come from a knife being stabbed into someone’s skull. If we take Natsuhi’s lack of response to Kanon’s knock to mean she was already dead by that point… how could the murder have taken place? She was stabbed in the forehead in a small room where nobody should’ve been. Even if we ignore the problems with someone entering the room or having somehow hidden themselves in there in advance, it seems excessively unlikely that they could stab Natsuhi in the forehead before Natsuhi could make any sound. Granted, Kanon didn’t examine the corpse in detail, so I guess it’s possible that she was killed in some other way and the knife was stabbed into her forehead afterwards.
Natsuhi’s death is so weird I’d be inclined to call it a suicide if not for the problems Natsuhi being the culprit would cause. In any case, we should probably pay attention to what happened right before Kanon checked the toilet. Natsuhi started randomly stumbling, saying she’s had these weirdest headaches today. If not for Knox’s 8th, I’d be halfway tempted to say that she collapsed and then was stabbed through a small opening in the floor or the wall or somesuch. Though that would naturally also bring up the question of how exactly could the culprit predict any of this. It could perhaps be explained by some knockout trap of sorts being in the toilet… but that would make Natsuhi’s prior strange headache pointless. We know that our gamemaster isn’t averse to using coincidence in his boards, but I have trouble imagining any kind of coincidence that would result in a knife being lodged in Natsuhi’s forehead.
Anyhow, that’s enough of aimless meandering for now. Maybe later I can actually give a theory or two.
Well, as you yourself have pointed out, the first blue doesn’t assert anything regarding the crimes themselves, so I leave it up to your own discretion to determine how true or false it might be.
As for your second idea:
I’m afraid those… aren’t really that strong of clues. The clues @midsummer provides in the above post I would argue are stronger than that… but even so - I’m afraid neither is the case.
You can assume without a shadow of a doubt that something like a moving bookshelf – or any other similar mechanisms/gaps/trapdoors and such – I would consider secret passages. Even if a human couldn’t pass through it, it is still ultimately a secret connection between two rooms.
Another thing worth bringing to your attention would be a blue @Xak made a while ago…
Which I did let pass, at the time. Mind you, given that you haven’t participated in the earlier shebangs, I should warn you a ‘pass’ doesn’t necessarily guarantee it to be the case. It could very well be the truth here, but a fair warning nevertheless.
I had this ridiculous thought a while ago for this board but dismissed it. But after the last board, I wouldn’t put anything past @DWaM now.
For some reason or another, [color=blue]Natsuhi opened the bathroom window, but she didn’t touch it directly to do so.[/color] Perhaps [color=blue] her hand was wrapped in toilet paper. [/color] This would allow the culprit to enter, kill her, and escape as previously described. [color=blue]The overflowing sink served to hide the culprit’s wet tracks, while the toilet was flushed to get rid of the toilet paper Natsuhi used to open the window. [/color]
The answers to some of his mysteries have included some unintuitive elements, but so far he has kept to his word on not using the red to confuse the readers with wordplay or contrivances. If he says Natsuhi didn’t touch the window, she did not do so. I think that by now, we should be past the point of trying to break the reds.
Now that you mention it, the sink flowing over is strange. Sinks generally don’t do that unless deliberately blocked, which is not what you’d do if you wanted to just wash your hands. Perhaps there is some specific purpose to the overflowing sink. Since Natsuhi wouldn’t just let the sink overflow while she’s washing her hands, it can’t be related to a method of entering the bathroom. It’d make sense if it was to hide traces… but what traces might they be that would require washing away?
Hm. Natsuhi’s corpse was directly under the sink. Somewhat unusual - she was not merely collapsed in front of the sink, she was directly under it. This would imply that likely, if the culprit was inside the bathroom, he moved Natsuhi’s corpse. The sink was on the wall opposite the door. Combining this with the water on the sink being still on, this allows the culprit to escape from the bathroom. The first thing Kanon would see is Natsuhi’s corpse under the sink, and the narrative specifies he immediately ran to her. Since her corpse was moved all the way to the wall, this would mean it leaves enough of a blind spot in Kanon’s awareness for the culprit to slip out through the door unnoticed. The water on the sink being still turned on would conceal the sound of the culprit’s footsteps as he escaped.
Still, even if the culprit’s escape could be explained that way, explaining how he entered is the problem. Especially considering Natsuhi never made a sound that would suggest she saw anything surprising or frightening, and if she was on the toilet, she would’ve been directly facing the window. Or perhaps not, depending on how exactly the seat is oriented. Still, I find it highly unlikely anyone could enter the room or move inside it without Natsuhi noticing. Which leaves me wondering whether Natsuhi could’ve been aware of the culprit and unalarmed by his presence without being an accomplice.
Or perhaps Natsuhi was unconscious by the time the culprit made his move?
Now, now. She’d still be touching the window regardless. The wordplay I used in that last game at least had hints to it and some semblance of a purpose behind it.
I’ve said it earlier and I’ll say it again:
There is no point to a solution like this. As in, there’s no point to making a game where something like this is a solution.
In Bow, I wanted a specific answer because the situation itself was set up to be answered in a specific way – and even then, I ended up conceding despite details not being fully consistent.
A game in which the mystery would come down to whether or not Natsuhi had toilet paper on her hand when she opened the window, as if there’s some special difference, becomes an exercise in futility and frustration rather than anything to actually solve. Me coming up with something like that isn’t fun – neither for me to come up with and GM, or you to solve.
You don’t need a red of me saying “Natsuhi didn’t open the window”. The fact that the only solutions that provide themselves if she did are solutions that would basically demand me to just be plain unfair to the point where one has to wonder what the point even was, then you’re probably on the wrong track.
Question: Does Knox’s 1st include characters mentioned in flashbacks? because I have a theory on who the killer is and I want to check if it is allowed to work with Knox’s 1st.
If you’re suggesting Asumu could be the culprit, keep in mind the culprit has to be the same as in game 1, where she wasn’t even mentioned in passing. I know that game 1 doesn’t necessarily have to obey Knox, but having a culprit have absolutely zero presence in the story would be pretty unfair, in my opinion.
(While game 1 may not fully follow Knox, there’s still a requirement for the culprit to be at least mentioned.)
Besides that, any character mentioned and whose existance is established would be fine with Knox 1, flashback or no.