The murder weapon (Umineko spoilers)

07th Discussion
#1

I’ve been thinking about this for a while and I was wondering just how loud were the guns that Sayo used?
Its clear that the type of gun Sayo used was a Mare’s Leg, with the cartridge she used being Winchester rounds as outlined to us by the existence of the Chiester sisters and the fact that Sayo tells us her murder plans in EP7. The gun type was also a rifle and not a shotgun or anything.

Our Confession outlines that “The gunshot wasn’t loud… it’s not like the ‘bang’ sounds from TV or the movies. At most, it was as loud as uncorking a champagne bottle.”

However on the discord chat Usagi did argue how it would be impossible for the gunshot to be that quiet due to the large gaping wounds it created. And while sound likely wouldn’t have been a problem for Sayo as the typhoon likely would’ve covered it all up with the rain, wind and thunder-it does make me think just how loud those gunshots really were if Usagi’s claim was correct and if it was weird for the Ushiromiya’s not to notice anything regardless of the typhoon’s noise.

Any thoughts on this matter? (Also I was wondering on the prospect of no one hearing the Shrine blowing up-even if it was a boat ride away. Unless Sayo did it at 3:00am or something.)

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#2

Didn’t Sayo also use the surplus guns from the Italians? As for the noise of the guns, I thought about it too and just chalked it up to either the typhoon or r07 being a hack.

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#3

pls :annoyed:

But anyway, I’m not so sure about this surplus gun, have any evidence of it?

#4

For the guns I think the Confessions answer is sufficient. If caliber is the problem it’s entirely possible that Sayo just jammed the Stakes as far in as she could (the tip is thinner than the shaft I believe) and just gouged it around to make the hole bigger, thereby giving the stakes enough room to stick in.

For the bombs at the shrine, I assume Sayo conducted their experiment during a storm, much like the one at the time of the murders. The explosion could likely be confused for lightning striking, as Kumasawa explains the shrine’s disappearance. This could also apply to the sound of the gunshot, come to think of it.

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#5

I was also thinking this too. Cause the Ep7 tea party does show that the guns are powerful enough to take a person’s eyeball out at a distance, and you could just make the holes bigger by jamming the stakes in.
I think I can get some manga evidence in tomorrow to prove this-but i don’t think that the guns are as powerful as they seem.
edit: like look at this for example

the wounds are not that large tbh
the wounds are not that large tbh.png630x608 495 KB

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#6

That is a teeny tiny hole.

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#7

MR-18684-544792-45
MR-18684-544792-45.jpg1800x1321 833 KB

at the very least, there is evidence of surplus guns. not so sure about him actually using them

you are right (see above)

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#8

Like honestly, I just think that
Sayo just overplayed the destructive power of the guns so that everything would be more gruesome, but in reality the guns weren’t that destructive and thus wouldn’t have made that much noise.
For reference this is what a .22 mare’s leg sounds like and it looks extremely similar to the guns used in Umineko:

22
Mare's Leg .22.jpg996x190 61.1 KB

Its genuinely not that loud and can easily be masked by the storm

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#9

We already know Sayo has access to ‘a blood-like substance’ (I assume red paint) all they need to do is mash a few faces with the butt of the gun and throw some extra blood on the bodies and the wound will look much more impressive than it actually is.

Not that guns aren’t destructive mind you, they are still designed to kill humans quickly and efficiently.

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#10

Weren’t the guns confirmed to have been .45 Winchester and or Long Colt?

#11

Do you have a source for that information? Just looking at the Mare’s leg wikipedia page it says that this is the gun used by the characters in Umineko. It’s also the same gun that Hideyoshi identifies as Steve Mcqueen’s weapon in Ep1.

#12


i have some basis for it, also let me retroactively correct myself. it was 45 Winchester long colt

#13

Perhaps it be more prudent to list when and where you think guns were used as the murder weapon prior to trying to figure out what gun would work.

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#14

Ah well,

I can see the guns being used in Eva and Hideyoshi’s death in EP1
Jessica’s death in Ep2,and 4
and
Gohda and George’s death in Ep2 as well

I was considering adding Kumasawa, Nanjo and Gohda’s deaths in the first episode as well but they didn’t necessarily have to be shot with a gun as Sayo could’ve just smashed their faces using the butt of the gun.

45 is just the type of ammo however. Its not the edition of gun

#15

They died in the guest room of the main manor. The cousins and Natsuhi were in the parlour and the servants + Nanjo were allegedly in the kitchen of the same building. What kind of murder weapon (gun in your theory) could work here?

Godha, George and Shannon’s corpses were found in Natsuhi’s bedroom on the second floor. Battler, Rosa and Maria were in the parlour until the went over to the room. Battler checked Shannon’s corpse and could see into her skull. There was no clues showing that the corpses were moved here (blood trails, etc). What kind of murder weapon (gun in your theory) could work here?

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#16

I think this might be misdirection in a magic scene, a .45 round is much more impressive sounding than a .22 for the big epic goat-chase. It also might be commentary on the fact that Mcqueen in the show wore .45-70 on his person in his show, even though this isn’t a caliber of bullet he’d be using at all.

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#17

Also not to mention, this scene didn’t even happen at all. Rosa never fought those goats.

Sayo does state in her confession that she used a gun to commit suicide in both eps 2 and 4. Of course, she used some kind of trap so that the gun would either fall behind the drawer or into the well.

Not all the servants were in the kitchen-Kanon and Genji weren’t. Though now that i think about it-a gun didn’t exactly have to be used to murder the two.

This also wouldn’t be the last time the narration outright lied to the readers. The most prominent example of this is the narration describing forget-me-nots as the flower for truth when it isn’t

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#18

While I understand that alot of folk are buying the scenes in the manga as literal because Ryukishi gave it his greenlight, don’t forget that his original is completely dependent on observer interpretation. Given that ep4 is a forgery, it makes the nature of Confessions even more dubious.

I would accept this, however it appears to violate Knox’s 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!. Unless of course, you can describe a mechanism with the clues presented.

My main question about your gun theory is how you can explain it with the circumstances of the deaths. As a starter how was the gun shots not heard?

#19

The clues are:

In Ep1 it is established that Kinzo has a gun collection (i.e plural) so the existence of the gun is foreshadowed

Shannon is shown slumped against the dresser with the stake rolling at her feet. This is a closed room, no one could have pulled it out. The stake therefore was never in Sayo’s head to begin with.

The story is heavily influenced by Detective story “And Then There Were None” in which a similar trick is used to obscure the identity of the killer. The story is explicitly brought up in Ep7 and is stated to be a favourite of Sayo.

The gunshots were not heard due to the storm, plain and simple. This is foreshadowed by the comparison of Lightning strike to the explosion that caused the destruction of the Torii shrine

EDIT: made it blue for dramatic effect

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#20

Well for one thing, the gunshots would be covered up by the sound of the wind and rain and thunder. I’ve been inside pretty bad thunderstorms and sometimes I can’t even hear myself speak sometimes.
Not all the deaths would have to have been done by a gun of course-Genji could’ve stabbed Eva while she was fast asleep and attack Hideyoshi while he was in the shower and then Sayo could’ve just stuck stakes into their heads.
Now of course, I don’t remember what exact type of rifle was used-as although Rosa is shown using a Winchester with .45 rounds while defending Maria during the tea party-it could be that the narration was playing tricks and thus lying about the kind of gun she actually used. I’m not sure if the type of gun that’s used on Rokkenjima is stated outside of fantasy scenes-but regardless the gunshots would’ve been covered up by the horrible typhoon outside.

Also, there’s what Magnus said