The murder weapon (Umineko spoilers)

[Pandora]

Also not to mention, this scene didn’t even happen at all. Rosa never fought those goats.

Battler checked Shannon’s corpse and could see into her skull. There was no clues showing that the corpses were moved here (blood trails, etc). What kind of murder weapon (gun in your theory) could work here?

Sayo does state in her confession that she used a gun to commit suicide in both eps 2 and 4. Of course, she used some kind of trap so that the gun would either fall behind the drawer or into the well.

The cousins and Natsuhi were in the parlour and the servants + Nanjo were allegedly in the kitchen of the same building. What kind of murder weapon (gun in your theory) could work here?

Not all the servants were in the kitchen-Kanon and Genji weren’t. Though now that i think about it-a gun didn’t exactly have to be used to murder the two.

I think this might be misdirection in a magic scene, a .45 round is much more impressive sounding than a .22 for the big epic goat-chase.

This also wouldn’t be the last time the narration outright lied to the readers. The most prominent example of this is the narration describing forget-me-nots as the flower for truth when it isn’t

[Baelzaron]

Sayo does state in her confession that she used a gun to commit suicide in both eps 2 and 4

While I understand that alot of folk are buying the scenes in the manga as literal because Ryukishi gave it his greenlight, don’t forget that his original is completely dependent on observer interpretation. Given that ep4 is a forgery, it makes the nature of Confessions even more dubious.

Of course, she used some kind of trap so that the gun would either fall behind the drawer or into the well.

I would accept this, however it appears to violate Knox’s 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!. Unless of course, you can describe a mechanism with the clues presented.

My main question about your gun theory is how you can explain it with the circumstances of the deaths. As a starter how was the gun shots not heard?

[MagusVerborum]

The clues are:

In Ep1 it is established that Kinzo has a gun collection (i.e plural) so the existence of the gun is foreshadowed

Shannon is shown slumped against the dresser with the stake rolling at her feet. This is a closed room, no one could have pulled it out. The stake therefore was never in Sayo’s head to begin with.

The story is heavily influenced by Detective story “And Then There Were None” in which a similar trick is used to obscure the identity of the killer. The story is explicitly brought up in Ep7 and is stated to be a favourite of Sayo.

The gunshots were not heard due to the storm, plain and simple. This is foreshadowed by the comparison of Lightning strike to the explosion that caused the destruction of the Torii shrine

EDIT: made it blue for dramatic effect

[Pandora]

My main question about your gun theory is how you can explain it with the circumstances of the deaths. As a starter how was the gun shots not heard?

Well for one thing, the gunshots would be covered up by the sound of the wind and rain and thunder. I’ve been inside pretty bad thunderstorms and sometimes I can’t even hear myself speak sometimes.
Not all the deaths would have to have been done by a gun of course-Genji could’ve stabbed Eva while she was fast asleep and attack Hideyoshi while he was in the shower and then Sayo could’ve just stuck stakes into their heads.
Now of course, I don’t remember what exact type of rifle was used-as although Rosa is shown using a Winchester with .45 rounds while defending Maria during the tea party-it could be that the narration was playing tricks and thus lying about the kind of gun she actually used. I’m not sure if the type of gun that’s used on Rokkenjima is stated outside of fantasy scenes-but regardless the gunshots would’ve been covered up by the horrible typhoon outside.

Also, there’s what Magnus said

[Baelzaron]

The gunshots were not heard due to the storm, plain and simple. This is foreshadowed by the comparison of Lightning strike to the explosion that caused the destruction of the Torii shrine

[Good] I’ll accept your sound theory.

Now explain the device that makes the gun disappear.

[Pandora]

Ta-dah

All Battler had to do was to extensively check the crime scene-which he really didn’t do

[Baelzaron]

Beatrice accepted Battler’s method X cause she loved him.

However, I do not love you, hence I won’t accept method X.

[MagusVerborum]

The gun itself is tied by an elastic or rope so that it is attached to a heavy object which is behind the dresser. As soon as the triger-puller is killed it is only natural that their hold on the gun releases and it is pulled behind the dresser by the weight of the heavy object. This is foreshadowed by Umineko’s inspiration from Golden Age Detective mysteries and in particular Agatha Christie’s “And Then There Were None” in which a similar trick was used.

[Pandora]

okay

Geez, why you gotta be like that

[MagusVerborum]

We’re sciencing our way through this. I never got to do this my first time through Umi and i’m quite enjoying it

[Pandora]

it is fun I do admit

[Baelzaron]

@MagusVerborum Alright, I can concede to such a device.

Next point: This thread is about the murder weapon. What were the weapons (or method) used for all the other murders?

[Pandora]

As much as I’d love to also hit you up on that offer I have to get to bed.

You can expect a barrage of blue tomorrow though

[Neo_Rokkenjima]

Here are a few good pictures of characters from the games holding the rifle in question:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/c/c9/Ougon-kyrie.png/revision/latest?cb=20120122175431

These examples give us something to compare against visually in the future.

Incidentally, I’m sure you’ve already seen this but… just in case you haven’t… here you go: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Umineko:_When_They_Cry

According to IMFDB, the guns used in the games are allegedly Winchester 1894’s, chambered in .30, which have been modified to look more like the Mare’s Leg (in their words: by cutting down their barrels and re-fitting them with enlarged lever loops.) That claim, however, sounds completely wrong to me. At first glance, you would think it would be much easier to convert a Mare’s Leg to shoot .30 than to modify an 1894 so extensively as to look like a Mare’s Leg. Besides that the lever loop and the barrel-size of the “Rokkenjima Rifle” are obviously different than that of the 1894, the gun’s stock, the side of the gun, the shape of the wooden foregrip, and the front of the gun are also distinctly different from those of the 1894.

Actually, there’s really no other way to say this: The “Rokkenjima Rifle” would be a near-exact duplicate of Steve McQueen’s Mare’s Leg, if not for the fact that it has a blued-steel finish, as opposed to a brass finish.

As you can clearly see by these pictures, merely cutting down the barrel of an 1894 (pictured here: http://images.gunsinternational.com/listings_sub/acc_13414/gi_100828375/ANTIQUE-WINCHESTER-1894-RIFLE_100828375_13414_6E7B579FF85E3872.JPG) and refitting it with an enlarged level loop would simply not do the trick. Anyone with eyes can tell that the 1894 is nothing like the “Rokkenjima Rifle,” which resembles the Mare’s Leg much more closely. The 1894 and the Mare’s Leg are simply two completely different firearms.

Regarding the sound of the gunshot: .22LR is just about as quiet of a caliber as you can get. Silenced, firing a .22LR pistol is usually not much louder than clapping your hands loudly. Done correctly, it sounds sort of like a loud puff of air, and certainly does resemble the kind of sound which is described in “Our Confession.” Incidentally, you can buy a Mare’s Leg chambered in .22LR, but I seriously doubt that .22LR was the caliber which THE CULPRIT employed. My reason for saying this, besides that this theory seems to directly contradict what is said in-game, is because .22LR is notorious for its lack of firepower. This ““feature”” occasionally causes bullets to become deflected off of bone and remain within the body. Therefore, .22LR isn’t always guaranteed to create an exit wound, depending on the distance and angle from which it is fired. While this increases the caliber’s overall killing potential, believe it or not, and could even explain a few of Rokkenjima’s mysteries… I think it is much more likely that that the sound of the gunshot was merely reduced due to environmental factors. The island contains a lot of surrounding forest to dampen the sound and mitigate echo any time the gun is fired outside (not to mention, the sounds of fierce wind and downpour which could also help smother out a gunshot.) And if the gun is being fired inside… well, there you go. It was fired inside, and usually inside an adjacent building at that.

PS: Sayo is not the culprit, but that’s a completely separate issue which deserves a thread of its own.

[prototypeOEZ]

PS: Sayo is not the culprit, but that’s a completely separate issue which deserves a thread of its own.

Do we actually have a thread on that theory on rokkenjima?

It’d be difficult to title I presume because of spoilers.

[Pandora]

This is a really good post! Helps to clarify things a lot more but I do have one question.

And if the gun is being fired inside… well, there you go. It was fired inside, and usually inside an adjacent building at that.

Wouldn’t firing a gun inside make a lot more noise? Like, the walls inside the guesthouse and the mansion are very thick but I always assumed that firing inside a building would be louder. Not that it matters thanks to the typhoon of course as it could easily be passed off as thunder and I doubt that Sayo used her gun for everything.

Do we actually have a thread on that theory on rokkenjima?

It’d be difficult to title I presume because of spoilers.

Neo basically means that Sayo’s not the culprit of Rokkenjima Prime, which is true.

[Baelzaron]

walls inside the guesthouse and the mansion are very thick

Erika being able to hear through the guest room walls suggest otherwise

[Pandora]

That’s cause she’s a Mary Sue. She can (basically) do anything with her detective powers.

[MagusVerborum]

This is due to a concentrated effort on Erika’s part. Battler never stops to listen for a gunshot, certainly not in the next room over. If he did he would probably be able to hear them!

[Baelzaron]

Erika states “There was only a single thin wall between them.”