Spoilers discussion topic for Episode 5: End of the Golden Witch of Umineko When They Cry. Episode 5 refers to volumes 10-12 of the manga, and was not adapted by the anime series.
This topic is intended for people who have finished the entirety of Umineko and wish to discuss this Episode in light of future events. For those who have yet to finish Umineko in its entirety, please tread carefully, because there will be untagged spoilers! Please tag references to outside works with the [spoiler] tag, with adequate context provided in parenthesis.
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If you do know exactly what happened, donât speak up yet =P Iâd honestly really like to see if the people who do not could piece things together right here, right now.
When I was reading Umineko, to my later regret, I didnât really concern myself with solving the mysteries myself. Later on, curious about the more concrete answers the manga provides, I read some of it, including its solution for Episode 5.
That said, I donât remember the details of what exactly happened on the gameboard in Episode 5 all that well, which means I might not remember the âcorrect solutionâ either if my memory were to be refreshed.
Iâm confused about something here, well, unsure would be a better word for it. When the dear, dear child from 19 years ago calls Natsuhi, in the Alchemist version, they are voiced by the same voice actor as Battler. Now, Iâve only read the Alchemist version of Episode 5 and I donât know whether in the manga or original VN version, there is an implication that this person may be Battler, though the Alchemist version is completely similar to the original VN from what I hear. Iâve also read on the internet that there is a theory that, since this is somewhat of the answer arc for Episode 1, in which Yasu planned to bribe the others to become accomplices, the same thing may be happening here, and sheâs bribing Battler to call Natsuhi. Or was Yasu herself calling Natsuhi and they just randomly assigned Battlerâs voice actor for that part, which wouldnât make much sense, I think? Or are both theories possible and itâs never outrightly confirmed who it was?
Iâve finished my reread of episode 5 a few days ago and was wondering about the same thing for a while. I believe the voice is intentional and itâs Battler whoâs doing the phone calls. There arenât many confirmed details on what happened behind-the-scenes in this episode, however, Battler had to have been an accomplice here (along with all of the other adults besides Krauss and Natsuhi) as he pretended to have discovered the corpses in the cousinâs room.
I donât believe he was bribed though as he most likely understood that this wasnât just about playing a harmless prank on Natsuhi. I canât imagine him going that far for money. He was probably forced to play along with it (or Yasu told him about her past, he completely sympathised with it and willingly assisted her? Iâm not quite convinced of that).
I like to think itâs literally Black Battler =P As in the one actually doing the phone calls is Yasu, but since Lambda can insert whatever voice she wants into the narrative without breaking it she puts Black Battler in there, partly for the lulz, partly to mislead Bern/Erika into thinking the phone calls couldnât actually be happening.
I suppose Yasu shouldâve been involved somehow, otherwise theyâd have no way of knowing about the child from 19 years ago. Though I also think that this is Black Battler too. So, maybe after they found the gold, some of the adults met with Yasu or Beatrice and she told them who she was, then they kill her, or shoot her or something. After that, they plan to continue with the killings and Battler kills the cousins after he screams and Erika is running around the mansion checking the duct tape, though I may be wrong, as I donât remember well whether it was verified in red or something that something could or could not have happened when Erika was checking the tape. Anyhow, Iâm with this theory too, and I also believe that it was Black Battler as well.
Eh, while the post makes a good point about how he may have been disgusted at what Natsuhi and Krauss did, I donât think that it would be so over the top as Rudolf and Kyrie taking him out of the family register or something if he didnât go along with them. Though with the way Ryukishi portrays his characters, being so over the top cruel and uncaring to one another, it may have happened too, who knowsâŚ
Iâm sorry to disappoint, but yeah Iâm afraid I already finished Chiru before discovering Rokkenjima and the Tea Parties (otherwise I would probably have waited).
Of course I will share my thoughts on the episodes once Chiru releases on steam and the Umineko Tea Parties continue, though. ^^
Well, what I really canât figure out is the part involving the knock and the letter. The only satisfying answer Iâve imagined was that they simply never existed⌠What do you think about that ?
So with the Umineko Chiru Tea Party commencing, Iâd like to hear from veteran readers that picked up Chiru again as well nowadays how your impressions of it have evolved over time, and what you think of it nowadays. I see I posted a poll up there asking how many people put together the pieces of this episodeâs mystery; for those that havenât quite built their own full picture yet, it would be interesting to hear which parts are still blanks for you~
Though itâs not just mysteries where that would be interesting; even narratively this episode can be kinda mysterious at times. Lots of unanswered questions. Iâd like to hear you guysâ thoughts on some of the following:
Why does Erika, whoâs so proud of her own intelligence and mystery-solving skills, not re-evaluate her theory when Battler brings out his red truth during the trial? It may not be a valid argument to make from a human perspective, but as for the metaworld it should still be clear that itâs true, no? Wouldnât that make her reconsider?
What would Checkmate of the Golden Witch have looked like?
How can Dlanor just âsealâ the red truth in the Ura Tea Party and how does the gold truth suddenly become an acceptable argument?
Whatâs up with the sudden red truths the seven sisters of purgatory say as they pierce Erika? Why are they completely inconsequential and never addressed by the story at all afterwards?
Where did Kinzoâs corpse come from all of a sudden? How does Battler just âpresentâ it as evidence when it hasnât been found during the whole episode?
How did Erika revise her theory to be effective even with Kinzo being dead?
What was Lambdaâs aim during this episode? Looking out for Beato and trying to get Battler to reach the place she wanted him to, or just having random fun with Bern at her expense?
Do you think that with Episode 5 being now classified as an âAnswerâ arc that itâs kinda unacceptable for a bit of evidence like âthe man from 19 years agoâ to not have come up in the question arcs at all, despite being such an important bit of backstory for the culpritâs origin?
I think in regards to the âMan from 19 years ago bitâ, I still think one can conlude the culprit is :
Someone who had access to the gold, solved the epitaph, and became the head. This person likely was Kinzoâs spawn in some shape or form (given the hints we got in episode 2 and the bit where Rose meets Bice II)
2)That this person at the very least had some issue with their body- ie: all the furniture motifs in episodes 2 in particular seemed to connect being furniture to some aspect of love and lust.
So while the details may have not been fair, the gist of it can still be figured out by episodes 1-4.
You kind of said it yourself there. Pride. You can see how devastated she is later when she is forced to actually revise a part of her theory. Itâs just utterly inconceivable to her that she, the detective, could be wrong.
Also it seems pretty apparent she cares more about being right than the truth in these.
And that probably goes deeper than just her role. Let me underline this with some screens from ep6.
^Well she regretted winning that one but yknow, the point here is that whatâs important to her is that her truth can win out, not which one is actually true.
âŚprobably some pretty straightforward mystery that would have only served as Erikaâs power fantasy.
Would have probably involved some epic finale where she explains the other four games with Natsuhi as the culprit.
Hm⌠what sheâs basically invoking is the same thing that negated the red about Natsuhi. Knox accepts red as a clue, not as a solution or deduction. Most of Battlerâs other arguments are backed up by clues so itâs not like heâs really red truth-ing his way to victory in the first place.
The gold truth is the truth of a believing heart, and its strength as an argument is about as strong as youâre able to hold on to that belief. (which is why itâs sometimes weaker but sometines stronger than red truth. If not even the hardest of facts can make you waver, well - just look at Ange at the end I guess.)
Guess in this case Battler must have been pretty sure of it. (not like there was a direct red truth denying it, soâŚ)
You could also see it as Dlanor respecting his trust in the author and backing off.
They didnât feel inconsequential to me~. They hurt her theory, which relied on it. Also, I like to think that they were able to say it because they were the ones that actually killed them later on in the unseen part of the gameboard.
Erika probably worked her way around them when she fixes her theory off-screen, which is why they never come up again.
Probably in the incinerator as usual. I mean, itâs pretty clear that the corpse that usually shows up as Kinzoâs is meant.
It had no relevance on this particular gameboard but it still got to be somewhere, I guess.
Lot of shaky wordplay to get around it, Iâd wager. Could be a fun challenge to figure out the specifics.
Playing around with Bern. Certain scenes and tricks behind the mystery make it pretty obvious that she was playing to win rather than help out Battler. I mean, the phone call is a bit of a hint, but she confuses matters by pulling stuff like putting Shannon and Kanon into the same room as the detective with a lame excuse.
Lambda favors those with a strong will. At that point, Beato had given up and Battler was just kind of flailing around. She only really starts helping him when heâs about to flip everything on its head and it seems like the more entertaining thing to do.
Well, Willard does claim itâs solvable by EP4, with 5 and 6 being âextra hintsâ. I donât think that part could be completely solved without these hints though. Not really enough clues of Natsuhiâs crime before that. This comes down to what âsolvableâ means, and it means different things to different people⌠which happens to tie right into stuff I could say about the mystery talk Battler and Dlanor have in the ura tea party⌠heh, maybe Iâll take a closer look at that one later.
Heh, I said as much on Discord, but really, I think Ep5 in general is kinda rude to readers. Thatâs part of what makes it so interesting to reread, but Iâll be damned if things like Battler not being detective arenât going to throw off first-time readers.
Anyways, letâs see⌠(note: this was written over several hours, so I havenât read more recent posts in the topic, and itâs been a while since I last read Ep5 since Iâm focusing on my Ep6 blog analysis right now, so Iâm going off of memory here)
I should say before starting here that I do not like Erika very much at all. Maybe Iâm guilty of not looking at her with enough love, but she grates on my nerves quite a lot, especially in Ep6. Thatâs probably going to colour a lot of my observations about her here.
Having said that, I donât think she really cares about the truth so much as she cares about being âright the first timeâ. For instance, when Battler escapes from Kinzoâs study, she reacts incredibly negatively - not to him proving that Kinzo could still exist, but to being wrong, to everyone accepting Battlerâs explanation over hers. I feel like this is part of her character as a deconstruction of the mystery genre - a criticism of the detectiveâs ability to pinpoint the culprit successfully on first guess, and/or of the readers to cling to their theory of choice even when itâs more or less disproven. Plus, since Battlerâs red was given to him by a non-player, well⌠who cares?
Oooh⌠This is an interesting one that I hadnât thought about before. I dunno about the gameboard mystery, but I imagine narratively itâd be a power trip for good 'ol Erika and her detective powers, and sort of a âfinishing blowâ to the image of Natsuhi as a woman who cares for her family.
I feel like this question has a lot to do with the nature of red and gold truths, so hereâs my two cents:
Red truth exists as a âgameâ concept, usable by any player depending on the rules (up until Ep5, for instance, only the witch side is allowed to use it outside of a few situations (Battler trying to say Asumu is his mother and Angeâs red plea to Battler towards the end of Ep4), while after that itâs available for either side). The key thing about red is that it allows its users to say something thatâs true from their perspective - Kanon was killed in this room, Kanon was the first of the group to escape the dungeon to die, Ushiromiya Battler is Ushiromiya Asumuâs son, Natsuhi only ever told Shannon about Fall being her favourite season, etc. In that sense, Battler saying âUshiromiya Kinzo is already deadâ in red is open to interpretation, and doesnât necessarily prove anything.
Gold truth, on the other hand, exists as a concept that can only be used by someone if they know everything about what theyâre talking about. Weâve got only two instances of gold truth being used - once by Battler here, and once by Elder Beato in Ep6 about magic - but weâve also got Willard making reference to it in Ep7, so thatâs where most of my thinking here comes from. The thing about gold truth that makes it tricky is that anything can be said in gold, so long as the speaker has the ability to use the gold in the first place. The reason I say this is because of Willâs explanations - âThe gold truth locks the lock of illusions,â in reference to the chapel murders in Ep2, for instance. The solution is that the door wasnât locked, but that Yasu and her accomplices agreed on a story where it was locked - that became their gold truth. In the context of TP5, âI guarantee, without a doubt, this is Ushiromiya Kinzoâs corpse!â proves that he understands everything about the gameboard, about Yasuâs heart, and thus knows for certain both that Kinzoâs dead and what Krauss and Natsuhi did with his corpse (I feel that theyâd have found a way to preserve it as opposed to leaving it to rot in his study, since that would probably become obvious pretty damn quickly, but Iâm still not 100% sure).
Iâm⌠not sure I get what you mean by âcompletely inconsequentialâ here. As far as never being addressed goes⌠Iâve always felt that the explanation was kinda implicit in the Battler-culprit theory: As one of the cousins, heâd have a good chance to make them side with him as accomplices, and as the man from 19 years ago, I think heâd be able to convince the servants to side with him as well. He just has to tell them to play dead, then hide when everyone leaves.
As said above, I imagine Krauss and Natsuhi were hiding it somewhere to begin with. Iâm not quite sure where thatâd be, but wherever it is, I suspect itâd be somewhere normally only open to the servants, so none of the other family members can stumble on it by mistake.
From there, itâd be easy for Lion to dump Kinzoâs body in the boiler like what happens in the other Episodes, so⌠Yeah.
Uhhh⌠Good question! I honestly have no idea, haha.
If any of her motives took precedence here, I think she was just having fun messing around with Bern. She set up the board, so she knows that Natsuhi isnât the culprit, but sheâs perfectly happy to take that as an answer because thatâs the kind of story Bern would find most interesting. When Battler revives and she realizes that he knows the truth, I think she changes her mind because she realizes that this is the miracle Beato was hoping for all along.
For one thing, to be honest, I donât like the name âAnswer Arcsâ for Chiru. For Higurashi Kai, it made sense, because the answers were given to you pretty easily, but with Umineko, the reader still has to do a lot of work themselves. I much prefer either âBreakdownâ or âCoreâ for Chiruâs English name (plus Core Arcs draws a fun parallel to Battlerâs Ep1 theme being called Core).
Having said that, I donât think Iâd really consider Ep5 an âanswerâ arc anyways. The end of Episode 5 is arguably where our detective announces âall the clues have been presented,â by way of Battler arriving at the truth himself, even if we havenât.
At any rate: While itâs true that thereâs nothing to really hint at Natsuhiâs crime or the man from 19 years ago in Ep1-4, I do think there are enough hints scattered throughout for an attentive reader to hit on key parts of the truth. Things like Beatoâs ranting at Shannon about sexuality, Kinzoâs sin being âsomething he can never take back,â Beatrice IIâs death as a parallel to Lionâs âdeathâ and Yasuâs âbirthâ⌠Thematically, itâs mostly there.
I am bored so Iâll try answering these questions, from what little I can remember from Episode 5.
Well, Erikaâs superiority complex preceeds her intelligence. She becomes very distraught when sheâs not right and even when her theoryâs precarious, she wonât revise it. Actually, the thought of trying to revise it wonât even cross her mind, because as Bernâs piece, thatâs her purpose, to be the detective and provide the right answers. What I mean by that is, the gameboard is all Erikaâs ever known, and aside from her detective skills, I suspect Erika doesnât have much intelligence about other things at all. To her, sheâs the only one who can be right and she muffles out all other opinions except her own and wonât even take them into account. She does not know how to cooperate with others and listen to their opinion too, sheâll only listen when somebody has come to the same conclusion as her, and besides, she doesnât even need to listen or accept othersâ opinions, she can act like she does and deftly revise her theory by taking into account othersâ observations that she might have missed as well.
Thatâs the name Erika choose for the 6th game, yes? Well, probably very over the top and ludicrous.
I donât remember the scene mentioned in the first part of the question and besides, Iâm not well-versed in the aspects of the red truth, know nothing at all about them, actually, but for the second part of the question, from what I can understand, by this point in the VN, the gold truth is the highest form of all truths weâve been shown so far. Now, I havenât read Episode 8 yet, but Iâve heard of the purple truth, though I know nothing about what it is, so I canât be certain whether the purple truth is a higher form of the gold truth. Anyways, the gold truth is irrefutable, shows that Battler has understood everything and is absolute, from what I understand.
Donât remember the scene youâre talking about.
Um, I canât remember when Battler brought up Kinzoâs corpse and I canât remember the scene at all really, but I assume that, maybe, at some point of Episode 5, it was maybe hinted that some of the Ushiromiya family members, including Battler, came across Kinzoâs corpse? Another possibility is that maybe Yasu revealed it to the family that Kinzo is dead? I mean, in the PS3 version, which is the one Iâve played, the man from 19 years ago is voiced by the same voice actor as Battler, who Iâm guessing is Black Battler in this episode, and he and maybe all of the others except for Natsuhi, Krauss and maybe Jessica were bribed by Yasu, who revealed herself to them after Battler solved the epitaph, confirming that Kinzo is dead and thus assuming that there must be a corpse? Well, like I said, I donât remember anything about it, so these assumptions of mine are very precarious.
By subtly making the idea of Kinzo being dead and of Kinzo being alive exist at the same time, I suppose.
Messing around with Bern, but also maybe wanting to show the darker parts of the game to Battler too. She was also frustrated with Beatrice, cause she made the game difficult for Battler, so she gave some more direct hints to Battler.
Actually, I think that would be giving too much away, were it to be mentioned in the question arcs. It is a very big clue, and I think all fans who were theorising at the time when the games were being released, would immediately settle on the culprit being the man from 19 years ago, and would just focus on figuring out who that person is and would limit themselves to suspecting only the cousins, except for Maria and Ange, and Shannon and Kanon, which could narrow it down pretty quickly. I mean, like somebody here said, Will says that it is possible to solve the mystery by using only the clues presented during the answer arcs, and with all the furniture talk going on with Shannon and Kanon, when the reader figured out what furniture really stood for, theyâd understand that the culprit had gender issues. Now, whilst most people who prefer to be the other gender or both genders havenât gotten into, you know, an accident that has damaged their body, so yes, most wouldnât have figured out that part without the clue. Also, what Iâve noticed when seeing newer fans that are in the process of playing Umineko post here, is that they theorise that Beatrice is the third in a line, though they mostly guess that she was just some orphan adopted from the Fukuin house and wasnât related to the previous Beatrices by blood, which honestly, is not that far from the truth. Not having this clue wonât give you the truth in detail, but youâll get pretty close to it.
