Erika and Bern give a pretty good depiction of it with the sequential executions planned
Red truth cannot be spoken unless it’s true.
“Golden truth is on par with the Red Truth, but depending on the situation, it can be inferior or superior”. Gold truth also does not contradict Knox’s 2nd " forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique"
Could one solve this arc without these clues? I know I couldn’t
Didn’t Lambda already declare in EP3, “When’ll you stop fooling around? …Do you even feel like winning?”. Now it’s a question of what you think Lambda considered as Beato’s win
I think that the assurance that an answer exists qualifies. Did the relatives not speculate about the love child in most of the question arc episodes?
One full EP to build up for one scene taking longer then setting up a spirit bomb
Seeing as neither of them were there when Krauss and Nastuhi learned about Kinzo’s death, my guess would be that one of them, likely Shannon (I forget if the “Father is not dead” scene is specified to take place later on the same day or not), was on-duty on the island to begin with. Since she’d been working for the family for so long and she was one of the servants who was allowed to enter Kinzo’s study, I imagine Krauss and Natsuhi wouldn’t want to just up and fire her like that - it’d rouse too much suspicion. As for Kanon… I’d imagine Genji suggested keeping him around to help with maintaining the illusion.
That’s a good question. My inclination would be that Natsuhi believes in magic the same way most people “believe in magic” - I think everyone’s had one of those “disagreements” inside their head when they’re unable to decide on what to do. In the context of the gameboard, though, Natsuhi’s pondering of how to keep up Kinzo’s illusion is viewed through a “fantasy” lens, so instead of seeing her walking herself through what she should do and what’s possible, we see her working with Beatrice & co. to keep the seal on Kinzo’s study intact.
I believe the Ep8 manga addresses this (manga spoilers) - The story as told from a meta perspective is from Battler’s point of view. While Erika only witnessed one of them (and wouldn’t have seen Battler’s point of view at the time), Bern would’ve “seen” Shannon and Kanon in the parlour at the same time. I believe Erika also goes on to tell Battler that, when rereading Ep5 and 6, she noticed how the narrative differed from her observations, as well as getting handwave explanations for why Shannon/Kanon was absent at any particular moment (“he’s making the bed in a guestroom at the moment,” “she’s in the kitchen right now, I’ll go get her,” or some such).
I could be wrong, but I seem to recall seeing a scan that included something like that in it.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking here. I think she was having fun just messing around with the gameboard like Bern was, but when Battler revived and she realized that his determination to reach the truth had paid off, she had a change of heart. Sorta like how (Ep6 spoilers) when Chick-Beato declares “with certainty” that she’ll find a way to rescue Battler from his logic error, Lambda leaves her with the knowledge that the old Beato could have definitely found a way to do it, so long as she never gave up.
Heh, yeah, that scene was pretty funny. Lambda is great.
Pretty much, Yasu’s motive is completely different in episode 5. There is no roulette, etc. Just a child wanting vengeance against the family that hurt her (I think she even kills Maria immediately? I don’t remember the actual episode’s timeline) I guess there is also the fact that Lambda is not meta-Beato, she’s not playing to have Battler understand her, but for her own reasons (Mostly related to her obsession and love for Bern).
Unrelated to the question, but to me episode 5 always felt one of the most key episodes when it came to understanding Yasu. The existence of the man from 19 years ago and especially the cliff should have hinted better in the previous episodes. Or at least, the cliff should have been mentioned in episode 3 or 4, in some way.
But isn’t that what Beatrice ultimately wants, to be shown for what she really is by Battler? What I mean by saying that is, in all of her games, she constructs all of these convoluted mysteries and scenarios to make Battler understand her, thus the popular phrase ‘without love, it can’t be seen’ which means that without love and compassion for Sayo, you won’t be able to understand anything about her. If you take that into account, then yes, Lambda is showing her exactly for who she is, the child from 19 years ago and a vengeful person, as in the Confessions of the Golden Witch chapters in the manga she did truly want revenge on all of the adults, on some for more… precarious reasons than the others, but still. But, at the same time, Lambda is showing her in a bad light, not showing all that she’s been through and her complex emotions about many different things, but instead portrays her as just a vengeful murderer. So I think Lambda was getting tired by Beatrice’s games, as she tells her in the Hidden Tea Party in Episode 3, and maybe cause of her frustration with her, she wanted to expose some of her most unlikable aspects to Battler, without giving any reason behind them. And also, in Episode 7, when Bernkastel gives Sayo the form of Clair, so that she won’t have to show her pitiful true self, that and many other things throughout the story say that Sayo wants others to understand to her, but is too scared of what they’ll think of her at the same time. So yeah, since some part of her was too ashamed to be understood by others, maybe Lambda played on that part of her, the part that only wants to murder the Ushiromiya family. Which isn’t ‘love’ in the context of the, uh, kind of ‘love’ that’s spoken of in this game, but it is a sort of slight understanding of the culprit at the same time.
I’ll give my alternative take just to increase the angles of thought:
What if we look at the Mystery Game itself as a love letter between the player and game master (following the similar note by R7). Could then the lack of love be seen as the lack of consideration for the game master towards the player? Beatrice always played inclusively with Battler, but Lambda plays as she said before “With all her pieces replaced with Bishops and her opponent with all Pawns”.
I have a question, I’m not sure if this was ever explained and I’m just forgetting or if they never explained this, but I’d like to ask about something in Erika’s introduction. How do they explain why Erika can be in the same room as both Shannon and Kanon? She’s the detective, she can’t see fantasy scenes, and Shannon and Kanon being in the same room at the same time always makes that scene fantasy. Even if it doesn’t show us, the player, because we’re seeing through Battler’s perspective, Erika should still know the TRUE number of people from that scene, and yet she doesn’t, which is how the finale of Episode 6 works.
Shouldn’t your question actually be in the Episode 6 thread?
Well anyway, I’ve actually just finished the episode 8 manga a few months ago and it went to great lengths to explain that: Erika exclaimed in hindsight that she thought Kanon was busy preparing her room during this scene.
Which… is quite of a stretch, come to think of it. You are right to be confused, because this works only under the assumption that Purgatory-Erika doesn’t know what her piece is seeing, only what Battler reveals to her, which is kind of defeated by Erika’s piece acting purposely in order to derail the narrative because she is aware of the meta-level. It’s… a bit of a cop-out, actually…
Would it fit better in Episode 6? The only thing relevant to Episode 6 is a sentence at the end. My main topic is about Episode 5.
How the hell did Erika even think that to begin with? With how the scene was described in the VN, I got the impression that she was facing Kanon. And yeah, for what is otherwise such a tightly knit narrative, that explanation really isn’t good.
First of all, the scene where Shannon and Kanon are acknowledged to be in the same room as Erika was from Battler’s perspective, and Erika herself probably never saw Kanon and Shannon at the same time.
It happens early in the first day of Episode 5. Jump to “Furudo Erika”, and you’re going to have to skip a decent chunk of text. It’s the first time Erika’s sprites appears after the scene when Battler rejoins the game.
I guess the best answer I have is: Erika never directly acknowledged that Kanon and Shannon were in the same room together. Is there a single scene where Erika spoke to Kanon and Shannon separately, in the same room? There isn’t because that would be impossible. I believe she either saw Kanon, or saw Shannon, but never both at the same time.
In Erika’s introduction, Battler directly acknowledges Shannon and Kanon as being in the same room, and as we know, he’s not the detective anymore so he’s allowed to see what he wants. It is possible that simply Shannon either wasn’t there with Kumasawa or that Battler just “added” Kanon into that scene.
Meta Battler isn’t the one we’re following in that scene, though - it’s part of the game written by Lambda. The person we’re following is Battler the piece, who is an accomplice. The piece is aware of what’s going on. Much in the same way other times in the story other accomplice pieces saw things that obviously weren’t there and only existed as a means to confuse the readers.
While that may be true, however the earliest Erika scene states right in the narration “Right now, no humans exist on this island except for those in this parlor.”.
Kanon and Shannon have not been killed and Erika had seen both of them prior to that moment, and she isn’t stupid enough to forget someone when she gathered everyone.
I asked this question before, but no one wanted to give it a go, so I’ll give my answer. Only trick I can think of to do this is have one of the “dead” pretending to be Shannon or Kanon in the scenes since Erika first entered the island and have everyone cover it. Hence why Erika doesn’t recognize a fake Shannon or Kanon in that scene.