Makes perfect sense if Ange is the culprit (My non-canon joke theory)
For a canon answer however, the conversation about Ange being sick mentions that she has a weak stomach. If you take that as evidence that the sickness could be intentional, and add in Rudolf was an accomplice, then you get Beatrice ordered it to create the illusion of the witch. Would creating a prophetic message bottle not be considered magic?
Well, there’s also another solution, in my mind.
I’ve generally been of the idea that Yasu’s messages were more tales that had in them the skeleton of a story that told the events from start to finish, focusing on the mystery and the potential presence of the witch, rather than having all of the dialogue and exchanges written out. For example, Legend was signed by Ushiromiya Maria. However, the narration in Legend is such that it doesn’t really make sense to have been written by Maria. Not to mention, for something as massive as Legend to have been written on something that was described as a notebook scrap is a bit weird, too. As such, it’s entirely possible that the tale of Legend did not necessarily have all of the details or exchanges that ended up being present in the actual episode. Those were reinterpreted and expanded on through imagination and the meta-world itself.
So, for example, it’s entirely possible that Ange DID exist in Legend and Turn, but was not referred to directly. She could’ve just been made part of the group of ‘cousins’ or similar groups, and when it was established that Ange never went to the island that day, it was naturally interpreted the stories did not have her to begin with. After all, Yasu had no real direct connection or any sort of feelings towards Ange that we’re aware of. So she could’ve just chalked her down to a side role.
Tohya’s later forgeries would be his attempts to regain his memory, both through Yasu’s tales and the knowledge on the aftermath of the incident recorded in the real world. Since he knew the official chain of events didn’t have Ange on the island, he figured she truly never was there, and thus never included her.
Of course this leaves the door open for a theory where Ange COULD’VE been present on prime, was purposely not shown to be by Bernkastel to fuck with her, got taken by Eva to safety, and then from the sheer shock had her mental state destroyed, causing Eva to convince her she was never on the island to begin with and everyone else going along with it. This would mean that Erika and all her representations were actually manifestation of Ange’s psychosis and the desire to learn the truth; how Erika is allowed to exist on the gameboard to begin with, why the adults would’ve bothered to set up the EP6, and Erika’s appearance in the Trick ending.
Of course, it’s probably not the case, but. Y’know.
I delayed writing my thoughts about Episode 8 for quite a while by now, but now just want to ramble on with my musings. Thing is, several weeks ago (shortly before I signed up here) in my noob-tastic attempt to make an Umineko MMV I scoured the entire Manga trying to look for pictures that I could use to tell the entire story of Umineko. For the Question Arcs that was my first reading of the Manga and it showed…
… because Episode 8 destroyed me. After I finished it, I was left a sobbing mess who couldn’t form a coherent thought for at least 30 minutes and even then my first reaction was to jump some unsuspecting acquaintances to gush over Umineko. Damn, this adaptation is bloody brilliant!
Thing is… when I read Episode 8 the first time, it was far from my favourite episode. It doesn’t have the twisting turns of Episodes 5 and 6 and for me, Episode 7 gave all the answers I needed to construct my truth. Ange’s journey was good, don’t get me wrong, especially since she had been my favourite character for a long time and is still among my top 3. I just thought that in the VN Battler was overdoing it with his insistence that Ange should deny the truth and construct a fantasy in which her family still lives. Treasuring their memories and moving on is one message, but I had the impression that during many parts of it Battler was insisting that she should totally reject reality, something that comes awfully close to what Yasu did and that gave me a really bad feeling that was only salvaged by the beauty of the Magic Ending. I chalked it up to Tohya messing up with the messaging, but that still meant that Episode 8 was kinda lackluster to me.
Then came the Manga. Now I am actually floored. Because it straight-up addressed all the issues I had with the VN version: Beatrice’s talk with Ange in Golden Land was a magnificient addition! In many ways, Ryukishi obviously listened to criticism similar to mine and softened up Tohya’s messages to Ange in a far more healthy way, the way I always expected the intention to actually be. Then came the additions to the magic ending and the bridge to the magic one, filling the gaps with events that came awfully, awfully close to what I already imagined happened, so of course I was just sitting there with a wide grin while watching my theories come to life.
The only odd thing was the inclusion of ‘Confession of the Golden Witch’ replacing Eva’s diary containing a retelling of the Episode 7 Tea Party. Simply because I thought it redundant. The Manga version of Episode 7 already lifted the veil (to a degree that I also found somewhat self-defeating, but that’s a different discussion), so I kept asking myself why I have to read the same painful story of Yasu again, especially when the Book of One Truth doesn’t have anything to do with the solutions to the gameboards. Oh well…
Still… I found the Manga version of Episode 8 to be far superior to the original VN and bloody hell, Ange’s journey really wrecked me. At least I can invoke these feelings whenever I hear a certain song that for me just completely encompasses everything I adore about the relationship between Battler and Ange:
Of course it is “Teo Torriatte” by Brian May, penned for Queen’s Japan tours. The lyrics are just… stunningly perfect for Umineko and especially Episode 8. I teared up the first time I heard it, because I couldn’t stop thinking about Ange and her survivor guilt and Battler’s attempts to give it closure.
If you don’t believe me, here the lyrics:
When I’m gone,
no need to wonder if I ever think of you.
The same moon shines
The same wind blows for both of us
And time is but a paper moon.
Be not gone!
Though I’m gone
it’s as though I hold the flower that touches you.
A new life grows.
The blossom knows.
There’s no one else could warm my heart as much as you.
Be not gone!
Let us cling together as the years go by.
Oh my love my love!
In the quiet of the night
Let our candle always burn
Let us never lose the lessons we have learned!
Teo torriatte konomama iko
Aisuruhito yo
Shizukana yoi ni
Hikario tomoshi
Itoshiki oshieo idaki
Hear my song.
Still think of me the way you’ve come to think of me.
The nights grow long,
But dreams live on.
Just close your pretty eyes
And you can be with me.
Dream on!
Teo torriatte konomama iko
Aisuruhito yo
Shizukana yoi ni
Hikario tomoshi
Itoshiki oshieo idaki
When I’m gone
They’ll say we were all fools
And we don’t understand.
Oh be strong!
Don’t turn your heart!
We’re all!
You’re all!
For all!
For always!
Let us cling together as the years go by
Oh my love my love
In the quiet of the night
Let our candle always burn
Let us never lose the lessons we have learned
Could you sum up the scenes and viewpoints that brought you to that conclusion? I’m interested in seeing what the exact issues people had with EP8 as I thought it was excellent on first read, even moreso on reread (not just the ending and the purple game).
I can’t put my finger on single scenes because it is several years since I’ve read the VN. All I can say is that this whole thing about Ange being pressured into rejecting reality rubbed me the wrong way. I waited for the point in which Battler encouraged her to move on and keep going and that never happened, instead this whole ‘your family never died, you should still wait for our return’ shit went on and on and on and on. I really didn’t find that helpful at all and didn’t think it was a good thing for Tohya to forcefully shove down her throat. Especially when it reminds you so much of what Yasu did.
That’s why, when I indeed found these messages about keeping her memories in her heart and move on in the Manga, I was quite pleased.
Episode 8 got a pretty bad rep from the fandom back when it was released, but I’m pretty sure that only happened because people wanted answers that Ryukishi was obviously never going to give us, or at least not give us so easily. Twilight is definitely the most meta of the 8 arcs, considering that it’s the only arc that has actual choices for the reader to make and the majority of the events take place outside the gameboard. Say what you will, but I think EP 8 and the magic ending in particular is the perfect ending to Umineko, because it leaves the catbox closed. Highlights of this episode for me include the Battle for the Golden Land, Lambda v. Bern, the Lixaxil duels, the boat scene, and Bern’s puzzle, which is one of my favorite moments in any episode of Umineko.
I feel like the whole Battle for the Golden Land sequence deserves a lot more credit than it gets. It is so powerful and goddamn poetic. After so many fragments of the family members being pitted against each other, killing each other, their worst traits being exposed over and over again, the Ushiromiya family takes a stand, and not only fully embraces their negative qualities, but also highlights their positive qualities.
Precisely! Seeing the entire collective Ushiromiya family fighting together was a real treat.
Finished reading this a couple of days ago and wow, that hit me hard. It’s been over a year since I began reading Umineko and it’s hard to believe i’m done with it. I absolutely adored most of this episode, as I absolutely love what Umineko has become. I’m glad we were able to get a conclusion to Ange’s character arc, and with it firmly get statements on what the audience was supposed to get from Umineko. I was very happy that Lambdadelta got so many good moments, as she’s definitely a favorite of mine. Everything related to Ange and Eva made me want to cry, in a good way. The only thing I’d say I was slightly lukewarm on was the reveal Hachijo Tohya. I get why it happened, and it was very heartwrenching, and while it felt fitting the very end of the Hidden Tea Party was a bit to out there and strange for me. Small complaint though and I still loved the ending on the whole. The “where they are now” ending for the magic characters cracked me up.
Umineko will stay with me for a long time, I can firmly say that it has become my favorite piece of media, and I can’t wait to revisit it someday in the future.
Well, I don’t have time just yet for the next episode of ‘Jokrono understands more about Umineko than he thought’, but I want to make a post before the podcast happens, which, by the way;
So check out the discord to get in on those shenanigans.
Episode 8 was just incredible. I think that will go down as one of the greatest media experiences I’ve ever had, and I only hope that something can beat it, because that is a high benchmark.
I didn’t actually enjoy Episode 8 as much as I think I should have. There are parts of Episode 8 that I really didn’t find myself enjoying. Particularly the ridiculously long sequence of fights. Moment-to-moment, those scenes were really cool but they just went on for way, way too long as a collective whole, in my opinion. In part, I think that having to record and perform those sequences for about 6 hours straight really took away from it for me because I was just exhausted by the end. Even with that taken in to account, I would much rather have just seen that visual and have it summarized than have to read through that entire fight sequence from the end of Bernkastel’s game until when the Key is retrieved. I think that writing engaging, long form fights is one of the hardest things to do effectively, and Ryukishi certainly got close in my opinion but I certainly was left wanting a summary and some animated visuals. More on that in the big post, though, I think.
Despite that, much like Episode 4, those problems couldn’t even come close to scratching the surface of how unbelievably good this episode was. Not only was it incredibly vindicating to have all of those theories proven right, but the fact that I understood those moments going in to them made them so much more incredible. The entire opening sequence up until the end of Bernkastel’s game was some of the most fun I’ve had in this novel. There’s a certain point of view I’ll go in to a bit more in the big post but I really, really loved picking apart the alternate perspective on the family that Battler held. Also, I’ll probably end up restating myself in the big post, when I get the chance, but I honestly don’t care, I’m happy to restate this as many times as I can; the moment Battler and Beatrice got in to the boat, I already had my suspicions about what would happen next, but the moment Beatrice said ‘close your eyes’ I knew exactly what I was in for, and I was biting back tears the whole rest of the night. And that was before we got the Tea Parties. Sure the first one was a bit of goofy fun, but if I know Ryukishi, I knew that meant I was in for turmoil next, and boy was I. That scene in the Fukuin house was just astounding. I feel like whipping out a thesaurus and sticking every long word of praise before it I can would still be doing it a disservice. Normally Ange’s voice is a hard one for me to perform in sad scenes because the physicality of doing that voice makes it hard to hold back tears, but even once I managed to push past that I was in Battler’s voice, one of the easiest ones for me to do, and it still had me closer to tears than I would have dreamed this book ever could. I’m still honestly a bit hazy eyed just reflecting on this now.
So yea.
Holy shit Ryukishi.
Yeah. I think I’ve come to terms with the fact that this Episode is far from perfect. But in terms of what it conveys, it’s still one of the most goddamn beautiful endings I could have hoped for. Bravo, Ryukishi.
One noteworthy aspect of this Episode is how it addresses “the truth”. The catbox of Rokkenjima is a big focus of the story, but what about the catbox of the outside world, the future? From Episode 4 at least, the future seemed pretty fixed and reliable as a point of reference. But Episode 8 completely tears that apart and makes us begin questioning what even is “real” in this work of fiction. I know that’s a weird thing to say, but yet so many people are so determined to sort out the ‘truth’ of Umineko’s world. But it feels like Episode 8 was written to be especially regressive here. Bernkastel states that there’s no way Ange could possibly survive the jump, which makes anything that happens after that in any of the Episodes extremely dubious. There’s Ikuko using the red truth in a goddamn press conference with no attempt at explaining how that’s possible. And then there’s Ange telling Okonogi that he told her the words “Without love it cannot be seen”, even though that happened in the Episode 8 reality where she did jump off the building. Lots of weird stuff going on. It’s as if Ryukishi is trying to get people to stop worrying about what’s real and what’s not, and just demonstrate that the goal of determining the canonicity of Umineko’s timelines isn’t really the point. Well, what do you think about that? Do you think he’s trying to lead us off, or am I just being lazy and not thinking hard enough?
It’s almost as though the entire story of Umineko is fantasy 
It’s almost 4 am over here and the podcast is recorded in two hours, I just finished, and I don’t think I can think very clearly right now, but I wanna say that this episode was great.
I am still of the impression that most stuff in all episodes exists in Layer X as written tales, but what’s very difficult now is figuring out at exactly which point the two Hachijos started writing this tale for Ange. Actually, considering Ange started writing as well, there’s a new idea I have, which might work, and again, it’s late, so this won’t be the most reasoned out post, but basically I’m wondering if Ange, at some point after the ending we see, started taking the two episodes written by Sayo and the six written by Hachijo, and simply modified them to include her story, as well as modified them to be this series of consecutive games instead of individual tales. In this theory, I suspect that all Tea Parties were added by her, considering that Bern’s vessel seems to be connected to Hachijo, which makes not much sense if she already appears in the first two tales. For the main tales, it’s anyone’s guess what was added and what was already there really, and I’m not really interested in dissecting into figuring out what was what. Also considering I suspect this to happen after Ange was reunited with her brother, this could totally be a VN in universe, heh.
And while I called it a theory, by now I feel the term head canon is more fitting in my case, because really, this is something I could see and like to believe in, but don’t really want to force on others.
So, here we are, at the end of a very long journey. Where to start…
First off, even though I’ve said it like four times already - @Aspirety Thank you for having me on board for the Ep8 podcast. Even if I only joined in for the last two podcasts, and even if I was a bit of a nervous wreck for most of the Ep7 podcast, it was a ton of fun to be able to discuss things like this and bounce ideas and interpretations around. I’ve still got my own analysis blog to finish (still slogging through Episode 6, god help me), but I’ve taken a liking to the idea of analysis videos as well. I’ve already got an idea for one to start with, too… 
Now then! Episode 8 itself. Well, uh, as I’ve alluded to a few times (mostly on Discord I think?), I wasn’t a big fan of Ep8 when I first read it. While I don’t know how to put into words exactly what I would’ve hoped to see after Episode 7 (especially that Tea Party), Ep8 as a whole felt like a bit of a letdown in that regard.
I feel like I should clarify - when I say I don’t like Episode 8, I really mean as a whole - the first half or so, with Ange and the family and the quiz party and such, is a heart-touching send-off to the Ushiromiyas as a whole (though that whole “Battler is Kyrie’s son” thing was handled… pretty anticlimactically, imho!) and really quite fun and cute to read, and the whole ending - starting with Ange fully realizing her potential as a Witch of Resurrection, to Battler and Beato leaving Rokkenjima, to Ange and Tohya meeting in the future - is pretty much perfect (I think it’s interesting how, in a way, Battler/Tohya ends up being a sort of “inversion” of Sayo/Beato’s circumstances, in terms of “characters” and “split personalities” and such).
The fight scenes in between aren’t really what I was signing up for, so I don’t feel too strongly about them (though it’s great to see the whole Ushiromiya family get one last time to shine during their defense of the Golden Land), but as a whole, the Episode doesn’t really mesh together for me as well as, say, Episode 4 does, in spite of its own pacing problems.
Having said that, I still think Episode 8 is a fitting, beautiful ending for the series and Ange’s character arc. I don’t shed tears a lot (I get highly emotional, but tears just don’t happen that often for whatever reason), but I’ll be damned if Umineko doesn’t bring me very, very close to it at times.
I can’t really think of anything else to say right now, so… <Have a nice day.> See you again, when something else cries.
Then I advise you to look into the manga version next. 
Like I stated above, when reading the VN of episode 8 I had issues with it as well, but the manga version is basically just perfect! At least I was left a wreck afterwards.
Oh, I’ve read the manga version, yeah. It’s got its ups and downs, for me - on one hand, some of the added or changed scenes (the scene when Ange first wakes up in the Golden Land immediately comes to mind) are a lot more effective, I feel, than their VN equivalents.
On the other hand, though, even without bringing Confession of the Golden Witch into things, the manga pushes the “correct answer” a bit much for me. I have absolutely 0 problem accepting Shkanon/Sayo Yasuda as canon - I clued into her existence around Episode 4, and getting to meet her in Ep7 was truly magical, and since then she’s become a character very, very dear to me - but I feel like a lot of the magic around her was in seeing through the layers of the fantasy and finding her for yourself. The manga feels a bit too… “Hey, this is the answer, in case you haven’t figured it out yet,” to me? I dunno how to put it.
Having said that, I love Confession of the Golden Witch so, so much. I think it’s a very valuable insight into Sayo’s state of mind and what actually drove her to planning the murders, and it’s absolutely heartrending to read. I just want to give her a hug so bad, the poor girl… 
And here’s the last batch of new music.
