Rose Guns Days - Last Season General Discussion

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#1

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General discussion topic for Last Season of Rose Guns Days. Feel free to discuss the entirety of Rose Guns Days, but please tag references to outside works with [spoiler] tags, providing adequate context for the spoiler in parenthesis.

While this topic will serve as a general hub for discussion of the Season, if a conversation ends up flowing in a certain direction, don’t be afraid to continue it in your own topic! Keep the “reply as linked topic” button beside each post in mind.

What would you rate this Season?

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Rose Guns Days General Discussion
#2

Rose Guns Days season 4 is an exciting finale to the RGD story.

Starting with the second half of 1949 no character is safe from Gabriel’s revenge plan. The pudding scene with Yuuji is particularly memorable because despite seeing it coming, I was still caught off guard by how brutal it was. Oliver and Yuki’s deaths were both suitably tragic and ironic. The entirety of the later half of 1949 and a good chunk of 1950 as well were just dripping with dramatic irony, especially in any scene involving Richard and Gabriel.

1950 is absolutely fantastic, but it does suffer slightly from being the shortest arc. It only introduces one new important character (young Jeanne), and the conflict is already set up from the previous year, so it doesn’t need as much time. However it could have used a touch more resolution for individual characters at the end, as well as some more interactions with the various forces of protagonists that team up, particularly Leo, Zel, and Allan.

Putting the protagonists on a boat at the end of their arcs so that Rose could maintain the focus as the center of the story was smart. Bringing them all back for the final conflict was also smart. The highlight of this arc probably wasn’t even the final battle (though that was fantastic) but instead the sniping battle against Keith. This is the third time in the story characters have been pinned down by a sniper. The first time Stella claimed that if Leo was there he could have saved the day. Keith, an expert sniper could do nothing. Allan, the partner Keith could do nothing, even against Keith himself. So how could Leo save the day? Well the method he used was fantastic, a tad unrealistic, but set up and foreshadowed in such a clever way that leaves you just thinking, “yeah Leo could do that”.

As for the final battle itself for me the highlight was the Wandering Dogs vs Maurice. The wandering dogs fights are always more interesting as they have to use strategy to defeat their opponents, and this fight showed they still have tricks up their sleeves. Having the fight take place in front of Oliver’s grave was a nice touch that really increased the sense of catharsis of them finally getting justice for Oliver.

The entire large scale battle was well done, and the tactics that brought victory to Rose’s side were all believable. It was a conflict that brought nearly the entire cast into play and was a fitting climax to the tale.

Gabriel’s demise was also phenomenal. Gabriel was a manipulator, a man behind the curtain, and the fact that he was never brought into center stage to challenge the protagonists was very fitting, and something I wish would be done more often. Butler attempting to use Richard to kill Gabriel far more fitting than any fight with Rose or Leo could have been. The fact that Butler himself kills him after Richard loses only makes it better. And Ryukishi used a single small Umineko reference to make the scene even more painful for those who have read his earlier works.

The final nice touch for this season was the reveal about Julie. It both gives a nice resolution to Rose and Leo’s tale (though others such as Zel don’t get any real conclusion) and recasts the importance of the story itself. Ryukishi likes working within frames, and he also likes holding off on the true nature of those frames until the end of the story. While this reveal didn’t add as much re-read value as Umineko’s did, it was still a welcome twist to breath a little more life into the tale at the very end.

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#3

Right, it’s high time that I could vent about this season that I am somewhat conflicted on. For simplicity I’m going to group everything into good, bad/meh and ugly.

The good:

Jeanne: I always found her character to be interesting. The way she cherishes the remnants of Japanese culture in this alternate 21st century was always fascinating to me. Although she misses the culture she doesn’t exactly whine and moan (like your stereotypical elderly character would) and seeing her for the first time as a lively young woman was interesting to see. She was always a fighter from a young age.

Leo: I don’t think I have to explain this. It was necessary to have his character be absent in season’s 2 and 3 but it was equally necessary to have him return. A fun and interesting character and I don’t care how overpowered he is (although Cyrus did kick his ass in the chapel.)

Keith vs Alan AKA ‘Y U KILL MUH WAIFU!, the visual novel’: The only misunderstanding storyline that doesn’t make you cringe out loud, although that’s probably because it’s Gabriel pulling the strings from behind the scenes with his troll face. It was emotional and although I would have preferred that Alan survived rather than Keith I don’t really mind the way it played out in the end for them.

Richard vs Rose: Richard’s character is definitely a ‘fallen hero’ done right. He shows how basing everything on factual evidence and worst case scenarios can really drive you into the ground. Here you can see a couple of the themes from umineko creeping in such as ‘spinning the chessboard around’ and ‘understanding the heart’ which Rose was able to do when, deep inside her heart, she knew that the GDS weren’t responsible for Stella and Yuuji’s deaths, despite all of the ‘evidence’ saying otherwise.

The bad/meh:

The final battles (the battle of the graveyard and richard vs gabriel):
In terms of the battle of the graveyard I have mixed feelings. There were a lot of storylines to tie up but it felt really… contrived and a bit anticlimactic. The jumping between Caleb, Miguel and Alfred, Zel, Charles, Nina and maurice (I’ll get to that later), Keith and Alan, and Rose, Cyrus, Leo and Richard, felt a bit all over the place.

Next is Richard vs Gabriel: Although Richard getting completely crubstomped made sense as Gabriel was an experienced soldier, it felt completely heartbreaking to watch Richard die like that, I just felt sorry for the poor bastard.

There is also the fact that it is implied that Meijiu has Butler’s sister killed which is a fucking dick move considering that he had lost his sister last year. I kind of respected Meijiu’s character until then but that completely vanished when that happened. Perhaps he could have taken Ange hostage rather than outright kill her in order to get revenge on Gabriel?

The Ugly

Oliver’s death… so badly executed and it was so obvious that Ryukishi was obviously trying to find a reason for the wild dogs to still be relevant in the story. It was done at the same time as Meixue’s death which was really dramatic in comparison to Oliver’s death which felt shoehorned in in order to have the wild dogs to have a final battle for themselves. Perhaps it’s because I liked Oliver’s character but urgh the salt I feel from his death is overwhelming.

Overall although I do recommend Rose Guns Days to anyone who hasn’t read it yet, I do feel that this season could have been better. From what I can tell Ryukishi was slightly getting tired of this story so he wanted to quickly end it. I give this season a 7/10 and overall the game an 8/10

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#4

The thing I find interesting about this story is that there are barely any plot twists. It’s a really straight-forward storytelling. Unlike Higurashi and Umineko, where twists play such a big role, RGD manages to stay interesting without them. The surprises come naturally, barely anything is hidden. The only thing I can think of is that Julie is Rose’s and Leo’s granddaughter.
That is really fitting to the story as well. The surprises in real life are often straight-forward and I get the feeling RGD wants to be “real-life-like”.

I personally loved the fact that Meijiu most likely killed Ange. That makes sense for his character. After season 2 where he sent Rose off to die with Caleb you forget that he is capable of sinister actions. Especially after his reaction to Meixue’s death. But killing Ange brings him back to the cunning person I feel he is. Of course he realised that Ange was the easiest way to get revenge on Gabriel. I don’t doubt for a second that he’d do it. When times call for it, he cares for his close ones and if it’s needed, he doesn’t hesitate to draw the blade.

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#5

Yeah I never thought that Haibara and Hayashibara sounded so similar until that plot twist right at the end.

Yeah I suppose so about it being in Meijiu’s character. To be honest I completely forgot about the dragon stuff that Meijiu did to manipulate Rose in season 2.

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#6

Honestly what made me love the last season so much was how realistic it was in terms of how none of the characters have this super amazing plot armor (unless you are motherfucking Leo Shishigami). It was filled with so many tense moments and the pacing was tightly nit. The sheer amount of emotional gut punches in the last season cemented it in my mind.

That said, it is not without flaws. I wasn’t particuraly impressed with how certain characters like Meiju’s sister were only there to die and to develop Alan as a character. It is actually a big shame in that sense. And I have my grievances with Gabriel as a character-where he is more of a force of nature than a character to me.

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#7

Does anyone know what the short story from Rose Guns Days - The Best is about. I hope it adds some more resolution to some character stories. For example I had expected we would get to see how Keith was going to deal with living with the knowledge that he had been putting the blame for Stella and Yuuji’s dead on the wrong persons and how he was responsible for Alan’s dead.

From my understanding the short story also hasn’t been translated yet. Is this correct?

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#8

I don’t really mind that the end Keith’s story/life was open ended to be honest. If it wasn’t it’d make me feel even worse for him.

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#9

From what I’ve heard it’s about Julie traveling back in time to interview Rose and the rest of Primavera in person… yeah I don’t think it’s canon, but if you ignore the impossibility, it might be quite a sweet story.

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#10

I can confirm that’s the thing! xD It’s… just an omake type story…

Leo hits on Julie yeah welp.

Primavera also asked about the future Julie is from.

Rose is the one that picks up on Julie being out of place.

Meryl and Stella play with Julie’s phone and… this happens

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#11

Oh my god that image will be stuck in my head til the day I die :shock::love:

#12

I have never been so turned on my life before.:ryukishi::glug:

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#13

I have a number of criticisms of this season.
Way too much felt forced. The first thing that comes to mind is the fight between Cyrus and Leo. Leo, who’s been a complete badass since the beginning, and unrivalled as a fighter, with Meiju being the sole exception, just randomly lost to another character who’s been there since the beginning and never even did anything particularly impressive. I don’t think Leo just needs to be some kind of invincible god, but I see no reason for him to have lost to Cyrus there, it just felt unnatural. Seemed like it was trying too hard to set up Rose shooting Cyrus, which I don’t think had any major impact that wouldn’t have been accomplished just by having Leo beat Cyrus like you’d naturally expect.
The method the Wandering Dogs used to beat Maurice… would that work? Even if it was perfectly executed, I can’t imagine that working. Even if Charles managed to knock away the shot, which would have seriously hurt his hand by the way, which wasn’t mentioned (what else could he possibly have used other than his hand?), the angle of the shot couldn’t possibly have changed so much while maintaining enough velocity to shatter Maurice’s sunglasses.
That was all just semantics over the fight scenes to be fair, but those parts just felt too unnatural to not bring up.
The part about Julie being Rose’s and Leo’s granddaughter was forced too, I would say. Given how stories work, it’s something most people would consider right off the bat, but it’s just unnecessary. I would argue that the story of RGD would actually have more impact if she had just been one of the “future countrymen” after all. There’s also the part, in season 3 I believe, where Toratsugu suggests the possibility of Jeanne wanting Julie to choose the next leader of Primavera. It’s a bit too much to say “I don’t expect you to choose the next leader” and then turn around later and say “I expect you to be the next leader.”
Lastly, was the finale, Butler shooting Gabriel. I do like how it was Butler in the end who was the one to finish him off, but it was anticlimactic. Easily the biggest villain in the whole series, just gets shot unseen and unheard by anyone, and his crimes go largely unnoticed by many. That can be good in it’s own way, but the exact same thing happened to Richard. After such a large build-up to the finale, it all ends in a very unspectacular way. Maybe it’s because of this, but unlike most fictional stories, I wonder why RGD had to be told. I can’t quite figure out why I think that about RGD and not anything else, but maybe that sort of ending played a part.
Though to quickly talk about something I liked from it - it kept up the sort of holy, almost religious atmosphere the finale of most of Ryukishi’s works contain. Having that recurring theme throughout pretty much all of his work is something I’ve continued to enjoy.

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#14

It was a hand to hand fistfight though and it came down to who was the strongest, Cyrus on first glance is a lot more built than Leo but has . From a narrative perspective I agree that the fight was a little bit worthless in the long run.

The rest I agree with to be honest. Leo and Jeanne randomly running into the wild dogs was a bit too much of a coincidence. too.

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#15

I just finished Rose Guns Days and I guess it’s time to write down my thoughts for Last Season.

To be honest, I started to hate Richard throughout this Season. I know one would say I should hate Gabriel for this Operation, but no, I actually dislike Richard for his stupidity. I simply don’t like the fact that he acted through his Emotions and not with Reason.

The thing that had me completely in this Season was the fight Alan vs. Keith right before 1950. It just hurt to see these two War buddies, that, together survived the colds of Siberia in War and even fought together before the War, fight. The track that played here Days-Never to Return, perfectly emphasized this scene and helped to get me in a sad mood. Like Hell the title is perfectly fitting for this :crying:. The fact that Keith “lost” made me even sadder (even though I love his white hair after that even more :blushing:).

Now in 1950, like totally. Oh god i haaaaaaaate Tequilla, like totallyyyyy. That guy just constantly pissed me off. Well I have nothing much to say except that I liked how everything lead to the final.

The graveyard final, I liked this large scale battle it was cool to see most of the cast to fight for the sake of a new Primavera, but I kinda dislike the fact that it jumped from Rose’s group, to Caleb’s group, to the Wandering Dogs and to Alan and Keith. And here of course the fight between Alan and Keith stuck the most with me, that end to it was like the saddest thing I could imagine for both of them, the moment Keith wanted Alan to open his eyes, oh god :crying:. It was kinda predictable that Richard could get away, but I certainly didn’t expect it that he showed up before Gabriel and tried to kill him. I lost all my respect I had for Meijiu after guessing that he killed Butlers Sister so that he can get Revenge for Meixue through Butler and Richard, but I liked the fact that Gabriel died without the most even knowing that he was the mastermind behind all this, what a fitting end for him.

The plot twist that Julie actually is Rose’s and Leo’s Granddaughter blew my mind away, that was something I didn’t expect. Hmm the whole ending part was kind of unsatisfying for me, everyones fates were open and then the reveal that Julie should become next Madame.

Here’s my score for anyone who cares:
Screenshot (169)

Hmm, overall I enjoyed reading RGD alot, like, a whole lot, it definitely is one of the best Vns I’ve ever read. Last Season certainly had some flaws but I can oversee them.

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#16

I wouldn’t say everyone’s fates were open. Wild dogs probably used Maurice’s death as an opportunity to get on with their lives, we know what Leo and Rose ended up doing :ryukishi:, Wayne ended up having children with someone (Meryl is my headcanon) and becoming Jeanne consigliere. Only person who I would say had an open fate was Keith but he probably either got killed by Meijiu or commiting suicide.

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#17

Alright, my last post was way too critical, so I feel the need to say that I really enjoyed RGD overall. Probably around the second half of season three and the beginning of season four, Alan and Keith’s time to shine, would have to have been my favourite. Alan’s got to be my favourite character :crying:.

What impacted me the most in this season was obviously Alan’s death, though not just because he’s my favourite character. The reason is Xiaolan. The budding friendship and bond of trust between this Japanese man and this Chinese girl who can barely talk even in her own language was something beautiful. And the fact that it was Alan, with his past with Meixue and Meijiu, and thinking about how he talked about how Japanese and Chinese people couldn’t understand each other, gave it the highest possible impact. Keith’s reaction hit like a ton of bricks too. In a way, Alan had always been the bridge between the Chinese and Japanese, and I’m sure that just for a moment, Keith and Xiaolan were able to share the same sorrow.

Why would Leo let the fight get to that point? We see time and again that skill trumps power. Take the massive Chinese guy from the beginning of season two who challenges Leo, only to get sent flying. Then Meijiu comes along and it’s a tie! (Some might even say Meijiu won.) I won’t compare Cyrus to some random extra, but it shows that fistfights aren’t just about who’s the strongest, and that Leo knows not to let it get to that point in the first place.

I’ve got the same headcanon
Conspiracy: That shit’s boring, it was actually Zel.

Thank you all for attending the AA (Alan-fans Anonymous) first bi-annual meeting.

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#18

075

#19

Before I start, let me just praise this amazing opening song:

Spectacular.

Now, where do I start?

The Last Season finally brings us young Jeanne who is a very likable character (reminiscent of Rose in many ways, but also more powerful in many ways as well). It is amusing, actually. Early in the story, Jeanne was described as the woman who took down Madam Rose of Primavera and took her place. This left me feeling anxious about the future since I was rooting for Rose as a leader and Primavera. However, given the drastic change in Primavera, and Rose being out of commission, I found myself rooting for Jeanne. Funny how things turn out, huh?

The early part of the last season was incredibly frustrating for many reasons. Not only because literally everyone was doing EXACTLY what Gabriel wanted (f*ck that inhumane monster btw), but because there were so many meaningless deaths. I know this sounds contradictory since I initially wished for more consequences in Rose Gun Days, but…not like this! Oliver, Yuki, Yuuji, just why? That was so, so awful. And then Gabriel manipulating Richard, Cyrus, Keith, goddammit! It was painful to read, to be honest with you.

Richard. Damn it, Richard. I totally get how Yuuji’s death was the breaking point for him. I honestly hate Richard for his actions, but at the same time, I can’t hate him completely because he pretty much lost everything and he’s blinded by sadness and rage.

Cyrus, on the other hand, I lost a lot of respect for in the last season. I can see how a person can be loyal to someone (and I get that he was friends with Richard for a long time), but in the last season Cyrus doesn’t even flinch at any of the orders given by Richard. Sacrifice young wolves like Oliver? Sure, no big deal. Kill Leo? Why not? It’s like Cyrus lost every single bit of moral code that he had in the past, and replaced it with sheer obedience, like a puppet with no mind of his own. It is quite pathetic, and I expected more from him.

Keith? Keith is despicable and hypocritical. Again, much like with Richard, I understand why he’s enraged. But Keith literally killed Yuki in front of Alan, and yet has the audacity to blame Alan for Stella’s death? He goes on to assume that Alan, the guy who saved his life in the past, is associated with the bad guys, and then tries to kill him over and over again. How do you lose so much trust in your partner so fast? I could understand if Keith hadn’t known Alan for a long time, and if he had been with Stella for months, but the novel emphasizes Keith’s relationship with Alan and how Alan saved Keith. Furthemore, Keith and Stella don’t even spend that much time together. For Keith to be able to turn his back so easily on Alan is simply awful and makes him one of the most irritating characters in the story.

Okay, enough about the negative stuff.

The last season also features the return of Leo, which I actually welcomed, before it felt like a ray of light within an otherwise bleak story. I enjoyed the parallels with Leo meeting Jeanne in the same way he met Rose, and being employed as a bodyguard once more.

Zel also returns, which I LOVED. I totally expected her to join forces with Leo and others, and I was quite pleased with the outcome. In general, I appreciated the comeback of characters like Caleb, Miguel and all of them joining together to fight for the new Primavera. I felt it was a great idea and made a lot of sense.

However, here is my biggest gripe with the season:

  • It is far too short.

The final season would have benefited so much from being longer for so many different reasons:

  1. Jeanne becoming the new Madam. I felt that the whole process of Leo meeting Jeanne and then within a single day deeming her fit as Rose’s replacement was quite rushed. I think we needed to see more of Jeanne before declaring her as a fitting successor for Rose. I also wish we actually got see young Jeanne as the new Madam of Primavera. It’s as if the story ended abruptly and we never got proper closure.

  2. The whole conclusion to the final fight felt rushed. Alan and Keith crash on the ground, Alan is supposedly not moving…and then what? Nothing. No legit outcome or explanation of what actually happens. Next, Butler is suddenly willing to betray Gabriel because something happened to Ange? What happened? We never find out and are never given an answer. I’ve seen some people assume that Meijiu killed Ange, however, I prefer to believe that Meijiu used some secret Chinese drug that allowed them to fake Ange’s death. I refuse to believe that after losing his own sister that Meijiu would sacrifice Butler’s sister.

  3. No epilogue of any sort and we never find out what happens with the rest of the cast. Meryl? Zel? Charles? Nina? Keith? Alan? Meijiu? Weren’t we supposed to learn who was Wayne’s wife? What the heck? Where is that damn epilogue? Why don’t we get more scenes of Jeanne getting advice from Rose? Jeanne rebuilding Primavera? Felt like such a missed opportunity.

  4. I really liked the twist of Julie actually being Rose’s descendant (I should have realized that at some point, but it never crossed my mind). I did find it odd they would hand such a powerful role to a woman just like that. However, WE NEVER GET TO SEE JULIE ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN THESE ACTIVITIES. The final scenes of Rose Gun Days imply Julie is actually doing important stuff but we never actually get a glimpse of that. Julie is apparently going to meet someone important, and then everything suddenly ends. The more I think about this, the more I NEED an extra season of Rose Gun Days that provides an epilogue for all of the characters and sheds some more light on Julie’s adventures in the future. Ryukishi, why did are you doing this to me?

Ahem, sorry about that rant.

Even though I have mixed feelings about the last season, and although I felt it was lacking in terms of its conclusion, I truly enjoyed Rose Gun Days. In all honesty, before I started reading it, I was highly skeptical given how drastically different it was from other Ryukishi works and seeing how action-packed it was. However, Ryukishi and Rose Gun Days surpassed my expectations and delivered an excellent story full of lovable characters and developments.

Thank you all for reading my posts, and I hope you enjoyed them.

Here’s a small bonus:

TOP 3 FEMALE CHARACTERS:

  1. Rose
  2. Yuki
  3. Stella

TOP 3 MALE CHARACTERS:

  1. Wayne
  2. Alan
  3. Caleb

Honorable mentions to Meijiu, Miguel, Jeanne and Meryl.

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#20

Everyone knows Wayne had children with Miguel :ryukishi:

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