Spoiler-free general discussion topic for Episode 5: End of the Golden Witch of Umineko When They Cry. Episode 5 refers to volumes 10-12 of the manga, and was not adapted by the anime series.
In the interests of protecting those who are reading Umineko for the first time, any references to events that happen later in the story are strictly forbidden. We take spoilers very seriously, and ignoring this rule could potentially result in a ban.
While this topic will serve as a general hub for discussion of the Episode, if a conversation ends up flowing in a certain direction (eg. You start talking about the series as a whole rather than this particular Episode), donât be afraid to continue it in your own topic! Keep the âreply as linked topicâ button beside each post in mind.
This Episode may be blasphemy in the eyes of those who uphold the honor of the Golden Witch, but god damn is it fun. Beatrice was much more subtle and elegant with the presentation of her gameboards. But when Lambdadelta is the game master, the gloves are off. All the intricacies of the construction of the gameboards are laid bare, and the playing field is evened with the introduction of Erika Furudo, master detective. Beatriceâs game or not, it was ridiculously exciting and stimulating watching Erika battle it out against Lambdadeltaâs mystery.
Ironically, this Episode introduces a lot of⌠Unexpected romance to the story. After bringing her to the brink of death, Battler is finally willing to try and understand Beatrice and where sheâs coming from. A twisted romance where Battler wishes to discover Beatriceâs heart now that their fight is over. Thereâs also the introduction of characters like Dlanor A Knox, who represents Knoxâs Decalogue and adds a bit of romance to the mystery of Umineko through her dialogue with Battler. It becomes all too apparent that Umineko is a love letter to detective fiction; Ryukishiâs passion for the genre shines through the writing here. Even though characters like Erika personify the relentless side of the detectiveâs pursuit of the truth, Battler comes to represent a more romantic aspect, where we become more concerned with the motive than the method. It creates a really interesting dynamic.
The metaphysics of Umineko really start baring all in this Episode, especially with regard to the layers. Thereâs still some ambiguity, but a little bit of critical thinking enables you to see past the farces. That whole scene where Battler is fighting to protect the honor of Beatrice and Natsuhi in Kinzoâs quarters? Well, by the mere fact that Beatrice and Battler werenât players of the game at that point in time, we can infer that these pieces arenât being controlled by the real Battler and/or Beatrice, but are merely acting in accordance with their roles as pieces, being manipulated by Lambdadelta. When you realise all the flowery talk Battler and Beatrice are spilling is actually by the will of Lambdadelta, you uncover an interesting little glimmer of truth here. Why would Lambdadelta go to so much effort to demonstrate something like Beatrice begging for death in front of Battler? Thatâs not the real Beatrice, so why? It seems awfully reminiscent of the conclusion of Episode 4, which resulted in Beatrice regressing into a doll here, where she eventually meets her demise.
This Episode isnât part of the core mystery of Umineko. Nothing is revealed here which is essential to solve Beatriceâs riddle. That said, this Episode serves an important purpose of arming the reader with tools that can help uncover the truth. Not essential clues, but lots of helpful hints. The fact that Battler was able to reach âthe truth of this storyâ and wield the golden truth is proof that all the clues have been presented, and itâs possible to uncover the truth behind Beatriceâs story. Well, are you any closer to grasping that truth yet? Now would be a great time to go over the events of the first four episodes again in the hopes of finding an answer for yourself. At least, Iâd be more comfortable saying that if you were reading as it was released and had 6 months until the next Episode. But if you share Battlerâs determination to solve the mystery, it may be worth going back once more. Read the manga or something!
Episode 6 is next, featuring Battler as the Game Master for the very first time. This Episode will prove that Battler has reached the truth of Beatriceâs story, and will begin to close in (arguably) the most core mystery of the story. If youâre no closer to reaching the truth, this next Episode may be able to give you one more push. Either that, or it will hopefully confirm or deny the answer youâve found.
This Episode is more fresh in my mind after having read the Manga, but it holds a very special place in my heart. Might even be my favourite Episode of the entire series.
I love this episode so much. It sets up Chiru perfectly and is such a fun ride all the way through. Erika and Dlanor are both amazing characters, and seeing the voyager witches take a more central role was nice since theyâre among my favorites as well.
Having the suspicion focus on Natsuhi is a great throwback to the first episode, and she ends up being the first adult we end up getting a clear insight into. Through the separate positions of Battler and Erika we get to observe how different approaches to the mystery will lead you to different answers. And Ryukishi makes it very clear that he far prefers one over the other.
The ??? segment is up there as one of my top three favorite chapters of the entire novel. The tea party with Virgilia and Dlanor is interesting (albeit a bit longer than it needed to be) and directly influenced the way I view mysteries; thanks Dlanor! Right afterwards Battler basically gives you a rundown of how to âcorrectlyâ approach the mystery of Umineko, and sure enough he solves it in no time. Battler learned something precious in these few scenes and itâs that very âsomethingâ that Umineko so desperately tries to convey. The fight scene afterwards is pure hype. It gives you enough hints to solve the episode on your own, and solving this episode is a big cornerstone in understanding what went on in earlier episodes.
As far as Iâm concerned, there is no better point in time to go back and try to solve Umineko than right now. One could argue that between Episode 4 and 5 is a good one as well, but itâs a lot easier after Episode 5, since this is where Umineko really starts becoming a âstory about storiesâ and tells you what it wants from you as the reader. Itâs still easy to get lost after Episode 4, but if you have love, Episode 5 will nurture it and give you that guarantee youâre longing for.
Also, Dlanor really is great, isnât she?
(General Umineko Spoilers) Gotta say though, this episode has some of the most misleading and evil unreliable narration Iâve ever seen. Ryukishi did say there was a âtrapâ in this episode but holy crap his traps are insane. Battler never seeing Shannon and Kanon together is an important point in the first four episodes, and watching as he acknowledges both of them separately here can REALLY bring you off track. But if you believe hard enough in the theory and never stop thinking youâll reach the answer; that Battler was an accomplice in this episode, aiding in Yasuâs spiel. Took me a while to figure out what the hell was up with that, especially seeing as how Erika, the detective, is right there as well.
However this episode also has one really fantastic hint to make up for that. (Umineko Spoilers) Erika asks for the door to be closed, indicating to the servants in general. Then both Shannon and Kanon respond with a simultaneous yes, and both go together to close the door. Combine this with the latter parts of the episode hammering in that Erika is the detective and thus Battlerâs viewpoint is no longer reliable and you can figure out what was going on in this episode. I think this particular detail was a really fantastic hint that Ryukishi put in.
I apologize if this is the wrong place to ask this but I consider myself a pretty recent fan of Umineko and Ryukishi07. I just finished Episode 5, and from what people are saying if you think a bit about the earlier episodes, you can solve the mystery right away. My question is: Is there a moment in the novel where the mystery becomes obvious and the characters actually talk about it and explain it or does it actually require some thinking because I usually try not to think too hard while reading a VN just so that I donât ruin the surprise but since this is the first time Iâm playing WTC (aside from the fighting game), I donât really know the structure of the story. Thanks in advance.
If youâre asking whether or not a complete answer is revealed later on⌠yes and no, Iâd say. It does eventually explain everything in detail, but some fans find the explanation in the novel a bit vague and hard to follow unless youâve already been thinking about it a lot or you go back and reread episodes. I donât want to encourage you to stop thinking, but if you read all of the VN and still donât get it then there are a few chapters in the manga that explain in a bit more of a concrete way. You might understand the novelâs answer though. Reactions are mixed.
If youâre asking whether or not the answer has already been discussed between the characters in EP 1-5, there have been many conversations that border on it and hint at it throughout it all, and I think some of the scenes in EP 5 are particularly close.
I see, thanks a lot. Iâve been trying to pay attention to the details since I heard the mystery was quite hard if you donât but again as I stated earlier I didnât want to ruin the surprise if it was revealed. From what I can tell by your explanation, it really depends on how much attention to detail a person has , so Iâll just keep reading and try to puzzle things as I go.
Hi @Butcher! I donât think Iâve seen you around the forum before! Are you new? If you are, why donât you head over and introduce yourself to the rest of the forum! Weâre friendly, I promise!
And to answer your question, yes! But like @AMF said, the mystery can quite complicated, so just keep reading and thinking! If you check out our other Umineko spoiler free topics you can see all of our theories, as well as telling us your own! Solving Uminekoâs mysteries are a lot easier when you have others to help talk and theorize with!
(If you think you know the answer, post it in a spoiler tag with given context =P)
Though more generally, Iâd like to hear you guysâ thoughts on some of the following:
Was this anything like you expected Episode 5 to be?
Has this episode changed your perception of Beato? If so, how?
Do you enjoy Erika as a character? What do you think of her approach to the mystery?
What do you think of Knoxâs decalogue? Do you share Battler and Dlanorâs thoughts on it?
Do you think Dlanor and Virgiliaâs metaphors for the relationship between the writer and reader of a tale are accurate? And does it affect how you see Umineko or the metaworld plot as a whole?
Why do you think Lambda and Bern are doing what theyâre doing in this episode?
Do you feel sympathetic towards Natsuhi? And if so, why, despite all she did?
Riddle: I donât know, I really donât. Iâd have to go over the reds again, but that seems really airtight.
Was this anything like you expected Episode 5 to be?
No.
Has this episode changed your perception of Beato? If so, how?
Not really. We establish her reasons for her actions were not as rotten as what we may have thought, but I kind of expected this. Episode 4 hinted at it a bit.
Do you enjoy Erika as a character? What do you think of her approach to the mystery?
I donât hate her, but she largely hasnât landed with me yet. I donât feel like I can answer the latter.
What do you think of Knoxâs decalogue? Do you share Battler and Dlanorâs thoughts on it?
Iâm not sure I 100% know where they stand. Was it that it often is best, but not always? I guess I would agree.
I feel opposed to it conceptually but generally not as much in execution. In general, abiding would be beneficial to the audience, I think, but perhaps not always.
Do you think Dlanor and Virgiliaâs metaphors for the relationship between the writer and reader of a tale are accurate?
Perhaps.
And does it affect how you see Umineko or the metaworld plot as a whole?
Not as of yet.
Why do you think Lambda and Bern are doing what theyâre doing in this episode?
I donât know. I didnât really like them in this episode. They just seemed to act nasty the whole time.
Do you feel sympathetic towards Natsuhi? And if so, why, despite all she did?
I really hope that nobody here would be unreasonable enough to be sympathetic to Shion but not to Natsuhi, just let me get that out there.
This is tough. There is no mental gymnastics in the world that can justify what she did 19 years ago, but I canât bring myself to hate her. Itâs one of those things that would be easier to not have to think on.
Howâd you like the new soundtracks?
Uhhhh itâs generally not the thing I notice most but I do recall there being a couple of good ones.
Seriously, how amazing was that comeback!?
âŚI donât really understand the golden truth yet, so I think that may have hurt it a bit.
EDIT: That being said, I think the latter tea party, as well as the early parts of the episode, where the high points.
Iâll start with some first impressions and what I can immediately think of. There are a lot of things I wanna revisit and that needs time, so there will be at least one more post. Iâll announce at the end of this one what those things will be. Also, I think Iâll use Kariâs bulletin points as a guideline for first impressions.
But first, please a moment of silence for the Kanon=Shannon theory:
My Ep 4 theory. Might be wrong, there are more hints that it actually is Shannon behind everything, not Kanon. More to that at the end (well, kinda). Battler realizing his sin, forgiving Beatrice. Well, he realized the goddamn truth, so thatâs implied. And me disliking Erika. Well, more to that later.
Apart from perhaps being wrong on the identity of Beato, not really.
What does âenjoy as characterâ even mean? I appreciate the concept (in a talk with a forgetful friend of mine, we both called her an intentional self-insert Mary Sue, not made by Ryukishi mind you, but by Bernkastel), so I guess thereâs some enjoyment? I thoroughly despise her though, so I guess you could call it âlove to hateâ?
Regarding her approach to mystery, I once had that inner thought if Bern perhaps is some kind of reader avatar in a sense, since her motivation throughout the question arcs seem to align with that of a reader, and through her double, Erika, this is further cemented, though the scope is lessened to the type of reader that only cares about the who dunnit and the how dunnit. And while I myself planned to start my theoryfinding on the who dunnit, I still tried to keep the how dunnit AND the why dunnit in the back of my mind. Erika herself even said again that she only trusts the red and her own perspective and ignored everything else. But if you do that, it is so much less likely to find the truth.
Thereâs also something I wanna point out about her portrait. I think it perfectly describes her shortcomings. She sits in an armchair, signifying her standing as detective, but the chair itself is filthy and broken, and the background shows dead vegetation, signifying her utter lack of compassion.
I think I do share their views. The important thing to take home there is that itâs a tool, not some big holy thing you have to adhere to. Kinda reminded me how the view on the Prime Directive in Star Trek changed over the different series. I definitely used one of those rules when composing my theory for Umi. Was basically asking myself âIs there ample foreshadowing in ep 1 for this character to commit the crime?â (I think I used Knoxâ 8th?)
It depends from tale to tale. There are tales (viewed in the broadest sense, so meaning any kind of medium) that are written âwithout loveâ, with the sole intent to make money, but for those that are written âwith loveâ, I think that metaphor holds true. Usually an artist wants to express something with their art, and thatâs basically what that metaphor talks about. I already asked myself âwhat does Beato want to tell with this scene?â on multiple occasions, so probably not.
Itâs definitely interesting. I remember Zosonte saying recently that he expects them to be outerscope villains that stay that way and wonât interfere more directly, but that Ryukishi wants to make him fear that they might at some point. Well, heâll have a field day soon. Anyway, their motives. I think they really do want to relieve their boredom, I donât get the feeling they actually have much compassion for Beato or Battler. However, I think Virgilia is right in assuming that Beato saw this coming and thus invited them to give Battler that final nudge to solve the mystery. I think in a similar way she subconciously allowed Ange to enter her golden land. Either that, or Ange was permitted entry from Maria in ep 4, since at that point they seemed to be on an equal level.
What she did is straight up murder, no way around it. Sure, I understand her motive (and apparently that is called sympathy, these terms are confusing as heck), but I still contempt her for those actions. Well, rather, I generally dislike the idea of shaming/hating someone for whatever crime for all eternity, but I do want to see the culprit repent for their actions, something Natsuhi is shown doing.
See above.
Now, for my next post, or what will happen in my next post, I will see if I can construct a Kanon culprit theory for the fifth game (both the Natsuhi culprit theory and the Battler culprit theory are not true after all), and look at all the games if I can construct a Shannon culprit theory. For Shannon on her own Iâll have to look at the how dunnit as well, as I donât think that was discussed as detailed in the ep 4 topic. Iâll also look in detail at that letter puzzle.
Finally I wanna throw a question to all you fellow detectives: Natsuhi killing that one servant and most likely that baby and Rosa meeting Beatrice both happen in 1967 (the latter presumably). Coincidence?
If I recall correctly all that was said in EP 3 was that there was a person called Beatrice living in Kuwadorian in 1967. If that was the year Rosa met her or not is debatable, specially since we donât know Rosaâs age.
@VyseGolbez I thought I would like Erika a lot more than I currently do, personally. I donât have any reason for that other than instinct, which almost always succeeds for me.
I finished the episode! That was marvelous. I confess I found myself enjoying the episode as a story more than a mystery, suspending my disbelief in places and not worrying so much about the details. I had conflicted feelings â I wanted to cheer on Battler for preserving the illusion of Kinzo, even though I knew it was a lie and couldnât be defended forever. Whose side am I supposed to be on? Itâs like Beatrice said â weâre fighting on a battle on three fronts, which means you may temporarily ally with your enemies.
But I think everything comes back to âwithout love, it canât be seen.â Weâre supposed to find Erika, âthe intellectual rapist,â distasteful even as she fights the illusion of the witch, because she does it without love or understanding. Even when Battler was incompetent, overemotional, and folded too easily, he did everything with love. He didnât want to suspect his relatives or the servants because he looked at them with love, and the more he watched these people die around him, the more he loved them and mourned them.
So I wonder if thatâs what Beatrice wanted to âshowâ him, according to the reasoning that he survives the longest in all of the plotline murders. He still loves his family, despite all their flaws, despite his youthful desire to leave them all behind.
Beatrice also calls him a liar that doesnât keep his promises, which lends some weight to the theory that Battler made some promise six years ago and couldnât keep it because he left the family register. It could be the promise he made to Shannon to be her âknight,â since the knight image comes up a few times this episode. Shannon is also made suspicious because sheâs the only one who knows Natushiâs favorite season, but honestly, Iâm not sure how damning that is. After all, the card was only revealed when Natsuhi lifted the clock, and we only saw it from Natushiâs perspective.
I couldnât sustain the Kanon=Shannon theory this episode, alas. But I think my âBattler is Beatoâs sonâ theory is still strong, and has new support. The original Beatrice, the one Kinzo loved, died. Kinzo found a girl he believed to be her reincarnation â weâll call her Beato â and he had Beato raised in the hidden mansion. Beato is the woman Rosa met, and who died by falling off the cliff. But before she died, she had a child. Kinzo hoped this child would be the next reincarnation of Beatrice, and gave it to Natsuhi. When the child âdiedâ by falling over the same cliff, he could only laugh, assuming it was Beatrice was trying to escape him again. But the child didnât die. The child survived to be raised by Rudolf, and became Battler. And ultimately, in the Meta World, Battler does become the Golden Witch and Endless Sorcerer, so maybe he does have something of Beatriceâs spirit in him, after all.
Another thing that interested me this episode â Beatrice took responsibility for Natsuhiâs sin in âmurderingâ the child, almost as a service for her new master. She didnât become the proud, cackling Beatrice until it was clear Natsuhi was struggling to face what sheâd done. I think this is a hint to Beatriceâs true nature. She takes responsibility for the sins people donât want to admit, but she hasnât sinned herself. Sheâs trying to get Battler to see that, and has given him plenty of room and hints to establish that she isnât the true culprit.
EDIT: One more thing! Does anyone think theyâve solved the epitaph riddle yet? I think I got closer, with the hint that the keyword might be in English ⌠and I think I know where the âdoorâ to the Golden Land is, based on a clue from the fourth episode. But Iâm still not sure how to use the atlas.
Some nice contributions there, mimsy. However, I must press you on the âBattler is the baby that Natsuhi is pushedâ theory.
In an earlier episode, IIRC, Kyrie mentions that both she and Asumu got pregnant at around the same time, which wouldnât have been too long after this event. Now, if this aforementioned baby is Battler:
Somehow, a bizarre series of events lead this baby into Rudolfâs household somehow.
Asumu and Kyrie both lost their respective children. They are never mentioned, so they would almost certainly have died very early in life.
Now, you can easily blue me here: I canât prove that 1 didnât happen obviously, and you could say that Kyrie constructed a lie. But as much as I canât credibly argue this, it seems implausible.
A worthy counter, @Exalt! If itâs all right, Iâd like to use Knoxâs decalogue as a crutch for my thinking. Knoxâs 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Put another way: While itâs possible that a bizarre series of events led the baby of 19 years ago to Rudolf, and while itâs possible that Asumu and Kyrie both lost their children, the clues for it must be presented or it violates the spirit of fair play. So if Iâm going to make a claim like 'Battler is Beatoâs son and the baby from 19 years ago, â I need to produce support for those two points from the clues already presented to us.
Got it. Iâll start with the second point.
Asumu and Kyrie both lost their respective children. They are never mentioned, so they would almost certainly have died very early in life.
Where are the clues for this? Let me present the red truth from Episode 4.
Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumuâs son. He was unable to say he was born of Asumu in red, though he was able to say he was a Ushiromiya. If there is a child born of Asumu, it isnât strange at all to think something happened to the child. And it must have happened very early in life, or else Battler would remember. If Battler did remember another child growing up, that would be a vital clue not presented to us, and a violation of Knoxâs laws.
So do I think Asumuâs child died? Not necessarily. I think Asumuâs child never existed in the first place. Kyrieâs pregnancy would have created inheritance issues, and Rudolf was pressured to marry Asumu over Kyrie. But if Rudolf and Asumu adopted the baby from 19 years ago, they couldnât do it right away. Asumu would have to create the illusion that the child really was hers, and wait nine months, pretending pregnancy. That also explains why Battlerâs official birthdate is 18 years ago, the same year Kyrieâs child would have been born.
Now to the first point.
Somehow, a bizarre series of events lead this baby into Rudolfâs household somehow.
Where are the clues for this? Battler brings them up himself this episode. Rudolf always acts strangely before the first murders, and hints that he has something to tell Battler. In this episode, he even goes far as to say it involves Battlerâs birth. He is aso deeply amused at the letter from Beatrice naming Battler as Kinzoâs successor â he may know more about Beatrice than heâs letting on. In a previous episode, he even predicted his own death,with almost supernatural intuition. But it neednât be supernatural if he has some insight into Rokkenjimaâs mysteries, and the letter from Beatrice was enough to remind him.
Are there other explanations? Absolutely! I think youâre hinting at one yourself. Battler might be Kyrieâs child, switched in the hospital after Asumuâs died. I suspect Battlerâs birth is connected to Beatrice and the mysteries of Rokkenjima, but itâs only a hunch. Until I absolutely confirm it, both truths can co-exist in the cat-box.
